Will/Should Demar Derozan get into the HOF?

[tsherkin]

Fair enough, if you don't agree with the metrics that rank him highly then I suppose you might have him outside of that.

And again, I think that his accolades and so forth are more than enough to have him enshrined in the actual Hall.

My personal views on what the Hall should be are much more stringent.

[dhsilv2]

Fair enough, if you don't agree with the metrics that rank him highly then I suppose you might have him outside of that.

And again, I think that his accolades and so forth are more than enough to have him enshrined in the actual Hall.

My personal views on what the Hall should be are much more stringent.

They likely are. Demar is a bit short. But my question was just if he was as good or better than the standard as a player. It seems you think he barely is while I think he's a pretty strong hall guy. Demar again of course, would be the worst player in the hall.

[Drakeem]

25k points is a lot of scoring. I think so.

[Michael Jackson]

Yeah he absolutely will get in if he has a few more high level years. He is a HOF midrange scorer in a game that loathes that shot lol. That being said he stays healthy is a good professional, etc… plus a Kobe protege. The fact he basically got sponsored by Kobe when he was still in HS adds a lot to his legacy, and I get it. He is the less athletic version of Kobe (but still a great athlete he still easily dunks on people) but that game is not ideal…

He will but really shouldn’t the hall should be a bit more selective.

He also did something that will never ever be replicated…. Bird is the only one to do it in back to back games but he hit the last second shot to win a game in back to back nights, not only that those back to back nights were literally 2 different years. NYE and New Years Day. No one will likely ever be in that position again, as I said Bird was the only one to do it in consecutive games but not nights and the other outliers… pretty insane and honestly kinda cool to watch. So I guess for that maybe he deserves it

[tsherkin]

They likely are. Demar is a bit short. But my question was just if he was as good or better than the standard as a player. It seems you think he barely is while I think he's a pretty strong hall guy. Demar again of course, would be the worst player in the hall.

If that was your question, then I was misreading it. Like I said several times, I think he will get in. That means, at baseline, that he meets the standard for the actual Hall. Derozan too. I don't agree with the standard, but I expect both of them to be in the Hall. Demar might take a second vote or whatever, but if Mitch Richmond is in, I expect Demar to be at least eventually, and Lowry as well.

[TheGeneral99]

He will get in, which is sad to me in the sense of it being more a longevity award than a quality award. Dude was a massive playoff choker and took forever to become more than empty stats. Nice guy, hard worker but a slow learner on the court.

I tend to wish we had an NBA HoF that had more stringent criteria so we could celebrate greatness. If you acknowledge that the HoF is more of a career achievement award, then it's pretty clear that Demar should get in based on counting stats.

From a Toronto perspective, I think it's sad that you're sad. He was a strong advocate of the city and the Raptors and didn't want to leave. I don't think he's a slow learner, rather he is limited by his talent level and everything he gained was due to his very high work ethic, which if it weren't for hard work, he would not be sniffing 26,000 career points.

As for his choking in the playoffs, while that may be true, so did his friend Lowry who is considered one of the GOAT Raptors player. Lowry's reputation improved drastically after winning the Championship, which has much to do with playing with Kawhi. My 2 cents is if Lowry goes into the HOF, then so should DeRozan.

Don't call someone "sad" because they have a different opinion about a basketball player than you do.

I don't get the hard work low talent narrative. Not that I doubt Demar is a crazy hard worker, but we're talking about someone with a really high athleticism level. While he's not an all-time great athlete, he's in that next tier of extremely good athlete. Probably in the 99.99th percentile of basketball athletes. While he mastered an interesting skill set over time, his strange failure to extend his shooting range is pretty strange considering how many middling NBA players have successfully added 3s to their arsenal.

To your other point: while Lowry and Demar share the reputation of being playoff chokers, any closer scrutiny reveals it's true for Demar and false for Lowry. A lot of Lowry's choker reputation comes from 2 playoff series. 2015 when they got swept by Washington (Lowry had an elbow injury and probably shouldn't have played) and 2016 against Indiana (Raps won in 7 against a vastly inferior Pacers team). Lowry has had a few other series where he didn't shoot the ball well, but even when Lowry struggled to score, he's a super versatile player who can chip in with defense, playmaking, and hustle. Overall Lowry's playoff resume is fine with a couple of ugly duds. Lowry's massive on/off numbers hold up in the playoffs just fine (He's +9.5 for his career and was +25 in 2016). Demar on the other hand...it's kind of the opposite. It's hard to find a Demar Derozan playoff series where he wasn't dramatically bad. He's a pure scorer who never scored well in the playoffs. He's -11 in on/off for his playoff career and some years it was much worse. Basically Demar struggles to consistently score against bigger defenders in the playoffs, and every playoff opponent has found a way to turn Demar into a low-efficiency chucker.

I agree with your points on Lowry actually being a very effective playoff player. Lowry actually played very well against Brooklyn in 2014, Miami in 2016, Cleveland in 2016, Cleveland in 2016, in 2018 and the 2019 playoffs (particularly against the Bucks and Warriors). In 2020 he was awesome in that Celtics series that went 7 games. And as you pointed out, regardless of his shooting, Lowry is a positive impact whenever he's on the floor similar to a CP3.

However, I don't agree with you that Derozan is as elite of an athlete as you think. While he's a very good athlete, has very good hops/explosiveness, and very good balance, he was always a bit slow footed and never had the lateral quickness/agility/burst that other similar type of players like Jordan, Kobe, Wade etc. had to really get himself to the next level. As you pointed out, bigger longer defenders give Derozan issues and I think it's his lack of quickness and slow lateral movement that hurts him because he can't just blow by these guys like Jordan, Kobe or Wade. This is also why Derozan isn't a very good defender, he just doesn't have the lateral speed to really assert himself on that end.

I do agree with the other poster that Derozan has an insane work-ethic and has made significant improvements throughout his career and has maximized his potential. He's managed to improve most facets of his game and in recent years he's become extremely efficient and an above average facilitator, which is not the guy he was on Toronto.

As far as his 3 point shooting, definitely an issue, but guys like Wade and Butler were pretty similar excellent mid-range guys who could never be consistently good from the outside.

[Beethoven]

I always saw the HoF as profoundly impactful players to the history of NBA/basketball .. not just meeting a minimum threshold of stats

[cupcakesnake]

As far as his 3 point shooting, definitely an issue, but guys like Wade and Butler were pretty similar excellent mid-range guys who could never be consistently good from the outside.

We pretty much agree on most of that. I have no push back on your athleticism breakdown. He's a great athlete in the ways we most stereotypically think of basketball athletes (run! jump! dunk!) but a more thorough breakdown reveals Demar being held back more subtle areas due to his physical tools.

I do want to push back on the 3s though
Demar can only dream of being the 3-point shooter that Wade and Butler were/are. A casual glance at their career average attempts and percentages and you can make a case for Demar=Wade (but not Butler). Then Butler and Wade pretty consistently became closer to average 3-point shooters in the playoffs (both shoot 34%) where Demar gets way worse (21%). He's got a streak going now of being 0-10 on his most recent playoff 3-point attempts. Butler is a bad 3-point shooter, Wade is worse, Demar is basically off the map.

In terms of just looking at box-score stats in the regular season, you can squint and say that Demar looks only slightly worse than Jimmy or Wade overall for career. But then the playoffs come around and Demar's statistical footprint shrinks to that of a league average player (and his impact/on-off footprint suggests he was far worse than that).

[TravisScott55]

He is well liked, he will get in

[davey_wavy]

If he gets in, Dwight better get in

[zero rings]

When you consider his career, it's not really one you would expect to make the HOF. He's doesn't have the best advanced stats, or a championship. His Raptors stretch was his best in terms of playoff success, but he usually played poorly in the playoffs. He's closer to a Joe Johnson than any of the truly elite guys.

But what he does have is longevity, consistency, and being healthy basically all the time.

As a result of that and his now genuinely elite scoring ability he's 39th all time in points in the NBA. Everyone around that range until Lamarcus Aldridge is either in or will get into the HOF. Aldridge is 46th and won't make it, but Demar has a bunch of seasons to go still.

He got 1800 points last year, his scoring game is likely to age well cause it's not based on athleticism. He averaged 24 a game last year. If he conservatively managed to get 4000ish more points in his career he will be at around 26000. Which should land him right around 25th all time. There is absolutely no one who has not made the HOF with that many points.

Will he make it? Should he?

IMO people are highly underestimating how hard it is to be 25th all time in NBA scoring

It's not that we underestimate how hard it is, it's that we don't really care anymore. All that number means is that Derozan played a long time and took a lot of shots. That alone shouldn't make him worthy of the Hall of Fame.

20 years ago these milestones were a bigger deal, but people are growing wise to the actual value of these raw totals. If a player scored 25,000 points but never impacted winning in a meaningful way, does it really matter?

Who knows, maybe there will still be enough 70 year old sports writers to vote him in based on these archaic measures, but that window is closing.

[LakersLegacy]

He will because of his longevity. He's a modern iron man player who plays at least 70-75 games almost every year.

6 all-star appearances, an olympic gold medal and likely will finish top 25 on the all-time scoring list (currently ranked 44th with 21,685 points...with 2 more years of strong play he likely finishes with around 25,000 points at the minimum).

That being said, as a Raptor fan, if Derozan gets in and Lowry doesn't it would be a travesty because it was obvious that Lowry was the team's best player circa 2014-2018 during the Lowry-Derozan era.

Does he deserve to make it? I think it's borderline. He's in that Mitch Richmond, Adrian Dantley, Cheeks tier of players who were never superstar players that had playoff success, but were able to get in.

I personally would like to see guys like Chauncy, Lowry, Price, and Webber get in before Derozan ever does.

All those players should be in, better resumes than many that are already in. I know Divac is a global ambassador, but so are many of those guys as well.

[PhilBlackson]

I swear I say this with no hate, but I honestly wouldn’t vote him in. There’s just certain players that stand out in your mind each generation…I really don’t think he was ever that level of player.

[watch1958]

No, he shouldn’t. If I was putting together an all time great team, would I be satisfied with him compared to other guys.

I wouldn’t expect him to compete with MJ or LBJ, or Bird.

But there are so many guys I would take ahead of him without question. Bernard King. Marques Johnson. Walter Davis. Cedric Maxwell. Clyde Drexler. James Worthy. Jamaal Wilkes.

I don’t think I would even take him before Wiggins.

[Pokuokic]

Shawn Marion is better overall imo and had more overall productive seasons at both ends. DD is not HOF material imo.

[Ito]

Prolly shouldn’t and won’t derozan been decent but nothin really stands out.. I’m leaning towards that no ring no HOF these days there’s a lot of talent and these players all b balling you can’t have them all in there without having a ring or the accolades

[og15]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxgviNtyBG-/?igshid=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng==

Iguodala's tiered hall of fame is actually a good idea based on how relatively "easy" it is to get into the basketball Hall of Fame.

https://youtu.be/eo7Im1qbV-g?si=8XWUC6pcDqC09HWY

[Johnny Bball]

I'm not sure when people are going to catch on... you could project Derozan to be a lock for years to get into the HOF for years now. He cemented it last year. And given he's one of the best athletes in the NBA, he's likely playing a lot longer.

and he deserves to be in the HOF.

[Jadoogar]

His career numbers are going to end up being pretty good because he rarely missed games so i think he will get in.

He absolutely does not deserve to be in the hall of fame. He's the typical "hall of very good" player. Great regular season player, good longevity, poor playoff performer and success.

[Johnny Bball]

Prolly shouldn’t and won’t derozan been decent but nothin really stands out.. I’m leaning towards that no ring no HOF these days there’s a lot of talent and these players all b balling you can’t have them all in there without having a ring or the accolades

https://www.nba.com/stats/alltime-leaders

With the exception only 38 players ever have scored more? And he has years left to play?

Is the HOF only 30 players? This thread is just plain bad and raptors fans that never even understood what Derozan was are just tiring.

Again, the guy is a lock. And he is very likely to finish top 20 all time in scoring.