NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 5: So who's winning MVP? )

[Texas Chuck]

This must be the most annoying thread in the whole internet

IDK man. It's sooooo interesting bickering about who had worse teammates.

[Exp0sed]

I disagree, Nuggets got 48 wins and Mavs likely get 50+ with no consistent lineups.

For Jokic the argument was that the team was poor except Gordon and some of MPJ, for Luka it's that the team has been inconsistent and poor beyond Kyrie until the recent trade.

Since trade this Mavs team looks like they could top the West in the RS.

We might check how West has looked in 2022 and how looks in 2024. Not exactly the same bloodbath like this year. It's very questionable how many wins and which place would have Denver won, if the competition was as strong as this year. I doubt very much that Denver finishes better than 10th with 2022 roster in 2024. In 22 10th Spurs had 34 wins, this year 10th team will have around 46 wins.

Kyrie can win games on his own. You can not say that with any teammate Jokic had in 22. Now factor in the difference in win totals for each other mvp candidate compared to Jokic that year. The comparison is not valid.

win totals is one thing but that wasn't the deciding factor in 2022. the deciding factor was the fact the other semi-viable candidates meaning - Embiid and Giannis, both played considerably less games. Jokic individually, won more games than both Embiid and Giannis (because their teams won some game when they didn't play, which obviously isn't something they should be rewarded for as far as MVP cases go). had Giannis or Embiid (maybe even Booker) played the same amount of games as Jokic that season (or close to it) - Jokic wouldn't have won it.

[Swish77]

Didn't Joker say Luka deserves to be the MVP? After the Nuggets vs Mavs game?

[Special_Puppy]

Can we at least say that he's playing historically good offense?

Of course, who is arguing otherwise?

Those who are saying that he's not impactful player.

The argument (which has a lot of evidence behind it) is that Luka is a very empty calories player relative to other MVP candidates so his raw counting stats overstate his actual on court impact. The degree to which you think his raw counting states overstate his impact determines who you support for MVP

[AleksandarN]

Didn't Joker say Luka deserves to be the MVP? After the Nuggets vs Mavs game?

No he didn’t. There was a tweet saying he did. But no video ever came out. No video of clip of it anywhere. Some one made it up

[rzzzzz]

I blame the Commissioner, the player who dove onto his leg, and Embiid for his meniscus tear. It was understandable for Embiid to be tempted to return to the court too early after another injury, wanting to avoid being eliminated from MVP-All NBA consideration for missing the new minimum game participation standard, given that he was in the midst of his best year ever. Historic stats. But the big guy has got to come to grips with the fact that he is NOT durable. Personally, if he is coming back at close to 100% this late in the season, he should be thrilled at the chance of finally getting to show his best stuff in the playoffs, awards be damned. The team has been in a serious free fall without him, but a healthy Embiid is such a singular force that guys like Maxey, Kelly, Tobias and even Buddy have the chance to excel in complimentary roles, as no one is going to double them while the big guy in on the court.

[Bob8]

Of course, who is arguing otherwise?

Those who are saying that he's not impactful player.

The argument (which has a lot of evidence behind it) is that Luka is a very empty calories player relative to other MVP candidates so his raw counting stats overstate his actual on court impact. The degree to which you think his raw counting states overstate his impact determines who you support for MVP

If that's is true, explain to me how he has 4th best +/- in last 25 games, behind 2 Celtics players and very close to Jokic? Did Luka suddenly become totally different player or maybe something else changed for Mavs in this part of the season?

Btw. in first 7 places we have 5 Celtics players. It looks to me that impact runs deeply in Boston.

[Oscar9992]

Kyrie has missed 22 games, Exum 25 games, Green 21 games, Lively 19 games, and 37 games for Kleber. Despite all that, Luka kept his team’s playoff hopes alive when the injuries were at their worst, they’re now 2 games behind the 4th seed. When these guys were all healthy (apart from Green), the team is 19-6 (that’s a 62 win pace season). 34/9/10 on top of all that? Luka is my MVP for sure

[Exp0sed]

Of course, who is arguing otherwise?

Those who are saying that he's not impactful player.

The argument (which has a lot of evidence behind it) is that Luka is a very empty calories player relative to other MVP candidates so his raw counting stats overstate his actual on court impact. The degree to which you think his raw counting states overstate his impact determines who you support for MVP

I don't adhere to the +- issue, his stats aren't "empty calories" at all imo but he does lead the league is usage and has the ball in his hands an ourlier-ish amount of time and that def inflates his raw stats

if we compare him to Jokic, Jokic is barely at 29% usage and since he also scores more efficiently and turns the ball over less - while his raw stats seem less gaudy than Luka (and they are) - he's using up alot more possesions to post these stats and I suppose that means that in a sense, if we try to compare directly - his stats are a bit watered down, in comparison

meaning - when Luka uses up all these possesions, his team now can def convert at a pretty similar clip even if he had the ball in his hands a bit less, as evidenced by the Mavs not falling apart when he's not on the floor (as opposed to the Nuggets without Jokic)

i'll post the per 100 possesion numbers so it'll be easier to see:

Doncic Jokic

PTS 43.8 37.6
FGA 30.3 25.5
FTA 11.4 8
AST 12.5 13
REB 11.7 17.7
TOV 5.5 4.2

obviously per possesion numbers don't account for the higher usage, only for the differences in pace etc
Luka is at 36% usage while Jokic is only at 29%, for comparison - Kyrie is at 28%

Luka is either shooting or making the final pass (or turning over the ball) in 20% more possesions than Jokic
so in theory, he should have 20% more pts and assists, but he's far from that 20% in every category and obviously is behind in assists

that's the inflated part and some of that if def reflected in the impact stats, in which Jokic dominates Luka across the boards
so no, his calories aren't "empty" at all but they aren't as full as Jokic either, per play that runs through him - Jokic is doing more, Luka is just carry a heavier load. that's not an easy task for sure and it's an achievement in itself but bear in mind that if Jokic would be at 36% usage in the rs (he ups his usage to that range in the playoffs) - the Nuggets would be a rs powerhouse, Jokic would be averaging 33-13-11 and Nuggets would get to 60 wins and battle with RS Boston

[Bob8]

Those who are saying that he's not impactful player.

The argument (which has a lot of evidence behind it) is that Luka is a very empty calories player relative to other MVP candidates so his raw counting stats overstate his actual on court impact. The degree to which you think his raw counting states overstate his impact determines who you support for MVP

I don't adhere to the +- issue, his stats aren't "empty calories" at all imo but he does lead the league is usage and has the ball in his hands an ourlier-ish amount of time and that def inflates his raw stats

if we compare him to Jokic, Jokic is barely at 29% usage and since he also scores more efficiently and turns the ball over less - while his raw stats seem less gaudy than Luka (and they are) - he's using up alot more possesions to post these stats and I suppose that means that in a sense, if we try to compare directly - his stats are a bit watered down, in comparison

meaning - when Luka uses up all these possesions, his team now can def convert at a pretty similar clip even if he had the ball in his hands a bit less, as evidenced by the Mavs not falling apart when he's not on the floor (as opposed to the Nuggets without Jokic)

i'll post the per 100 possesion numbers so it'll be easier to see:

Doncic Jokic

PTS 43.8 37.6
FGA 30.3 25.5
FTA 11.4 8
AST 12.5 13
REB 11.7 17.7
TOV 5.5 4.2

obviously per possesion numbers don't account for the higher usage, only for the differences in pace etc
Luka is at 36% usage while Jokic is only at 29%, for comparison - Kyrie is at 28%

Luka is either shooting or making the final pass (or turning over the ball) in 20% more possesions than Jokic
so in theory, he should have 20% more pts and assists, but he's far from that 20% in every category and obviously is behind assists

that's the inflated part and some of that if def reflected in the impact stats, in which Jokic dominates Luka across the boards
so no, his calories aren't "empty" at all but they aren't as full as Jokic either, per play that runs through him - Jokic is doing more, Luka is just carry a heavier load. that's not an easy task for sure and it's an achievement in itself but bear in mind that if Jokic would be at 36% usage in the rs (he ups his usage to that range in the playoffs) - the Nuggets would be a rs powerhouse, Jokic would be averaging 33-13-11 and Nuggets would get to 60 wins and battle with RS Boston

Tell me, are Cs and Pgs normally have the same usage? Hint, maybe you should take in calculation different position those 2 play. I didn't see many Cs bringing ball over half court line, but maybe I'm wrong and Jokic is doing that too.

Jokic has far the most touches in Nba, understandable enough he's not ball handling much.

[Exp0sed]

Kyrie has missed 22 games, Exum 25 games, Green 21 games, Lively 19 games, and 37 games for Kleber. Despite all that, Luka kept his team’s playoff hopes alive when the injuries were at their worst, they’re now 2 games behind the 4th seed. When these guys were all healthy (apart from Green), the team is 19-6 (that’s a 62 win pace season). 34/9/10 on top of all that? Luka is my MVP for sure

Green and Kleber are replacement level players
Lively is a rookie

by comparison:
Murray has missed 21, KCP 6, AG 7

Murray's 21 is obviously a wash with Kyrie's 22 and while Exum has missed more than KCP and AG combined - they are the two best and main defenders in the Nuggets starting five. they are each more important to the Nuggets than Exum is to the Mavs

now in the new look Mavs all of Exum, Green, Kleber etc are bench players..Nnaji missed 20+ games and he's the only big body the Nuggets have on the bench aside from the corpse of DAJ. u think such woes haven affected the Nuggets as well? watch the games Braun and Watson are stepping in to play PF haha

Mavs had more injuries and obviously more turmoil leading up to the deadline and then the trades, but it's not as dramatic or as clear cut as some Mavs posters itt are making it out to be

[Bob8]

Kyrie has missed 22 games, Exum 25 games, Green 21 games, Lively 19 games, and 37 games for Kleber. Despite all that, Luka kept his team’s playoff hopes alive when the injuries were at their worst, they’re now 2 games behind the 4th seed. When these guys were all healthy (apart from Green), the team is 19-6 (that’s a 62 win pace season). 34/9/10 on top of all that? Luka is my MVP for sure

Green and Kleber are replacement level players
Lively is a rookie

by comparison:
Murray has missed 21, KCP 6, AG 7

Murray's 21 is obviously a wash with Kyrie's 22 and while Exum has missed more than KCP and AG combined - they are the two best and main defenders in the Nuggets starting five. they are each more important to the Nuggets than Exum is to the Mavs

now in the new look Mavs all of Exum, Green, Kleber etc are bench players..Nnaji missed 20+ games and he's the only big body the Nuggets have on the bench aside from the corpse of DAJ. u think such woes haven affected the Nuggets as well? watch the games Braun and Watson are stepping in to play PF haha

Mavs had more injuries and obviously more turmoil leading up to the deadline and then the trades, but it's not as dramatic or as clear cut as some Mavs posters itt are making it out to be

Those 3 replacement level players started 80+ games.

[Exp0sed]

Tell me, are Cs and Pgs normally have the same usage. Hint, maybe you should take in calculation different position those 2 play. I didn't see many Cs bringing ball over half court line, but maybe I'm wrong and Jokic is doing that too.

Jokic has far the most touches in Nba, understandable enough he's not ball handling much.

Jokic is the PG on the Nuggets, I don't know which games are u watching

edit: u are most def wrong, Jokic leads the ball up the court very frequetly

[Exp0sed]

Green and Kleber are replacement level players
Lively is a rookie

by comparison:
Murray has missed 21, KCP 6, AG 7

Murray's 21 is obviously a wash with Kyrie's 22 and while Exum has missed more than KCP and AG combined - they are the two best and main defenders in the Nuggets starting five. they are each more important to the Nuggets than Exum is to the Mavs

now in the new look Mavs all of Exum, Green, Kleber etc are bench players..Nnaji missed 20+ games and he's the only big body the Nuggets have on the bench aside from the corpse of DAJ. u think such woes haven affected the Nuggets as well? watch the games Braun and Watson are stepping in to play PF haha

Mavs had more injuries and obviously more turmoil leading up to the deadline and then the trades, but it's not as dramatic or as clear cut as some Mavs posters itt are making it out to be

Those 3 replacement level players started 80+ games.

they did

and Reggie Jackson started 21 games, Justin Holiday started 9, Braun started a couple, Watson started in 4 or 5
i'd say Nuggets had about 40 starts from replacement level players. yes, 40 isn't 80 it's exactly half, but 40 games over the course of a season isn't a dramatic factor, it's pretty neglible factor imo all in all

[Bob8]

Tell me, are Cs and Pgs normally have the same usage. Hint, maybe you should take in calculation different position those 2 play. I didn't see many Cs bringing ball over half court line, but maybe I'm wrong and Jokic is doing that too.

Jokic has far the most touches in Nba, understandable enough he's not ball handling much.

Jokic is the PG on the Nuggets, I don't know which games are u watching

Is he Denver's ball handler? In half court offense it takes a pretty big % of possession before the ball even comes to Jokic. The most touches in the league enables Jokic to do what he does.

[Bob8]

Green and Kleber are replacement level players
Lively is a rookie

by comparison:
Murray has missed 21, KCP 6, AG 7

Murray's 21 is obviously a wash with Kyrie's 22 and while Exum has missed more than KCP and AG combined - they are the two best and main defenders in the Nuggets starting five. they are each more important to the Nuggets than Exum is to the Mavs

now in the new look Mavs all of Exum, Green, Kleber etc are bench players..Nnaji missed 20+ games and he's the only big body the Nuggets have on the bench aside from the corpse of DAJ. u think such woes haven affected the Nuggets as well? watch the games Braun and Watson are stepping in to play PF haha

Mavs had more injuries and obviously more turmoil leading up to the deadline and then the trades, but it's not as dramatic or as clear cut as some Mavs posters itt are making it out to be

Those 3 replacement level players started 80+ games.

they did

and Reggie Jackson started 21 games, Justin Holiday started 9, Braun started a couple, Watson started in 4 or 5
i'd say Nuggets had about 40 starts from replacement level players. yes, 40 isn't 80 it's exactly half, but 40 games over the course of a season isn't a dramatic factor, it's pretty neglible factor imo all in all

What about Williams, DJJ, THJ? Another 100+ starts for not starters for contenders.

[Exp0sed]

Jokic is the PG on the Nuggets, I don't know which games are u watching

Is he Denver's ball handler? In half court offense it takes a pretty big % of possession before the ball even comes to Jokic. The most touches in the league enables Jokic to do what he does.

just like other ball handlers, he shares that duty but to ur question - yes, he is the primary ball handler on the Nuggets
obviously if a guy like Murray grabs a board and is open then he's gonna bring the ball up the court (unless Jokic the designated floor general dictates to him otherwise, btw) but Jokic is routinely grabbing alot of defensive boards and bringing the ball up the court, even running the break. when rebounds or steals are collected in the backourt by the low i.q bunch, say MPJ or AG they routinely hand the rock over to Jokic to bring the ball up the court

just watch some Nuggets games bro

edit: oh, and u got it all backwards
Jokic gets the most touches in the league because of his skill set. it's his talent, skill and size which "enable him to do what he does"

he gets those touches because of the player than he is, not the other way around

[Exp0sed]

Those 3 replacement level players started 80+ games.

they did

and Reggie Jackson started 21 games, Justin Holiday started 9, Braun started a couple, Watson started in 4 or 5
i'd say Nuggets had about 40 starts from replacement level players. yes, 40 isn't 80 it's exactly half, but 40 games over the course of a season isn't a dramatic factor, it's pretty neglible factor imo all in all

What about Williams, DJJ, THJ? Another 100+ starts for not starters for contenders.

what does that have to do with anything?
Nuggets have better starters than the Mavs and that was much truer before the deadline trades but is still true now

Nuggets are a better team..that has nothing to do with what we're discussing

edit: the point was when u lose a replamcent level player cuz of injuries - you don't lose much on the court, so by in large it's meaningless to list missed games by insignificant players

[MoneyTalks41890]

I think if your team plays Reggie Jackson any meaningful minutes there should be some kind of award if you’re able to overcome that and still win games.

[Bob8]

Jokic is the PG on the Nuggets, I don't know which games are u watching

Is he Denver's ball handler? In half court offense it takes a pretty big % of possession before the ball even comes to Jokic. The most touches in the league enables Jokic to do what he does.

just like other ball handlers, he shares that duty but to ur question - yes, he is the primary ball handler on the Nuggets
obviously if a guy like Murray grabs a board and is open then he's gonna bring the ball up the court (unless Jokic the floor general dictates to him otherwise, btw) but Jokic is routinely grabbing alot of defensive boards and bringing the ball up the court, even running the break. when rebounds or steals are collected in the backourt by the low i.q bunch, say MPJ or AG they routinely hand the rock over to Jokic to bring the ball up the court

just watch some Nuggets games bro

I said half court offense. I'm pretty sure that Jokic is not main player to bring the ball up the court, like Luka is. Far the most touches in the league for Jokic means that he can be involved nonstop without having big usage.