Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today

Moderators: Clav, Domejandro, ken6199, bisme37, Dirk, KingDavid, cupcakesnake, bwgood77, zimpy27, infinite11285

Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today

Poll ended at Fri Sep 27, 2024 8:16 am

Top 5
176
79%
Top 10
32
14%
Top 15
8
4%
Top 20
7
3%
 
Total votes: 223

User avatar
SelfishPlayer
General Manager
Posts: 7,548
And1: 3,368
Joined: May 23, 2014

Re: Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today 

Post#81 » by SelfishPlayer » Sat Sep 21, 2024 12:31 am

One_and_Done wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Yeh, if he's going to be an offball guard role player he'll be fine. He's not going to be an all-star guard without it though.

I'm kind of alarmed that someone thought this video was going to bolster Stockton's case. It's confirming all my concerns.


It went over your head. He plays a complete floor game down to the defense and steals.

A jack of all trades is less valuable than a specialist.


Rebounding specialists don't have a role in the NBA anymore so you clearly don't know your stuff.
SelfishPlayer wrote:The Mavs won playoff games without Luka

The Mavs missed the playoffs without Brunson.
dk1115
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,922
And1: 1,162
Joined: Feb 23, 2009
     

Re: Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today 

Post#82 » by dk1115 » Sat Sep 21, 2024 12:51 am

If you were top tier in your day, you'll find a way to be top tier today.

If I brought my 90's game to today, I'd obviously be worse. But I wouldn't be a 90's player if I grew up and trained like every other player today. I'd probably still be around the same level, relative to others, as I was before.
MavsDirk41
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,760
And1: 4,470
Joined: Dec 07, 2022
     

Re: Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today 

Post#83 » by MavsDirk41 » Sat Sep 21, 2024 12:51 am

Top point guards today in no particular order:

Luka
Brunson
Haliburton
Harden
Curry
Trae Young
Ball
Fox
Morant
Maxey
Lilliard
Jamal Murray

Stockton is easily top 10 among this list if not top 5. Only point guards i would definitely take over him are Luka and Curry.

Stockton played 19 seasons in the nba. He played 82 games 16 of those 19 seasons. He was top 10 in mvp voting 5 years. Guy was incredible.
MavsDirk41
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,760
And1: 4,470
Joined: Dec 07, 2022
     

Re: Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today 

Post#84 » by MavsDirk41 » Sat Sep 21, 2024 12:53 am

One_and_Done wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Here's a better question. What modern player plays like Stockton? Who is the archetype for his success?

Chris Paul.

C.Paul is an MVP calibre player who is better than Stockton at literally everything. Stockton couldn't sniff MVP is the weaker era he played in. It would be like me comparing Rik Smits with Wemby, or M.Harrell to Barkley, or Ingram to Durant. There are superficial similarities, but one is a completely different player to the other.



You put some hard work in your trolling on here lmao
One_and_Done
General Manager
Posts: 9,357
And1: 5,639
Joined: Jun 03, 2023

Re: Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today 

Post#85 » by One_and_Done » Sat Sep 21, 2024 1:37 am

SelfishPlayer wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:
It went over your head. He plays a complete floor game down to the defense and steals.

A jack of all trades is less valuable than a specialist.


Rebounding specialists don't have a role in the NBA anymore so you clearly don't know your stuff.

You have to specialise in the right things obviously, just like a specialist typewriter mechanic is useless, but an ICT specialist who sucks at every other skill is hyper valuable.

That's why guys like prime Harden are much more valuable than guards who are solid at every skill.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
Wingy
RealGM
Posts: 16,135
And1: 7,084
Joined: Feb 15, 2007

Re: Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today 

Post#86 » by Wingy » Sat Sep 21, 2024 1:37 am

prophet_of_rage wrote:
Wingy wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:I feel it's unfortunate when people conflate having a different opinion with trolling. The NBA is tougher these days than it was in Stockton's day. The result of that is Stockton drops down from being a borderline top 15 player to being borderline top 25-30. Since only 24 guys make an all-star team, he drops out. This shouldn't be regarded as a particularly controversial opinion.


The OP wasn’t super specific about just plopping him out of nowhere via some magical mystery Time Machine. Why do some posters frame every argument like this? (Oh, I know exactly why, it’s a rhetorical question)

Why would he not similarly benefit from modern everything?

Not an all star? Asinine.
Because then you are creating a fantasy player. With today's nutrition I can say John Stockton would have been a 6'5.shootong guard. If you don't keep.their skillset the same there is no point in even debating it because the answer can be based on any made up thing.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app


Then why even have these threads?

Plopping John Stockton into the modern age is…a fantasy, made up thing.
One_and_Done
General Manager
Posts: 9,357
And1: 5,639
Joined: Jun 03, 2023

Re: Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today 

Post#87 » by One_and_Done » Sat Sep 21, 2024 1:39 am

MavsDirk41 wrote:Top point guards today in no particular order:

Luka
Brunson
Haliburton
Harden
Curry
Trae Young
Ball
Fox
Morant
Maxey
Lilliard
Jamal Murray

Stockton is easily top 10 among this list if not top 5. Only point guards i would definitely take over him are Luka and Curry.

Stockton played 19 seasons in the nba. He played 82 games 16 of those 19 seasons. He was top 10 in mvp voting 5 years. Guy was incredible.

Leaving aside whether this list is accurate, the only one of those guys I'd definitely take Stockton over is Ball. Maybe Maxey too I guess, but I'm not sure about that.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
One_and_Done
General Manager
Posts: 9,357
And1: 5,639
Joined: Jun 03, 2023

Re: Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today 

Post#88 » by One_and_Done » Sat Sep 21, 2024 1:40 am

Wingy wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:
Wingy wrote:
The OP wasn’t super specific about just plopping him out of nowhere via some magical mystery Time Machine. Why do some posters frame every argument like this? (Oh, I know exactly why, it’s a rhetorical question)

Why would he not similarly benefit from modern everything?

Not an all star? Asinine.
Because then you are creating a fantasy player. With today's nutrition I can say John Stockton would have been a 6'5.shootong guard. If you don't keep.their skillset the same there is no point in even debating it because the answer can be based on any made up thing.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app


Then why even have these threads?

Plopping John Stockton into the modern age is…a fantasy, made up thing.

We're popping a known thing into a different context. That's easier to do that putting an unknown into a different context. The latter is just too speculative.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
Moose
Analyst
Posts: 3,726
And1: 1,675
Joined: Feb 20, 2002

Re: Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today 

Post#89 » by Moose » Sat Sep 21, 2024 1:54 am

One_and_Done wrote:
MavsDirk41 wrote:Top point guards today in no particular order:

Luka
Brunson
Haliburton
Harden
Curry
Trae Young
Ball
Fox
Morant
Maxey
Lilliard
Jamal Murray

Stockton is easily top 10 among this list if not top 5. Only point guards i would definitely take over him are Luka and Curry.

Stockton played 19 seasons in the nba. He played 82 games 16 of those 19 seasons. He was top 10 in mvp voting 5 years. Guy was incredible.

Leaving aside whether this list is accurate, the only one of those guys I'd definitely take Stockton over is Ball. Maybe Maxey too I guess, but I'm not sure about that.


Imagine taking Trae Young or Haliburton over Stockton

And if we are talking about today, Lillard? Nah

Stockton's defense alone...
One_and_Done
General Manager
Posts: 9,357
And1: 5,639
Joined: Jun 03, 2023

Re: Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today 

Post#90 » by One_and_Done » Sat Sep 21, 2024 2:00 am

Moose wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:
MavsDirk41 wrote:Top point guards today in no particular order:

Luka
Brunson
Haliburton
Harden
Curry
Trae Young
Ball
Fox
Morant
Maxey
Lilliard
Jamal Murray

Stockton is easily top 10 among this list if not top 5. Only point guards i would definitely take over him are Luka and Curry.

Stockton played 19 seasons in the nba. He played 82 games 16 of those 19 seasons. He was top 10 in mvp voting 5 years. Guy was incredible.

Leaving aside whether this list is accurate, the only one of those guys I'd definitely take Stockton over is Ball. Maybe Maxey too I guess, but I'm not sure about that.


Imagine taking Trae Young or Haliburton over Stockton

And if we are talking about today, Lillard? Nah

Stockton's defense alone...

This is what I was trying to explain to you about roles and specialisation.

Nobody is looking to start a lead guard because they're 'good on defence', point guard is the least important defensive position in fact. You might as well just start a 3&D shooting guard if that's all you're after. Of course, Stockton can do more than just shoot and defend (though his shooting is being overrated), but to be a star guard in today's league you have to be able to be the offensive focal point. Stockton can't do that. He was an old school 'toss the ball into the post' pass first point guard. That archetype doesn't really exist in today's game, and there's a reason for that.

A guard like Fox with his offensive abilities is just more valuable than an all-rounder like Stockton.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
User avatar
JDR720
Forum Mod - Hornets
Forum Mod - Hornets
Posts: 44,197
And1: 45,783
Joined: Jul 09, 2013
     

Re: Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today 

Post#91 » by JDR720 » Sat Sep 21, 2024 2:05 am

One_and_Done wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Yeh, if he's going to be an offball guard role player he'll be fine. He's not going to be an all-star guard without it though.

I'm kind of alarmed that someone thought this video was going to bolster Stockton's case. It's confirming all my concerns.


It went over your head. He plays a complete floor game down to the defense and steals.

A jack of all trades is less valuable than a specialist.

That's just objectively not true. The best teams in the league all have versatile players who do multiple things well. Whereas some specialists, such as post-scoring centers and rebounding specialists, hardly even exist anymore.
User avatar
SelfishPlayer
General Manager
Posts: 7,548
And1: 3,368
Joined: May 23, 2014

Re: Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today 

Post#92 » by SelfishPlayer » Sat Sep 21, 2024 2:05 am

One_and_Done wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:A jack of all trades is less valuable than a specialist.


Rebounding specialists don't have a role in the NBA anymore so you clearly don't know your stuff.

You have to specialise in the right things obviously, just like a specialist typewriter mechanic is useless, but an ICT specialist who sucks at every other skill is hyper valuable.

That's why guys like prime Harden are much more valuable than guards who are solid at every skill.


Stockton is a five time all defensive second team, the all time steals leader, and the all time assist leader. So his skills in the areas of defense and passing are without question at a level far above "solid." You can have your opinion but his achievement and statistical output in those areas state that he is amongst the absolute best in the sport in those areas.
SelfishPlayer wrote:The Mavs won playoff games without Luka

The Mavs missed the playoffs without Brunson.
Moose
Analyst
Posts: 3,726
And1: 1,675
Joined: Feb 20, 2002

Re: Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today 

Post#93 » by Moose » Sat Sep 21, 2024 2:11 am

One_and_Done wrote:
Moose wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Leaving aside whether this list is accurate, the only one of those guys I'd definitely take Stockton over is Ball. Maybe Maxey too I guess, but I'm not sure about that.


Imagine taking Trae Young or Haliburton over Stockton

And if we are talking about today, Lillard? Nah

Stockton's defense alone...

This is what I was trying to explain to you about roles and specialisation.

Nobody is looking to start a lead guard because they're 'good on defence', point guard is the least important defensive position in fact. You might as well just start a 3&D shooting guard if that's all you're after. Of course, Stockton can do more than just shoot and defend (though his shooting is being overrated), but to be a star guard in today's league you have to be able to be the offensive focal point. Stockton can't do that. He was an old school 'toss the ball into the post' pass first point guard. That archetype doesn't really exist in today's game, and there's a reason for that.

A guard like Fox with his offensive abilities is just more valuable than an all-rounder like Stockton.


Did you watch Stockton play?

https://youtu.be/myMvojT6zIc?si=bGaRKZBkIoOE0r7n
User avatar
durden_tyler
RealGM
Posts: 21,494
And1: 10,738
Joined: Jun 04, 2003
Location: 537 Paper Street, Bradford
   

Re: Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today 

Post#94 » by durden_tyler » Sat Sep 21, 2024 2:14 am

One_and_Done wrote:
SlimShady83 wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Wouldn't even be an all-star given his lack of creation and pass first game, combined with a much stronger league.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Take a look at the West all-stars, and all the great players who don't make it. There's no chance Stockton is an all-star.


Stockton is at least a Top 10 point guard in the league, in this era.
If there is no basketball in heaven, i am not going.
User avatar
BarbaGrizz
Analyst
Posts: 3,610
And1: 1,753
Joined: May 25, 2007
Location: Brazil
     

Re: Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today 

Post#95 » by BarbaGrizz » Sat Sep 21, 2024 2:15 am

It´s about time for the mods to ban the troll
Celtic Koala wrote:The only player from the 90s that would have been a top 10 player in the modern league would have been MJ and if you stretch it a bit Olajuwon

bstein14 wrote:Mikan is much worse than Luka Garza, who can't even make an NBA roster today
One_and_Done
General Manager
Posts: 9,357
And1: 5,639
Joined: Jun 03, 2023

Re: Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today 

Post#96 » by One_and_Done » Sat Sep 21, 2024 2:50 am

JDR720 wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:
It went over your head. He plays a complete floor game down to the defense and steals.

A jack of all trades is less valuable than a specialist.

That's just objectively not true. The best teams in the league all have versatile players who do multiple things well. Whereas some specialists, such as post-scoring centers and rebounding specialists, hardly even exist anymore.

I think this is a misunderstanding on your part. Alot of people see someone like Draymond Green and say "here's the proof all-rounders have great value". The thing is, Green isn't just an all around good player with good skills. What makes prime Green so valuable is that he's an elite defensive player. Like, a DPOY type of defender. That is his specialist skill. He's a specialist who happens to have all around skills; which is obviously the best kind of player.

Of course you want a player to be good at everything, but a team starting 5 all-around good players will go nowhere. What makes the Celtics so good isn't just that they have 5 all around guys starting, it's that 1 is an MVP candidate based on his potent offensive abilities and the other star of the team might be even better than him in the playoffs. Even their 3rd to 5th best guys are kind of specialists. White and Jrue are elite defensive players, among the best in the league. Despite that, if you're choosing between White or Harden to build a team around you go Harden every time; and I love White. Harden sucking on D doesn't matter enough, his specialisation is still so potent you always build around him over the 'all around good' White.

The only time you consider White over prime Harden is if you're working out who fits better as your 4th best guy; and even then you'd often still take Harden. We also don't rate guys based on who'd be the best 4th man on a team.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
One_and_Done
General Manager
Posts: 9,357
And1: 5,639
Joined: Jun 03, 2023

Re: Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today 

Post#97 » by One_and_Done » Sat Sep 21, 2024 2:54 am

Moose wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:
Moose wrote:
Imagine taking Trae Young or Haliburton over Stockton

And if we are talking about today, Lillard? Nah

Stockton's defense alone...

This is what I was trying to explain to you about roles and specialisation.

Nobody is looking to start a lead guard because they're 'good on defence', point guard is the least important defensive position in fact. You might as well just start a 3&D shooting guard if that's all you're after. Of course, Stockton can do more than just shoot and defend (though his shooting is being overrated), but to be a star guard in today's league you have to be able to be the offensive focal point. Stockton can't do that. He was an old school 'toss the ball into the post' pass first point guard. That archetype doesn't really exist in today's game, and there's a reason for that.

A guard like Fox with his offensive abilities is just more valuable than an all-rounder like Stockton.


Did you watch Stockton play?

https://youtu.be/myMvojT6zIc?si=bGaRKZBkIoOE0r7n

The video of Stockton that people are posting is not helping his cause. They only affirm what I was saying; that Stockton is not an offensive focal point and could not create separation that well. That's fatal to being a star guard in this league.

I did appreciate the music from Last of the Mohicans, but it doesn't change anything. Nobody is saying Stockton would be useless on O, but he wouldn't be elite which is what you need to be as a star point guard in today's game. I could take highlights of an average point guard in the league, put the same soundtrack behind it, and it'd look just as moving. Meanwhile, I watched some of the Jazz finals games yesterday and saw exactly the same meh offensive creation I remembered.

Here's a TJ McConnell highlight reel. Cherry pick the best bits of it, put Last of the Mohicans behind it, and he looks pretty similar to Stockton.
https://youtu.be/Kj3V-V8G4zg?si=xNI8yFlK9zxulhn5
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
bkkrh
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,552
And1: 2,058
Joined: Apr 12, 2024
 

Re: Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today 

Post#98 » by bkkrh » Sat Sep 21, 2024 4:24 am

BarbaGrizz wrote:It´s about time for the mods to ban the troll


At this point it's comedy gold to me. Reading things like jack of all trades have less value than specialists, good for Lebron that he was still allowed to have a career somehow :D.

Nobody is trying to start a defensive Guard, you have to be an offensive guard to be a star, then stating basically 2 posts later that the current champion played 2 defensive specialists as their guards :D. I guess everybody would like to have a defensive specialist that had multiple seasons where he scored 19-21 points and had 7-8 assists like Holiday. Or another defensive Specialist like White, that just averaged 17 points on 40% shooting through the playoffs. But idk, maybe everybody that averages bellow 20 points is actually a defensive specialst.

In the meantime we are on page 5 and talk about the last mohicans and type writer repair specialists and theoreticall all time lists without names, when the whole initial question was "were would Stockton rank as a Point Guard", which was still not really answered :D:
One_and_Done
General Manager
Posts: 9,357
And1: 5,639
Joined: Jun 03, 2023

Re: Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today 

Post#99 » by One_and_Done » Sat Sep 21, 2024 4:48 am

I'm pretty sure Lebron was a specialist at alot of skills. He had so many specialist skills that nobody thinks of him that way.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
User avatar
JDR720
Forum Mod - Hornets
Forum Mod - Hornets
Posts: 44,197
And1: 45,783
Joined: Jul 09, 2013
     

Re: Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today 

Post#100 » by JDR720 » Sat Sep 21, 2024 4:53 am

One_and_Done wrote:
I think this is a misunderstanding on your part. Alot of people see someone like Draymond Green and say "here's the proof all-rounders have great value". The thing is, Green isn't just an all around good player with good skills. What makes prime Green so valuable is that he's an elite defensive player. Like, a DPOY type of defender. That is his specialist skill. He's a specialist who happens to have all around skills; which is obviously the best kind of player.

Of course you want a player to be good at everything, but a team starting 5 all-around good players will go nowhere. What makes the Celtics so good isn't just that they have 5 all around guys starting, it's that 1 is an MVP candidate based on his potent offensive abilities and the other star of the team might be even better than him in the playoffs. Even their 3rd to 5th best guys are kind of specialists. White and Jrue are elite defensive players, among the best in the league. Despite that, if you're choosing between White or Harden to build a team around you go Harden every time; and I love White. Harden sucking on D doesn't matter enough, his specialisation is still so potent you always build around him over the 'all around good' White.

The only time you consider White over prime Harden is if you're working out who fits better as your 4th best guy; and even then you'd often still take Harden. We also don't rate guys based on who'd be the best 4th man on a team.

That's not a specialist. A specialist is a player who is is very good at a certain thing, but lacks other skills. Think Duncan Robinson, very good at 3pt shooting, and not much else. Or Andre Drummond, very good at rebounding, and not much else. Or Al Jefferson, very good at post scoring, but not much else.

If they have multiple skills, they aren't a specialist. They're an All-Around player. Draymond Green is an All-Around player. Jrue Holiday and White are All-Around players. All very good defenders, but all of them are good on offense as well.


The definition of specialist
a person who concentrates primarily on a particular subject or activity; a person highly skilled in a specific and restricted field.


So players like the ones I mentioned above. They concentrate on a certain skill, and play roles within the team that need that certain skill.

jack of all trades
a person who can do many different types of work.


So players that are skilled at multiple different things.

James Harden is an All-around offensive player. He can shoot, pass, dribble etc. He's like (or used to be like) Steph, Jokic, Luka etc. Other All-Around offensive engines.

White and Jrue are also all-around players. They're good on defense, and on offense.

You simultaneously have too broad a definition of a specialist, to the point where basically every player in the league that is any good is a specialist. And are also capping what an all-around player can be, because if they're too good at anything they must be a specialist.

Return to The General Board