Is Jamal Murray washed?

[dhsilv2]

Plenty of all star nominated players I'd trade for Murray and Gordon, MPJ is arguable. They are all star level to the extent that I wouldn't lift an eyebrow if they were nominated. They are all expensive players and would be paid highly by other teams too. Their contracts being neutral or positive value speaks to this.

Murray has one year where it wouldn't have been shocking. MPJ has never even been remotely close. Gordon...I guess you could see him there, but he'd stand out like crazy. He's not an allstar. And then there's their bench...which is historically bad.

Really other than KG nobody has had it this bad. Hakeem had a stretch this bad. Brand never was MVP level but god he suffered. But legit top tier stars with teams worse than this over 5+ years is exceptionally rare.

Lebron in Cleveland the first time around...

This is year 10 for jokic, so even if you think that was worse with Lebron (I don't agree). Lebron only did that for 7 years.

[Ssj16]

He's not injured. He's out of shape and he doesn't seem to care very much. That plus a dose of arrogance is not a good mix.

In the past it was easier to defend him because he had a killer instinct and was a leader when it came time to buckle down. But his detractors are going to come out in droves if this trajectory continues. I hope he can turn it around because it's kind of sad to watch.

It's so depressing man. I this point I may have to retire my Jamal Murray jersey, it's to embarrassing to wear.

[dhsilv2]

Murray has one year where it wouldn't have been shocking. MPJ has never even been remotely close. Gordon...I guess you could see him there, but he'd stand out like crazy. He's not an allstar. And then there's their bench...which is historically bad.

Really other than KG nobody has had it this bad. Hakeem had a stretch this bad. Brand never was MVP level but god he suffered. But legit top tier stars with teams worse than this over 5+ years is exceptionally rare.

Lebron in Cleveland the first time around...

Mo Williams was an all star, clearly far superior to Murray and Gordon. /s


The fact that Nuggets won a championship highlights the job Denver has done. As I say, the Denver roster is worth the money spent on it outside of Jokic. The only true negative deal is the Nnaji one.

Don't be disrespecting the man Ilgauskas! And if we're discussing Gordon, then I raise you Varejão who made an all defensive team, another thing non of Jokic's teammates have done. And he certainly was worthy of it.

[hardenASG13]

Nuggets have done better than most to assemble talent.

On plenty of other organisations he never wins a ring.

I mean he is literally the only MVP to play this many seasons without even 1 allstar teammate. You might be right, but lets not down play that his support is historically bad.

Plenty of all star nominated players I'd trade for Murray and Gordon, MPJ is arguable. They are all star level to the extent that I wouldn't lift an eyebrow if they were nominated. They are all expensive players and would be paid highly by other teams too. Their contracts being neutral or positive value speaks to this.

Thank you! This board is really hung up on the no all star thing. They have 4 guys starting that can put up 20 plus on any given night. It doesn't matter if they haven't made an all star team!

[Woodsanity]

He is lazy and doesnt put in the work either its a shame. Came in the season fat and out of shape.

[dhsilv2]

I mean he is literally the only MVP to play this many seasons without even 1 allstar teammate. You might be right, but lets not down play that his support is historically bad.

Plenty of all star nominated players I'd trade for Murray and Gordon, MPJ is arguable. They are all star level to the extent that I wouldn't lift an eyebrow if they were nominated. They are all expensive players and would be paid highly by other teams too. Their contracts being neutral or positive value speaks to this.

Thank you! This board is really hung up on the no all star thing. They have 4 guys starting that can put up 20 plus on any given night. It doesn't matter if they haven't made an all star team!

And Murray and MPJ are poor defenders. Scoring 20 is vastly worse way to explain it than the reality that nobody has made an allstar or all defensive team.

[hardenASG13]

Murray has one year where it wouldn't have been shocking. MPJ has never even been remotely close. Gordon...I guess you could see him there, but he'd stand out like crazy. He's not an allstar. And then there's their bench...which is historically bad.

Really other than KG nobody has had it this bad. Hakeem had a stretch this bad. Brand never was MVP level but god he suffered. But legit top tier stars with teams worse than this over 5+ years is exceptionally rare.

Lebron in Cleveland the first time around...

This is year 10 for jokic, so even if you think that was worse with Lebron (I don't agree). Lebron only did that for 7 years.

Also Iverson in Philly, McGrady in Orlando, Giannis Milwaukee has been comparable, Webber on the Kings comparable, Dirks Mavs, Dwight on Orlando. It happens. Some of them arguably had better 2nd options, I guess, but their 3rd and 4th options weren't better than MPJ/Gordon.

[Woodsanity]

Murray has one year where it wouldn't have been shocking. MPJ has never even been remotely close. Gordon...I guess you could see him there, but he'd stand out like crazy. He's not an allstar. And then there's their bench...which is historically bad.

Really other than KG nobody has had it this bad. Hakeem had a stretch this bad. Brand never was MVP level but god he suffered. But legit top tier stars with teams worse than this over 5+ years is exceptionally rare.

Lebron in Cleveland the first time around...

Mo Williams was an all star, clearly far superior to Murray and Gordon. /s


The fact that Nuggets won a championship highlights the job Denver has done. As I say, the Denver roster is worth the money spent on it outside of Jokic. The only true negative deal is the Nnaji one.

Murray is an albatross contract. Over 50m for a player that is constantly injured, is horrible defensively and offensively inconsistent is a bad deal.

He has two very good playoff runs but then he had a huge stinker last playoffs and looked like hot garbage in the olympics. Wouldnt have given over 40m.

Mpj still isnt worth it i would say.

[dhsilv2]

Lebron in Cleveland the first time around...

This is year 10 for jokic, so even if you think that was worse with Lebron (I don't agree). Lebron only did that for 7 years.

Also Iverson in Philly, McGrady in Orlando, Giannis Milwaukee has been comparable, Webber on the Kings comparable, Dirks Mavs, Dwight on Orlando. It happens. Some of them arguably had better 2nd options, I guess, but their 3rd and 4th options weren't better than MPJ/Gordon.

LMFAO.

I started to respond but come on dude lol. At least try

[hardenASG13]

This is year 10 for jokic, so even if you think that was worse with Lebron (I don't agree). Lebron only did that for 7 years.

Also Iverson in Philly, McGrady in Orlando, Giannis Milwaukee has been comparable, Webber on the Kings comparable, Dirks Mavs, Dwight on Orlando. It happens. Some of them arguably had better 2nd options, I guess, but their 3rd and 4th options weren't better than MPJ/Gordon.

LMFAO.

I started to respond but come on dude lol. At least try

Go ahead and respond. Those teams were that much better 1-4?

[dhsilv2]

Also Iverson in Philly, McGrady in Orlando, Giannis Milwaukee has been comparable, Webber on the Kings comparable, Dirks Mavs, Dwight on Orlando. It happens. Some of them arguably had better 2nd options, I guess, but their 3rd and 4th options weren't better than MPJ/Gordon.

LMFAO.

I started to respond but come on dude lol. At least try

Go ahead and respond. Those teams were that much better 1-4?

Yes, but that wasn't the topic. The issue is Jokic has had historically bad help. I used the very easy to verify point that Jokic hasn't had an allstar or all defensive team teammate. That really wasn't the point so trying to argue on that ground misses the entire discussion. Like arguing about a woman's not hot because you don't like her elbows.

[zimpy27]

Lebron in Cleveland the first time around...

Mo Williams was an all star, clearly far superior to Murray and Gordon. /s


The fact that Nuggets won a championship highlights the job Denver has done. As I say, the Denver roster is worth the money spent on it outside of Jokic. The only true negative deal is the Nnaji one.

Murray is an albatross contract. Over 50m for a player that is constantly injured, is horrible defensively and offensively inconsistent is a bad deal.

He has two very good playoff runs but then he had a huge stinker last playoffs and looked like hot garbage in the olympics. Wouldnt have given over 40m.

Mpj still isnt worth it i would say.

Lakers would trade DLo+Rui+FRP right now for Murray.
Murray was a top 3 player for the duration of the 22-23 playoffs, you take that guy. Plenty of other teams would too.

Plenty of teams would take MPJ in too.

These guys are top 50 players and genuine 2nd and 3rd options. Even if overpaid a little they still have neutral to positive value.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I mean he is literally the only MVP to play this many seasons without even 1 allstar teammate. You might be right, but lets not down play that his support is historically bad.

Plenty of all star nominated players I'd trade for Murray and Gordon, MPJ is arguable. They are all star level to the extent that I wouldn't lift an eyebrow if they were nominated. They are all expensive players and would be paid highly by other teams too. Their contracts being neutral or positive value speaks to this.

Thank you! This board is really hung up on the no all star thing. They have 4 guys starting that can put up 20 plus on any given night. It doesn't matter if they haven't made an all star team!

it does matter because these are guys that are totally dependent to Jokic for their offence. Of course there plenty suspect all star nominations over the years, but what you would expect is someone who can keep the offence flowing and create when Nikola is out, and none of these guys can.
It might be a coaching or players issue, probably both, but the truth is that either Jokic is doing his thing or Denver is going nowhere.
People like to mention depth, but it's a false problem. Braun, Strawther, Watson, Saric, Russ, maybe even Tyson and Vlatko as 10th men, are not so terribly worse than what other top heavy teams have. Just Denver's top is not that elite, outside of Jokic

[tsherkin]

Also Iverson in Philly, McGrady in Orlando, Giannis Milwaukee has been comparable, Webber on the Kings comparable, Dirks Mavs, Dwight on Orlando. It happens. Some of them arguably had better 2nd options, I guess, but their 3rd and 4th options weren't better than MPJ/Gordon.

Haha?

Murray has one year where it wouldn't have been shocking. MPJ has never even been remotely close. Gordon...I guess you could see him there, but he'd stand out like crazy. He's not an allstar. And then there's their bench...which is historically bad.

Really other than KG nobody has had it this bad. Hakeem had a stretch this bad. Brand never was MVP level but god he suffered. But legit top tier stars with teams worse than this over 5+ years is exceptionally rare.

Lebron in Cleveland the first time around...

This is year 10 for jokic, so even if you think that was worse with Lebron (I don't agree). Lebron only did that for 7 years.

Mentioning KG and Hakeem, and Brand, but not Lebron seemed like an oversight to me. It isn't quite the same length of time, for sure, but he's still a guy who suffered for a long time with useless management and a lack of any sort of punch beside him.

[hardenASG13]

LMFAO.

I started to respond but come on dude lol. At least try

Go ahead and respond. Those teams were that much better 1-4?

Yes, but that wasn't the topic. The issue is Jokic has had historically bad help. I used the very easy to verify point that Jokic hasn't had an allstar or all defensive team teammate. That really wasn't the point so trying to argue on that ground misses the entire discussion. Like arguing about a woman's not hot because you don't like her elbows.

Yes but the point being brought up to you is that an all star doesn't matter as much as anyone teams 1-4. You don't want to acknowledge it, just saying LMAO because you know it's true. I gave you multiple guys/teams with comparable supporting casts to Murray/Gordon/MPJ.

[Alatan]

Mo Williams was an all star, clearly far superior to Murray and Gordon. /s


The fact that Nuggets won a championship highlights the job Denver has done. As I say, the Denver roster is worth the money spent on it outside of Jokic. The only true negative deal is the Nnaji one.

Murray is an albatross contract. Over 50m for a player that is constantly injured, is horrible defensively and offensively inconsistent is a bad deal.

He has two very good playoff runs but then he had a huge stinker last playoffs and looked like hot garbage in the olympics. Wouldnt have given over 40m.

Mpj still isnt worth it i would say.

Lakers would trade DLo+Rui+FRP right now for Murray.
Murray was a top 3 player for the duration of the 22-23 playoffs, you take that guy. Plenty of other teams would too.

Plenty of teams would take MPJ in too.

These guys are top 50 players and genuine 2nd and 3rd options. Even if overpaid a little they still have neutral to positive value.

You are delusional.

GBS2 for another personal attack. Disagree with the post as strongly as you'd like but don't insult the poster himself. -b

[hardenASG13]

Plenty of all star nominated players I'd trade for Murray and Gordon, MPJ is arguable. They are all star level to the extent that I wouldn't lift an eyebrow if they were nominated. They are all expensive players and would be paid highly by other teams too. Their contracts being neutral or positive value speaks to this.

Thank you! This board is really hung up on the no all star thing. They have 4 guys starting that can put up 20 plus on any given night. It doesn't matter if they haven't made an all star team!

it does matter because these are guys that are totally dependent to Jokic for their offence. Of course there plenty suspect all star nominations over the years, but what you would expect is someone who can keep the offence flowing and create when Nikola is out, and none of these guys can.
It might be a coaching or players issue, probably both, but the truth is that either Jokic is doing his thing or Denver is going nowhere.
People like to mention depth, but it's a false problem. Braun, Strawther, Watson, Saric, Russ, maybe even Tyson and Vlatko as 10th men, are not so terribly worse than what other top heavy teams have. Just Denver's top is not that elite, outside of Jokic

That was the case with all the stars/teams i listed, too.

[hardenASG13]

Also Iverson in Philly, McGrady in Orlando, Giannis Milwaukee has been comparable, Webber on the Kings comparable, Dirks Mavs, Dwight on Orlando. It happens. Some of them arguably had better 2nd options, I guess, but their 3rd and 4th options weren't better than MPJ/Gordon.

Haha?

Lebron in Cleveland the first time around...

This is year 10 for jokic, so even if you think that was worse with Lebron (I don't agree). Lebron only did that for 7 years.

Mentioning KG and Hakeem, and Brand, but not Lebron seemed like an oversight to me. It isn't quite the same length of time, for sure, but he's still a guy who suffered for a long time with useless management and a lack of any sort of punch beside him.

Am I missing something about the mentioned teams?

[tsherkin]

Also Iverson in Philly, McGrady in Orlando, Giannis Milwaukee has been comparable, Webber on the Kings comparable, Dirks Mavs, Dwight on Orlando. It happens. Some of them arguably had better 2nd options, I guess, but their 3rd and 4th options weren't better than MPJ/Gordon.

Haha?

This is year 10 for jokic, so even if you think that was worse with Lebron (I don't agree). Lebron only did that for 7 years.

Mentioning KG and Hakeem, and Brand, but not Lebron seemed like an oversight to me. It isn't quite the same length of time, for sure, but he's still a guy who suffered for a long time with useless management and a lack of any sort of punch beside him.

Am I missing something about the mentioned teams?

Yeah. AI had a stacked defensive roster. Struggled with offensive help, but that team's strength was its D, and it ultimately included a DPOY and rebounding champion, as well as the 6MOY. Ratliff was an AS that year, as was Mutombo, who was also All-NBA 2nd Team.

McGrady in Orlando, sure. Didn't have the tenure to line up, but certainly a dearth of talent. Giannis has had plenty of talent in Milwaukee. Middleton was an All-Star in 2022, Holiday in 23, Brook Lopez was second in the DPOY vote in 23, Lillard was an AS last year. He's definitely not played without an All-Star teammate.

And I'm not sure why you'd even mention those last three teams, all of which were very talented.

[dhsilv2]

Also Iverson in Philly, McGrady in Orlando, Giannis Milwaukee has been comparable, Webber on the Kings comparable, Dirks Mavs, Dwight on Orlando. It happens. Some of them arguably had better 2nd options, I guess, but their 3rd and 4th options weren't better than MPJ/Gordon.

Haha?

Lebron in Cleveland the first time around...

This is year 10 for jokic, so even if you think that was worse with Lebron (I don't agree). Lebron only did that for 7 years.

Mentioning KG and Hakeem, and Brand, but not Lebron seemed like an oversight to me. It isn't quite the same length of time, for sure, but he's still a guy who suffered for a long time with useless management and a lack of any sort of punch beside him.

I don't think Lebron's teams were nearly as bad. I think they were defensive skewed teams with reasonable benches.

Early on he had guys like Zydrunas who might be a weak allstar but was still a really solid player. Snow was older and past his prime but still an all around top tier defender. Gooden and Marshall or Larry Hughes with guys like Varejao off the bench early (and then starting later).

Take say the 2000 Wolves, KG's first all nba first team selection. Solid if not near allstar help from Brandon. And depending on where you are with Peeler and Sealy...an ok starting line up (I stand by Peeler was a defensive mess). But the bench was much like Jokic's dealing with now...just god awful. Joe Smith, Nesterovic and Sam Mitchell were the first 3 off the bench and in that season they were complete liabilities. Now Bobby Jackson was solid but he was the 9th man. And that really was one of the more solid rosters. Since the wolves were in constant change.