SGA has more Win Shares than Luka

[Andri]

Well it all depends on the team layout. A dominant team or dynasty team is top on defense and offense. I don't think Luka could ever be on a dominant team because of his lack of defense but he could be on a championship team.

I think the one negative of Luka is that his style hid the potential of Brunson. I think that's the only negative I could pull.

I think Luka's playoff performances is what makes him great so far. He seems to improve in that arena.

I am not sold on Luka's platoff performance peridgree at all really

He was effectively shut out/frozen in last year's finals v the Celtics, and before that, I don't think he had many memorable playoffs runs for the Mavs

I am of the the opinion actually that Luka is a fantastic regular season before but bit of a fizzer/dud when it comes to post season action

If that's your believe, little could be discussed based on stats, games and runs

[MoneyTalks41890]

Well SGA outplayed Luka by a lot in last years’ playoff matchup. The young Thunder didn’t have a second option that played well, so this discussion is better revisted after this years playoffs.

But this year SGA is quite a bit better on both ends.

Offensive estimated and actual EPM this year, Jokic is ahead of everyone by a lot, but in second SGA is ahead of everyone other than Jokic by a lot as well.

[Mavrelous]

SGA didn't outplay Luka, Luka's P&R was defended 3 on 2, he gave up the ball to get the better shot for his team, and he did get them better shots, SGA got his, but Mavs were comfortable with shutting everyone else and getting they were comfortable with.
It is the fact SGA isn't able to get enough defensive attention for his supporting cast to score is why Luka is just a different level offensive player than him, these are things you see watching the games and not with WS and PER.
Taking away game 1 of the series which was a blow out, OKC never won in SGA minutes, except his amazing performance in game 4 which gave them a mere +1, Mavs never lost in Luka minutes, despite him choking away game 4.
After game 4 choke job, which Luka himself was primary reason of the choking, momentum shifted, and game 5 was shaping up to be a statement win for the Thunder, Luka went into OKC and dog walked them in their own arena, anyone who watched the series and that game in particular, should have little doubt of who was the best player in that series.
Speaking of great series by losing players, if anyone wants to see what a carry job of subpar roster is, go to Luka's series against the Clippers in 21, in the close 7 game series that Mavs lost, Luka had 33 pts on/off, that was a sereis where a player should have won had anyone of his supporting cast been able to do anything useful.

[runtmc]

SGA didn't outplay Luka, Luka's P&R was defended 3 on 2, he gave up the ball to get the better shot for his team, and he did get them better shots, SGA got his, but Mavs were comfortable with shutting everyone else and getting they were comfortable with.
It is the fact SGA isn't able to get enough defensive attention for his supporting cast to score is why Luka is just a different level offensive player than him, these are things you see watching the games and not with WS and PER.
Taking away game 1 of the series which was a blow out, OKC never won in SGA minutes, except his amazing performance in game 4 which gave them a mere +1, Mavs never lost in Luka minutes, despite him choking away game 4.
After game 4 choke job, which Luka himself was primary reason of the choking, momentum shifted, and game 5 was shaping up to be a statement win for the Thunder, Luka went into OKC and dog walked them in their own arena, anyone who watched the series and that game in particular, should have little doubt of who was the best player in that series.
Speaking of great series by losing players, if anyone wants to see what a carry job of subpar roster is, go to Luka's series against the Clippers in 21, in the close 7 game series that Mavs lost, Luka had 33 pts on/off, that was a sereis where a player should have won had anyone of his supporting cast been able to do anything useful.

Last year is last year. The fact remains SGA has taken a major leap this season while Luka has regressed slightly. He's *crushing* Luka across the board this season, and its not close.

[Archx]

Last year is last year. The fact remains SGA has taken a major leap this season while Luka has regressed slightly. He's *crushing* Luka across the board this season, and its not close.

Weirdly enough Luka didn't have this much rest since Mavs missed the playoffs due to that Kyrie trade. He's been constantly injured since playoffs and didn't have time to regenerate due to other basketball related obligations. I would say the real season starts now for him. It is true that it will take him some time to get back to playing shape but i think playoffs will be the real deal. So all this "regressed" talk is nonsense at this point.

[runtmc]

Last year is last year. The fact remains SGA has taken a major leap this season while Luka has regressed slightly. He's *crushing* Luka across the board this season, and its not close.

Weirdly enough Luka didn't have this much rest since Mavs missed the playoffs due to that Kyrie trade. He's been constantly injured since playoffs and didn't have time to regenerate due to other basketball related obligations. I would say the real season starts now for him. It is true that it will take him some time to get back to playing shape but i think playoffs will be the real deal. So all this "regressed" talk is nonsense at this point.

Luka had his career best year last year -- and to be fair to him, it was a phenomenal, MVP caliber season. But even if you compare SGA this season to Luka last season, SGA is still crushing him across the board, its just closer than it is this year.

SGA is having one of the greatest individual seasons in nba history this season, its really that simple.

[MightyMouse10]

I always believed that had Luka stayed in Dallas he would have had an Iverson/Harden/TMac type of career. No rings all accolades, great career. HoF no doubt. The reality is you need to play both ends of the floor to be the main star of the team or at least be covered by those deficiencies with the team built around you. AD makes the mavs better today as the replacement in Doncic touches are going to another elite ball handler in Kyrie and the MAVS defence improves immensely with AD. Lakers likely build a contender around Luka because they're the Lakers. Will be hard with both Lebron and Luka to win. Not because they can't co-exist offensively but because at this stage in Lebron's career he is a defensive liability and you can't have two on the floor. They will be better suited to trade or let Lebron walk and replace with a player who can better complement Luka at Lebron's salary.

[Bob8]

I always believed that had Luka stayed in Dallas he would have had an Iverson/Harden/TMac type of career. No rings all accolades, great career. HoF no doubt. The reality is you need to play both ends of the floor to be the main star of the team or at least be covered by those deficiencies with the team built around you. AD makes the mavs better today as the replacement in Doncic touches are going to another elite ball handler in Kyrie and the MAVS defence improves immensely with AD. Lakers likely build a contender around Luka because they're the Lakers. Will be hard with both Lebron and Luka to win. Not because they can't co-exist offensively but because at this stage in Lebron's career he is a defensive liability and you can't have two on the floor. They will be better suited to trade or let Lebron walk and replace with a player who can better complement Luka salary wise.

There's only one problem, Kyrie is not a Pg, he's hardly creating for others. Saying he's another elite ball handler is right, but he's using his elite ball handling mostly for his Iso ofense, he's doing only half of things Luka was doing. But there will be a problem in playoffs too, opponents won't be putting the best defenders on Luka anymore, Luka won't be double teamed and traped anymore. Leaving Kyrie to operate 1 on 1. Attention will be now on Kyrie.

About Luka and LeBron playing together. Luka and Kyrie D was enough for Finals and they have lost Finals in offensive side not D. You're saying that Luka and LeBron can't defend 3rd and 4th option of opponents? LeBron in contrast of Kyrie can defend bigger players too.

Mavs have indeed better team than Lakers, if Luka was there instead of Kyrie. Now playmaking duties will be in hands of Dinwiddie and Exum, those 2 instantly become crucial players for Mavs. Good luck with that.

AD playing as 4 with Gafford/Lively might look good on paper. In reality spacing will suffer a lot. If you play AD on 5, you have 1 C too many.

Supposed starting 5, Kyrie/Klay/PJ/AD/Lively or Gafford has no one able to create anything for others and except Kyrie they are not exactly great in creating for themselves.

[bledredwine]

Dallas was just in the NBA finals last year. They beat OKC to get there. Luka was clearly their best player.

This.

Regular season these days does not matter when it comes to comparing great players.

[Sofia]

Trade SGA to Lakers

Pelinka sitting my the phone waiting for it to ring so he can claim another trade win

[MightyMouse10]

I always believed that had Luka stayed in Dallas he would have had an Iverson/Harden/TMac type of career. No rings all accolades, great career. HoF no doubt. The reality is you need to play both ends of the floor to be the main star of the team or at least be covered by those deficiencies with the team built around you. AD makes the mavs better today as the replacement in Doncic touches are going to another elite ball handler in Kyrie and the MAVS defence improves immensely with AD. Lakers likely build a contender around Luka because they're the Lakers. Will be hard with both Lebron and Luka to win. Not because they can't co-exist offensively but because at this stage in Lebron's career he is a defensive liability and you can't have two on the floor. They will be better suited to trade or let Lebron walk and replace with a player who can better complement Luka salary wise.

There's only one problem, Kyrie is not a Pg, he's hardly creating for others. Saying he's another elite ball handler is right, but he's using his elite ball handling mostly for his Iso ofense, he's doing only half of things Luka was doing. But there will be a problem in playoffs too, opponents won't be putting the best defenders on Luka anymore, Luka won't be double teamed and traped anymore. Leaving Kyrie to operate 1 on 1. Attention will be now on Kyrie.


About Luka and LeBron playing together. Luka and Kyrie D was enough for Finals and they have lost Finals in offensive side not D. You're saying that Luka and LeBron can't defend 3rd and 4th option of opponents? LeBron in contrast of Kyrie can defend bigger players too.

Mavs have indeed better team than Lakers, if Luka was there instead of Kyrie. Now playmaking duties will be in hands of Dinwiddie and Exum, those 2 instantly become crucial players for Mavs. Good luck with that.

AD playing as 4 with Gafford/Lively might look good on paper. In reality spacing will suffer a lot. If you play AD on 5, you have 1 C too many.

Supposed starting 5, Kyrie/Klay/PJ/AD/Lively or Gafford has no one able to create anything for others and except Kyrie they are not exactly great in creating for themselves.

P 1: Luka is as much as a pg as Kyrie is. I also wouldn't discount AD/Kyrie offensively. Sure, they're not as elite as Luka but I would say they can both easily beat an opponent 1 on 1. It is still a pick your poison scenario. In this situation they complement each other versus having a primary ball handler become redundant.

P 2: Whatever happened last year, happened. As the West is currently constructed, I don't see Lebron or Luka being a positive defensive matchup in any of the top western conference teams that they would need to get through to make the finals. I could be wrong but in the playoffs teams will target Lebron/Reaves/Luka constantly.

p3 I would argue Kyrie and Ad out of need elevate into greater playmakers to pick up the slack. Obviously not as well as Luka but the drop off won't be as significant. My point is not that Luka is bad but mores the opportunity cost of having one of kyrie/Luka doing nothing on offence together, when neither are great defensively is worse than the current alternative. Both are capable of being focal points of an offence, as is AD.

P 4: Agree, I always thought AD is better served as a 5

p 5: As mentioned above I believe Kyrie and AD are capable, while not at the same level as Luka


Im not totally against what you're saying just looking from the perspective that a lot of things have to go right for Luka/Kyrie to win a championship. The current structure is better. Ideally you trade kyrie for AD. Ppl are underrating AD as a player. He may be older than Luka but his value to a team, while different in structure, is close to the same level.

A 40 year old lebron and Luka will struggle to win any championships. The skillsets offensively do not compliment each other. Both need the ball to be effective. If I have luka on my team I'd rather he control the game than Lebron as at this point in his career he is not as effective. Even if the split is 70/30 what is Bron doing on offence for the 70% he doesnt have the ball. I you make it 50/50 you take away from Luka's effectiveness.

Comparing Luka to Iverson, Harden, TMac is not a knock to Luka. Those are real legends of the NBA. That skillset is not exactly conducive to winning the way the NBA is currently structured. It hasn't happened yet. The closest thing we've seen is Curry win with the GSW but he had Klay, Draymond, Iguodala, KD, Bogut who were defensive positives versus Liabilities. You put Luka in Curry's place you have the same outcome maybe better. The issue is that GSW team needed a lot of luck to construct those teams.

[Bob8]

I always believed that had Luka stayed in Dallas he would have had an Iverson/Harden/TMac type of career. No rings all accolades, great career. HoF no doubt. The reality is you need to play both ends of the floor to be the main star of the team or at least be covered by those deficiencies with the team built around you. AD makes the mavs better today as the replacement in Doncic touches are going to another elite ball handler in Kyrie and the MAVS defence improves immensely with AD. Lakers likely build a contender around Luka because they're the Lakers. Will be hard with both Lebron and Luka to win. Not because they can't co-exist offensively but because at this stage in Lebron's career he is a defensive liability and you can't have two on the floor. They will be better suited to trade or let Lebron walk and replace with a player who can better complement Luka salary wise.

There's only one problem, Kyrie is not a Pg, he's hardly creating for others. Saying he's another elite ball handler is right, but he's using his elite ball handling mostly for his Iso ofense, he's doing only half of things Luka was doing. But there will be a problem in playoffs too, opponents won't be putting the best defenders on Luka anymore, Luka won't be double teamed and traped anymore. Leaving Kyrie to operate 1 on 1. Attention will be now on Kyrie.


About Luka and LeBron playing together. Luka and Kyrie D was enough for Finals and they have lost Finals in offensive side not D. You're saying that Luka and LeBron can't defend 3rd and 4th option of opponents? LeBron in contrast of Kyrie can defend bigger players too.

Mavs have indeed better team than Lakers, if Luka was there instead of Kyrie. Now playmaking duties will be in hands of Dinwiddie and Exum, those 2 instantly become crucial players for Mavs. Good luck with that.

AD playing as 4 with Gafford/Lively might look good on paper. In reality spacing will suffer a lot. If you play AD on 5, you have 1 C too many.

Supposed starting 5, Kyrie/Klay/PJ/AD/Lively or Gafford has no one able to create anything for others and except Kyrie they are not exactly great in creating for themselves.

P 1: Luka is as much as a pg as Kyrie is. I also wouldn't discount AD/Kyrie offensively. Sure, they're not as elite as Luka but I would say they can both easily beat an opponent 1 on 1. It is still a pick your poison scenario. In this situation they complement each other versus having a primary ball handler become redundant.

P 2: Whatever happened last year, happened. As the West is currently constructed, I don't see Lebron or Luka being a positive defensive matchup in any of the top western conference teams that they would need to get through to make the finals. I could be wrong but in the playoffs teams will target Lebron/Reaves/Luka constantly.

p3 I would argue Kyrie and Ad out of need elevate into greater playmakers to pick up the slack. Obviously not as well as Luka but the drop off won't be as significant. My point is not that Luka is bad but mores the opportunity cost of having one of kyrie/Luka doing nothing on offence together, when neither are great defensively is worse than the current alternative. Both are capable of being focal points of an offence, as is AD.

P 4: Agree, I always thought AD is better served as a 5

p 5: As mentioned above I believe Kyrie and AD are capable, while not at the same level as Luka


Im not totally against what you're saying just looking from the perspective that a lot of things have to go right for Luka/Kyrie to win a championship. The current structure is better. Ideally you trade kyrie for AD. Ppl are underrating AD as a player. He may be older than Luka but his value to a team, while different in structure, is close to the same level.

A 40 year old lebron and Luka will struggle to win any championships. The skillsets offensively do not compliment each other. Both need the ball to be effective. If I have luka on my team I'd rather he control the game than Lebron as at this point in his career he is not as effective. Even if the split is 70/30 what is Bron doing on offence for the 70% he doesnt have the ball. I you make it 50/50 you take away from Luka's effectiveness.

Comparing Luka to Iverson, Harden, TMac is not a knock to Luka. Those are real legends of the NBA. That skillset is not exactly conducive to winning the way the NBA is currently structured. It hasn't happened yet. The closest thing we've seen is Curry win with the GSW but he had Klay, Draymond, Iguodala, KD, Bogut who were defensive positives versus Liabilities. You put Luka in Curry's place you have the same outcome maybe better. The issue is that GSW team needed a lot of luck to construct those teams.

I stop reading with P1, you obviously don't watch Mavs. Kyrie is averaging less than 5 assists after Luka went down. His assists went down not up. He assisted Klay just 2x in January. There you have your Pg.

Yes Luka and LeBron will struggle to win the ring. But Kyrie and AD will struggle even more. Vegas have Lakers +1.2000 and Mavs +3.200. Before the trade, Lakers were +4.400 and Mavs +2.000.

[UglyBugBall]

SGA didn't outplay Luka, Luka's P&R was defended 3 on 2, he gave up the ball to get the better shot for his team, and he did get them better shots, SGA got his, but Mavs were comfortable with shutting everyone else and getting they were comfortable with.
It is the fact SGA isn't able to get enough defensive attention for his supporting cast to score is why Luka is just a different level offensive player than him, these are things you see watching the games and not with WS and PER.
Taking away game 1 of the series which was a blow out, OKC never won in SGA minutes, except his amazing performance in game 4 which gave them a mere +1, Mavs never lost in Luka minutes, despite him choking away game 4.
After game 4 choke job, which Luka himself was primary reason of the choking, momentum shifted, and game 5 was shaping up to be a statement win for the Thunder, Luka went into OKC and dog walked them in their own arena, anyone who watched the series and that game in particular, should have little doubt of who was the best player in that series.
Speaking of great series by losing players, if anyone wants to see what a carry job of subpar roster is, go to Luka's series against the Clippers in 21, in the close 7 game series that Mavs lost, Luka had 33 pts on/off, that was a sereis where a player should have won had anyone of his supporting cast been able to do anything useful.

Last year is last year. The fact remains SGA has taken a major leap this season while Luka has regressed slightly. He's *crushing* Luka across the board this season, and its not close.

Luka is way past the point of caring about the regular season. SGA still has a lot to prove. In the playoffs it's Luka and its not close.

[Stan]

If you'd rather have Tatum as your franchise player over Luka you're clueless about basketball. Dude didn't even play that well in the Finals and his team still easily won in 5.

[Yoshun]

Luka has played 22 games this season.

[bisme37]

This is a bit of a tangent but I've almost made a thread about this a few times...

Everyone knows defense is fully 50% of the game, but then when we start ranking players and assigning value it somehow only counts for like 5% of the discussion? Why?

If Player A is a marginally better offensive player, and Player B is a substantially better defensive player, doesn't that make Player B the marginally better overall player? The math makes sense to me but the discussion never follows that logic.

[Bob8]

This is a bit of a tangent but I've almost made a thread about this a few times...

Everyone knows defense is fully 50% of the game, but then when we start ranking players and assigning value it somehow only counts for like 5% of the discussion? Why?

If Player A is a marginally better offensive player, and Player B is a substantially better defensive player, doesn't that make Player B the marginally better overall player? The math makes sense to me but the discussion never follows that logic.

D is a bit more problematic to quantify. Is defensive rebounds D? Luka is far the best rebounder among guards. Last year we have heard how important are steals and how dominant is SGA. Who do you think are in second place together in steals in Nba?

Mavs are 3.3 points worse in D with Luka off court. Kinda shocking number. For example they're 5.1 points better with Kyrie off court. And OKC is only 1.4 worse with Shai off court. Okc has far better D, but it looks Luka is more important for Mavs D than Shai for OKC. Luka is statistically second best Mavs defender, behind only Lively among players, who're playing normal minutes. Mavs D has fallen off the cliff after Luka's injury. I'm sure that data won't change perception, how fat Luka is among worse defenders in the league.

[zero rings]

If you'd rather have Tatum as your franchise player over Luka you're clueless about basketball. Dude didn't even play that well in the Finals and his team still easily won in 5.

Tatum is still a 6’9 defensive wing even when his shot isn’t falling.

When Luka’s shot isn’t falling, he’s a defensive sieve who spends more time arguing with the refs than getting back on D. He’s also extremely ball dominant, so his off nights are far more damaging than Tatum’s.

The Mavs internal assessment of Luka is correct. The problem is they didn’t get the maximun return for him, and they weren’t able to sell the trade to their fans.

[Bob8]

If you'd rather have Tatum as your franchise player over Luka you're clueless about basketball. Dude didn't even play that well in the Finals and his team still easily won in 5.

Tatum is still a 6’9 defensive wing even when his shot isn’t falling.

When Luka’s shot isn’t falling, he’s a defensive sieve who spends more time arguing with the refs than getting back on D. He’s also extremely ball dominant, so his off nights are far more damaging than Tatum’s.

The Mavs internal assessment of Luka is correct. The problem is they didn’t get the maximun return for him, and they weren’t able to sell the trade to their fans.

The only problem is that Tatum's shot aren't falling every second game. You should check Luka's defensive numbers this year, you might be shocked.

Since Luka's injury on Christmas Day, Mavs have won 8 games and lost 16 games. So their assessment was, we can't win without Luka, we have to trade him for 6 years older injury prone player. Not exactly easy to sell that premise to anyone, except few Luka's haters here. Fans, who're watching games are not that stupid.

[THE J0KER]

OK, if they think SGA or Tatum are more valuable players than Doncic, why do they not trade Luka for SGA or Tatum instead of for 31y old veteran?