[Hoopshype] The 78 greatest defensive players in NBA history

[cpower]

This should be a list of 70 big men + 8 guard/wing (near the bottom)

smaller players just do not provide enough defense and that is the baseline. This list is beyond terrible.

But multiple posters have said it's embarrassing that Jordan is below Draymond and that he isn't ranked higher.

Could you guys name 70 bigmen better on D than Jordan? Yeah, GREAT defensive bigmen have more impact than GREAT defensive guards, but you can name 70 of those? Guards do impact defense.

yes three on my team alone: Anderson, Looney and Green. I am sure there are another 100 big men who is more important on D

[UcanUwill]

But multiple posters have said it's embarrassing that Jordan is below Draymond and that he isn't ranked higher.

Could you guys name 70 bigmen better on D than Jordan? Yeah, GREAT defensive bigmen have more impact than GREAT defensive guards, but you can name 70 of those? Guards do impact defense.

yes three on my team alone: Anderson, Looney and Green. I am sure there are another 100 big men who is more important on D

I saw your comment saying Kyle Anderson more impactfull on D than Jordan, and I dont really know what I can say beside that you seem to greatly underrate guard's defense. If you really believe what you said, you seem far off for me to even try to convince you orherwise.

[bkkrh]

How tf is Green a head Allen and Jordan

Some of the positions are weird. Ewing was a monster on defense for his first 8-9 seasons. Mookie Blaylock at 72 and behind Pat Bev is a joke, I´d also put Nate McMillan over him. Bobby Jones feels a bit too low. Marcus Camby a bit too high (and he is one of my all time favorites). Shaq is definitely too high. Tyson Chandler should also be lower if we consider his full career. I think Bird is a bit underrated as defender, but he is not a a top 75 All Time Defender in league history.

Bird had 3 all-defensive nods and 1 of the best defensive plays of all time. That's pretty much all because of how good he was at jumping passing lanes. But while he was an all-time great at that aspect of defense, otherwise defensively he was ... competent.

Yeah, that pretty much goes according to what I wrote. Like overall I see him being a good defender, but I don't think he places 74th out of at this point close to 5000 players that played in the NBA on defense.

[PistolPeteJR]

List stinks.

Also, LOL at Green and Gobert right next to each other with Green ahead

[cgf]

I grew up admiring Gary Payton, but wasn't Kidd in their time, and Jrue in this one, every bit as impactful and versatile as defenders? In any case, I feel like they are too low relative to Glove.

Kidd should be the highest ranked guard on this list IMO.

I repeat myself about how under-rated Clyde's defense has become. I want to say he should be the highest knick on this list...but that might be taking things too far in the other direction.

[Wingy]

How tf is Green a head Allen and Jordan

Agree, he should be way more ahead of them

Jordan is wildly overated her

Idc about Jordan cause that only sparks moronic goat debates, but Allen?

Let’s be honest. There’s hardly anyone on this board that has watched enough to rank all these players in this way.

But when Kobe, and KD say a guy was their toughest defender and Steph puts him in his top 3, I’m not sure you can put anyone “way ahead” of them.

[Ruma85]

How tf is Green a head Allen and Jordan

Agree, he should be way more ahead of them

Jordan is wildly overated her

Idc about Jordan cause that only sparks moronic goat debates, but Allen?

Let’s be honest. There’s hardly anyone on this board that has watched enough to rank all these players in this way.

But when Kobe, and KD say a guy was their toughest defender and Steph puts him in his top 3, I’m not sure you can put anyone “way ahead” of them.

I was just about to come and comment about Mr. Tony Allen. got here before me.

[ScrantonBulls]

How tf is Green a head Allen and Jordan

Agree, he should be way more ahead of them

Jordan is wildly overated her

Idc about Jordan cause that only sparks moronic goat debates, but Allen?

Let’s be honest. There’s hardly anyone on this board that has watched enough to rank all these players in this way.

But when Kobe, and KD say a guy was their toughest defender and Steph puts him in his top 3, I’m not sure you can put anyone “way ahead” of them.

He's right. Green's defensive impact far exceeds the defensive impact of guards during their respective eras. And Tony Allen averaged 22 MPG during his career... He didn't play all that much which hurts his value. We can have an honest discussion without getting into GOAT tribalism. We're talking strictly about defense here.

[Profound23]

Jordan and Giannis are too low.

[ScrantonBulls]

Jordan and Giannis are too low.

Interesting take Profound23

[Fencer reregistered]

Shane Battier is oddly high, right below Kevin McHale and just a few spots below Sidney Moncrief.

Indeed, why is he on the list at all?

[Mirotic12]

Hakeem should be #1, and Havlicek is way too low.

[Fencer reregistered]

Wes Unseld over Elvin Hayes?

[Profound23]

Hakeem should be #1, and Havlicek is way too low.

Yeah I would probably go Hakeem, Giannis, MJ 1-2-3

[Diop]

Duncan over KG is crazy. Duncan was obviously the better go to offensive player but KG could legitimately (and did at times) D up Kobe on one possession and then Shaq on the next. He'd get bullied by Shaq but everyone got bullied by Shaq. Dude was a defense unto himself. Duncan wasn't. Though obviously TD was a very, very good post defender.

Nuances like these make it difficult to just make a list like this, it clearly ignores versatility with some. Garnett was one of the most versatile defenders ever but Duncan was probably better in the post only.

Would be similar with arguing the best offensive player between Shaq and Jokic. Shaq was a high fg% dominant monster, while Jokic does everything.

You can argue this **** for years

[Diop]

Only 1 player has had back to back 10 block games in a season, he also has the highest career block % but he will never make a list like this because it’s easier to just stick to the he’s a skinny white joke tripe

[Sane]

As a Rockets fan I will accept it because at the end of the day, what has happened has already happened.

However, I know full well that if Olajuwon started for Russell's Celtics and didn't have to score a god damn point to win, he would have turned Russell into a distant 2nd. Hakeem is everything Russell can do plus top 10 in steals plus not a liability on the perimeter.

This is ROOKIE Hakeem (aka Akeem), which C have you ever seen jump like that other than DH12, Wilt and Hakeem?

https://youtu.be/OSHwPJTgpPw?si=EOKnkZraVfZPW_cn&t=41

Your mention of Wilt here implies you think Wilt was a better jumper than Russell, but the opposite is true.

Russell had a bigger leap than Wilt
Russell has a quicker leap than Wilt.
Russell had longer arms than Wilt.
Russell was smarter than Wilt.

Same is probably true with respect to Howard.

This then to say that if you’re not thinking of Russell as someone with similar quickness to Hakeem with great reach, you’re underestimating to Russell.

That’s before you get into Russell’s defensive intelligence which was completely off the charts.

I’d expect Hakeem to be the more effective overall player today because of his scoring game to be clear, and I’m not saying Hakeem’s defense is overrated, but if you don’t think of Russell as an utterly extreme outlier even by todays standards, I think you should look harder at him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're just describing that Wilt may be less athletic than I thought.

There is an exactly 0% chance Russell is more athletic than Howard. It's not even comparable. Could be stronger but not quicker or more athletic.

Russell is not jumping over a car to dunk like Akeem and Howard. Doesn't have any lateral speed either. No sudden stop (deceleration). Personally I don't think he matches up with Wilt either - if you take Wilt's apex dunks/blocks, I've never seen Russell get as high up.

Maybe you're comparing rumored verticals? Are you using some numbers that are mentioned in the past?

[Sane]

Also, people have gone way too far again playing devil's advocate.

Now people are talking about C's as though Lebron James can be guarded by Kyle Korver if Bill Russell is his C.


No, Looney is not more important than a historically elite wing defender. You can just put him in an action and your whole big man theory is down the toilet when the switch is forced.


If you're talking about bigs who can respectably guard the perimeter too you can make a case almost no wings are that good. That works across eras.

But if you're talking about some C who can't live without drop coverage, no that guy got figured out in the 2000's and you can't undo it. He still can't guard a SG or really anyone who can shoot with a quick release.

The pendulum swings too wildly here.

[bkkrh]

Duncan over KG is crazy. Duncan was obviously the better go to offensive player but KG could legitimately (and did at times) D up Kobe on one possession and then Shaq on the next. He'd get bullied by Shaq but everyone got bullied by Shaq. Dude was a defense unto himself. Duncan wasn't. Though obviously TD was a very, very good post defender.

Nuances like these make it difficult to just make a list like this, it clearly ignores versatility with some. Garnett was one of the most versatile defenders ever but Duncan was probably better in the post only.

Would be similar with arguing the best offensive player between Shaq and Jokic. Shaq was a high fg% dominant monster, while Jokic does everything.

You can argue this **** for years

As many posters pointed out, if we would go with who had the most impact on defense, the list would probably be 75 Centers and Power Forwards that were the defensive anchors on their team, which has of course more impact than a great perimeter defender that most of the time "only" directly impacted one opposing player.

It probably would make more sense to have 2 separate list, one for 1 on 1 defender and one for defensive anchor or whatever you want to call it. So you could add a guy like Garnett on both lists, while the classic perimeter defending guard is just on the 1 on 1 list.

KInda similar to what you wrote with offense. It's kinda hard for example to evaluate who was a better offensive player between Tracy McGrady and Steve Nash, but if I split it into best scorers and best playmakers it's super easy. Kinda like I if I make a "best cars" list. What are we even evaluating, looks, speed, functionality? How do I compare a Maybach to a Ferrari to a Hummer?

[Doctor MJ]

As a Rockets fan I will accept it because at the end of the day, what has happened has already happened.

However, I know full well that if Olajuwon started for Russell's Celtics and didn't have to score a god damn point to win, he would have turned Russell into a distant 2nd. Hakeem is everything Russell can do plus top 10 in steals plus not a liability on the perimeter.

This is ROOKIE Hakeem (aka Akeem), which C have you ever seen jump like that other than DH12, Wilt and Hakeem?

https://youtu.be/OSHwPJTgpPw?si=EOKnkZraVfZPW_cn&t=41

Your mention of Wilt here implies you think Wilt was a better jumper than Russell, but the opposite is true.

Russell had a bigger leap than Wilt
Russell has a quicker leap than Wilt.
Russell had longer arms than Wilt.
Russell was smarter than Wilt.

Same is probably true with respect to Howard.

This then to say that if you’re not thinking of Russell as someone with similar quickness to Hakeem with great reach, you’re underestimating to Russell.

That’s before you get into Russell’s defensive intelligence which was completely off the charts.

I’d expect Hakeem to be the more effective overall player today because of his scoring game to be clear, and I’m not saying Hakeem’s defense is overrated, but if you don’t think of Russell as an utterly extreme outlier even by todays standards, I think you should look harder at him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're just describing that Wilt may be less athletic than I thought.

There is an exactly 0% chance Russell is more athletic than Howard. It's not even comparable. Could be stronger but not quicker or more athletic.

Russell is not jumping over a car to dunk like Akeem and Howard. Doesn't have any lateral speed either. No sudden stop (deceleration). Personally I don't think he matches up with Wilt either - if you take Wilt's apex dunks/blocks, I've never seen Russell get as high up.

Maybe you're comparing rumored verticals? Are you using some numbers that are mentioned in the past?

Bill Russell was an Olympic level high jumper dude. Literally of any of the guys we're talking about, HE is the one known for his jumping ability.

Re: not quicker than Howard. Quite frankly, Howard wasn't known for his quickness so much as his explosion. Russell by contrast was specifically known for what he dubbed his "horizontal game", which allowed him to threaten more ground with his shot-blocking than Wilt, and do so without getting burned often.

I've actually said for a good while that Russell represents something close to the optimal build for a defensive anchor, and that the only question is whether future guys from the same physical mold - like Hakeem & KG - could do it even better. Howard wasn't really someone I even associated with that mold, but I have to say I think the main thing holding Howard back was just that he wasn't that smart. I mean, he was the guy most known for blocking the ball out of bounds where as Russell is the guy historically most known for blocking shots to his teammates to start fast breaks.

Re: Never seen Russell get up as high. I would imagine your ability to see tons of Russell's footage is quite limited, because it for all of us. Frankly even for players we get to see plenty, there's far from any kind of consensus as to who jumps highest in-game without in-arena triangulation data.