The fall-off when players leave Jokic is crazy

[The4thHorseman]

Give Jokic better versions of his current teammates and he wouldn’t be better? Lmao

Wade instead of an old Russ?

Kyrie instead of Jamal?

Ad instead of AG?

Come on do better.

The nuggets have done a horrible job surrounding Jokic with talent compared to who LeBron has played with.

Are you forgetting his Cleveland days? Lebron has carried literally scrubs to the Finals several times. You should do better.

Jokic won a title without another all star

So did LeBron in 2016.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/allstar/NBA_2016.html

[scrabbarista]

Watching KCP get lit up by Steph for 56 tonight while scoring exactly 0 points got me thinking about this. It wasn't so long ago that he was an "integral" part of a starting lineup that was widely regarded as the best in the league. But how much of this is really because he played with Jokic?

Looking at how former Jokic teammates have fared since leaving him and the facts are alarming. Let's take a look at five former teammates that either started with him or were playing starter-level minutes - I look at only scoring for brevity's sake and because these guys' contributions on offense really came from what their teammates set up for them.

Will Barton:

With Jokic: 14 ppg on 55% TS
Since leaving Jokic: Played 56 games with Washington and Toronto and then bounced out of the league, scored 7 ppg on 49% TS

Monte Morris:

With Jokic: 11 ppg on 57% TS
Since leaving Jokic: Bounced around on 4 teams in 3 seasons, scoring 5 ppg on 52% TS

Jeff Green:

With Jokic: 9 ppg on 61% TS
Since leaving Jokic: moved to Houston, a young and upcoming team, scoring 6 ppg on 59% TS

Bruce Brown:

With Jokic: 12 ppg on 57% TS
Since leaving Jokic: bounced around on 3 teams, scoring 11 ppg on 53% TS with more minutes

KCP:

With Jokic: 11 ppg on 60% TS
Since leaving Jokic: moved to Orlando, a young and upcoming team, scoring 9 ppg on 54% TS

Mind you, the experience of the above guys since leaving Jokic is actually well above the average: four out of the five above guys are still in the league. Other former rotation guys on the Nuggets' depth chart like Austin Rivers, Facundo Campazzo, PJ Dozier, Jamychal Green, Davon Reed and Bryn Forbes are now completely out of the league.

I only read the first page, but it works in reverse, too: players' TS% tends to skyrocket after joining Jokic.

And, as another poster pointed out, if you only include the numbers when they're on the floor with with Jokic, it's much more extreme.

I think Jokic might be the best offensive player ever the way Curry is the best shooter ever: like, it's him and then everyone else. Maybe, anyway.

[scrabbarista]

Are you forgetting his Cleveland days? Lebron has carried literally scrubs to the Finals several times. You should do better.

Jokic won a title without another all star

So did LeBron in 2016.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/allstar/NBA_2016.html

C'mon, homie.

Kyrie Irving:

2013 All-Star
2014 All-Star
2015 All-Star
2017 All-Star
2018 All-Star
2019 All-Star

[Rust_Cohle]

The drop off is huge because the team revolves around Jokic and that's how management has built the team.

The question I ask, can Jokic still be Jokic if paired with another high usage star? This was a criticism of Lebron for many years. Lebron ball talking point. The difference was that not only was 'Lebron ball' more conducive to winning but even when Lebron joined other stars, he became a weapon off the ball. Via his ability to defend 5 positions and become an offensive force on the break. Jokic will never be that guy. So he either has the ball in his hands or he's useless.

Give Jokic better versions of his current teammates and he wouldn’t be better? Lmao

Wade instead of an old Russ?

Kyrie instead of Jamal?

Ad instead of AG?

Come on do better.

The nuggets have done a horrible job surrounding Jokic with talent compared to who LeBron has played with.

Are you forgetting his Cleveland days? Lebron has carried literally scrubs to the Finals several times. You should do better.

In a shockingly terrible eastern conference. That 2007 eastern was literally the worst conference of the last 40 years. 2018 was a nice carry job yes, 2015 the team was damn good.

[scrabbarista]

Give Jokic better versions of his current teammates and he wouldn’t be better? Lmao

Wade instead of an old Russ?

Kyrie instead of Jamal?

Ad instead of AG?

Come on do better.

The nuggets have done a horrible job surrounding Jokic with talent compared to who LeBron has played with.

Give prime LeBron a squad of AG/KCP/MPJ/Jamal and whatever bench they have like Braun and see what happen. Jokic hasn't beat a single 50-win playoffs team for his entire career. LeBron hard carry a team of Big Z, Boobie, Pavlovic and Gooden to NBA Finals while his supposed 2nd best player Larry Hughes shot 34% FG in the playoffs. Joker also hasn't won a single playoffs game in the second round of playoffs without Jamal and that's with a healthy AG/MPJ and Barton scored 16+ ppg in 2021 playoffs while LeBron got Ilgauskas who scored 12+ ppg in 2007 playoffs.

Jokic beat the 49-23 Clippers in 2020 who had a 68.1 win %, and the 44-28 Jazz who had a 61.1 win %, and you’re arguing LeBron making the Finals in 2007 is more impressive when LeBron beat a 41-41 Wizards team with a 50.0 winning %, a 41-41 Nets team with a 50.0 win %, and a 53-29 Pistons team with a 64.6 win %.

Then in 2008 Lebron beat a 43-39 Wizards team with a 52.4 win %. Then in 2009 Lebron beat 39-43 Pistons team with a 47.6 win % and a 47-35 Hawks team with a 57.3 win %. Then in 2010 Lebron beat a 41-41 Bulls team with a 50.0 win %.

Lebron didn’t beat a team with a win % as good as or better than the 2020 Clippers until he teamed up with Wade and Bosh in Miami, and LeBron only beat 1 team that won 50+ games before taking his talents to South Beach.

Ouch, the truth hits hard.

James' career is padded by playing in the East.

[Dennis 37]

Bruce Brown played through injury last year. He had surgery over the summer. He is still a quality complimentary piece for a contender.

[ConSarnit]

The drop off is huge because the team revolves around Jokic and that's how management has built the team.

The question I ask, can Jokic still be Jokic if paired with another high usage star? This was a criticism of Lebron for many years. Lebron ball talking point. The difference was that not only was 'Lebron ball' more conducive to winning but even when Lebron joined other stars, he became a weapon off the ball. Via his ability to defend 5 positions and become an offensive force on the break. Jokic will never be that guy. So he either has the ball in his hands or he's useless.

Why would you ever take the ball out of his hands? That’s like saying “how good is Steph if you take away a bunch of his 3 point attempts?” You wouldn’t because you would never have anyone worthy of taking the ball out of his hands (unless you somehow had Magic Johnson on your team).

It’s flat out crazy to say Jokic would be useless without the ball when he can space the floor, be an elite roll man and can post up. Have you ever actually watched him play?

If you put Jokic on any team in the league he immediately becomes the #1 creator on that team.

[MavsDirk41]

Are you forgetting his Cleveland days? Lebron has carried literally scrubs to the Finals several times. You should do better.

Jokic won a title without another all star

So did LeBron in 2016.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/allstar/NBA_2016.html

Jamal Murray career all star selections 0
Kyrie Irving career all star selections 9
Kevin Love career all star selections 5

Lol Lebron James fans

[ConSarnit]

The D riding of Jokic is crazy.

If you don’t recognize that he’s one of the greatest offensive players of all-time then I really have to question your basketball judgement.

-elite passer for any position
-elite as both ball handler and roll man in pnr
-high 40’s midrange shooter
-36% 3pt shooter
-83% ft shooter
-consistently in the top 25th percentile for post-ups and iso scoring
-good offensive rebounder

He has almost zero flaws as an offensive player.

[levon]

You misspelled Lebron.

LBJ isnt close to Joker as a floor raiser.

I'm a huge Jokic fan, but prime LeBron was a spectacular floor raiser for much the same reason Jokic is. He was a massive individual offensive threat that could then leverage that to generate open looks for his teammates and so make the game easier for them. I think that Jokic is an even better passer and his screening is wildly important for the team. LeBron was a better defender and penetrator.

They are both absolute all time great floor raisers.

I think enough time has passed that some of these fans haven't actually witnessed prime LeBron. And I don't blame them. It was a long time ago and it's hard to catch games from Europe. A Slovenian fan posted on Reddit that they were tuning in to watch Luka but were ending up marveling at 40 year old LeBron.

[levon]

Jokic won a title without another all star

So did LeBron in 2016.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/allstar/NBA_2016.html

Jamal Murray career all star selections 0
Kyrie Irving career all star selections 9
Kevin Love career all star selections 5

Lol Lebron James fans

I'm not interested in comparing Jokic to LeBron, but the "Jokic won without an AS" argument is so stupid and pedantic. Murray averaged 26 7 6 in that finals run at age 25. At age 22 he averaged 27 7 5 in the postseason. Murray was very clearly an all-star caliber player before his career got derailed by injury, so he's clearly load managing until the postseason. Is he one of the elite guards in the league? No, but he's also not just some guy. And honestly it's a little **** up to use Murray's injury-riddled career progression to prop up Jokic.

[Optms]

LBJ isnt close to Joker as a floor raiser.

I'm a huge Jokic fan, but prime LeBron was a spectacular floor raiser for much the same reason Jokic is. He was a massive individual offensive threat that could then leverage that to generate open looks for his teammates and so make the game easier for them. I think that Jokic is an even better passer and his screening is wildly important for the team. LeBron was a better defender and penetrator.

They are both absolute all time great floor raisers.

I think enough time has passed that some of these fans haven't actually witnessed prime LeBron. And I don't blame them. It was a long time ago and it's hard to catch games from Europe. A Slovenian fan posted on Reddit that they were tuning in to watch Luka but were ending up marveling at 40 year old LeBron.

They don't have to be old enough. All the data, rosters, achievements are all there. Easily accessible to all new comers.

Therefor, saying Jokic is a better floor raiser than Lebron is like saying that the surface of the Sun isn't as hot as their breathe. It simply isn't true. Not sure if it's blatant trolling, Jokic homerism or just Lebron haters running wild at this point. Jokic isn't even a better floor raiser than Curry. Don't even argue it. Curry's resume after joining a trash organization doesn't even need to be rehashed. Joker isn't even the best REGULAR season floor raiser.

[NCHeels2008]

Jokic would be fine with the ball less, he already is known for not holding the ball long for each touch. Replace Tony Parker and Nazr Mohammad/Rasho Nesterovic with Jokic on those mid-00s Spurs and he would do just fine pinging the ball around.

[Peregrine01]

Will Barton:

With Jokic: 14 ppg on 55% TS
Since leaving Jokic: Played 56 games with Washington and Toronto and then bounced out of the league, scored 7 ppg on 49% TS

Monte Morris:
With Jokic: 11 ppg on 57% TS
Since leaving Jokic: Bounced around on 4 teams in 3 seasons, scoring 5 ppg on 52% TS

Jeff Green:

With Jokic: 9 ppg on 61% TS
Since leaving Jokic: moved to Houston, a young and upcoming team, scoring 6 ppg on 59% TS

Bruce Brown:

With Jokic: 12 ppg on 57% TS
Since leaving Jokic: bounced around on 3 teams, scoring 11 ppg on 53% TS with more minutes

KCP:

With Jokic: 11 ppg on 60% TS
Since leaving Jokic: moved to Orlando, a young and upcoming team, scoring 9 ppg on 54% TS.

Some of these guys are on the wrong side of their career, aging, and/or dealing with injuries.

For these older guys, look at the season right before Jokic to get a better apples to apples scenario. Or in the case of someone like Morris we had a full season after.

There's basically no difference with/without Jokic for these guys.


Will Barton:
Jokic rookie year when Jokic only played 20 mpg and Jokic/Barton played <10 mpg together: 14 ppg on 54% TS
With Jokic: 14 ppg on 55% TS


Monte Morris:
First season after Jokic (started career with Joker): 10 ppg, 58% TS
With Jokic: 11 ppg on 57% TS

Jeff Green:
Season before Jokic: 11 PPG, 62%
With Jokic: 9 ppg on 61% TS

Bruce Brown:
Season before Jokic: 9 PPG, 58% TS
With Jokic: 12 ppg on 57% TS

KCP:
Season before Jokic: 13 PPG, 57% TS (2 seasons before that with Lakers on better team, 10 PPG, 59% TS)
With Jokic: 11 ppg on 60% TS

You can take this a step further and look at the drop-off without Jokic on the floor when they were on the Nuggets. The following data spans the last 5 seasons:

Barton:
With Jokic: 56% TS
Without Jokic: 50% TS

Morris:
With Jokic: 59%
Without Jokic: 54%

Jeff Green:
With Jokic: 64%
Without Jokic: 57%

Bruce Brown:
With Jokic: 64%
Without Jokic: 51%

KCP:
With Jokic: 61%
Without Jokic: 56%

There's a very large drop-off for his current teammates too.

[CodeBreaker]

The drop off is huge because the team revolves around Jokic and that's how management has built the team.

The question I ask, can Jokic still be Jokic if paired with another high usage star? This was a criticism of Lebron for many years. Lebron ball talking point. The difference was that not only was 'Lebron ball' more conducive to winning but even when Lebron joined other stars, he became a weapon off the ball. Via his ability to defend 5 positions and become an offensive force on the break. Jokic will never be that guy. So he either has the ball in his hands or he's useless.

Lol you obviously don't watch Jokic play. Jokic ability to play off-ball, set screens, touch passes, spot-ups is what separates him to being the best offensive engine ever unlike heliocentric ball-dominant guys like Lebron, Luka, Harden. Go watch Jokic tapes before commenting something like this, it's laughable.

Westbrook right now is feasting with Jokic, while he was turned into a brick-laying machine with Lebron

[CodeBreaker]

Jokic is the best floor-raiser of all time

Cap-a-holic

Lebron and he’s not even close

Just like how Lebron made Russ serviceable, and Jokic made Russ look like he no longer belong in this league... oh wait

[bovice]

I love Jokic but this exposes a big flaw with floor raisers and why it's easier to build a contender around an elite shot creator and an elite playmaker. it's why Kobe and Jordan have more rings than LeBron.

Neither of them was even in the same league as playmaker as Joker is. Give Joker either of their championship teams and watch what happens.

I'm not saying Jokic is bad lol. I actually have Jokic in my top 5 all time, I think he's amazing. what I'm saying is when you're playmaking is so elite that you turn average players into great players the teams they're on have to overpay those average players hurting their chances to win. it's why having a player like Kobe and MJ is more beneficial. Peyton Manning made Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark all-pro players when they had no business being there and it hindered the colt's ability to sign players to fill the team's weaknesses.

[Optms]

The drop off is huge because the team revolves around Jokic and that's how management has built the team.

The question I ask, can Jokic still be Jokic if paired with another high usage star? This was a criticism of Lebron for many years. Lebron ball talking point. The difference was that not only was 'Lebron ball' more conducive to winning but even when Lebron joined other stars, he became a weapon off the ball. Via his ability to defend 5 positions and become an offensive force on the break. Jokic will never be that guy. So he either has the ball in his hands or he's useless.

Lol you obviously don't watch Jokic play. Jokic ability to play off-ball, set screens, touch passes, spot-ups is what separates him to being the best offensive engine ever unlike heliocentric ball-dominant guys like Lebron, Luka, Harden. Go watch Jokic tapes before commenting something like this, it's laughable.

Westbrook right now is feasting with Jokic, while he was turned into a brick-laying machine with Lebron

No, you need to watch Lebron. He literally does everything you mentioned. Screening, touch passes, spotting up. Can Jokic however defend 5 positions and run the break?

Ridiculous take. There is someone who has separated himself from the rest here but it isn't who you think it is. Lebron has proven he can take scrubs to the Finals while also playing with stars. Two things that Jokic hasn't ever done. He may never be able to as effective with another star either. We need to see it. For a guy who is the "greatest floor raiser" he needs to stop getting bounced in the second round. At least get the 1st seed in the conference. He can't even do that. So he literally has no argument over Lebron's resume of carrying players that spans over two freaking decades.

[ConSarnit]

The drop off is huge because the team revolves around Jokic and that's how management has built the team.

The question I ask, can Jokic still be Jokic if paired with another high usage star? This was a criticism of Lebron for many years. Lebron ball talking point. The difference was that not only was 'Lebron ball' more conducive to winning but even when Lebron joined other stars, he became a weapon off the ball. Via his ability to defend 5 positions and become an offensive force on the break. Jokic will never be that guy. So he either has the ball in his hands or he's useless.

Lol you obviously don't watch Jokic play. Jokic ability to play off-ball, set screens, touch passes, spot-ups is what separates him to being the best offensive engine ever unlike heliocentric ball-dominant guys like Lebron, Luka, Harden. Go watch Jokic tapes before commenting something like this, it's laughable.

Westbrook right now is feasting with Jokic, while he was turned into a brick-laying machine with Lebron

No, you need to watch Lebron. He literally does everything you mentioned. Screening, touch passes, spotting up. Can Jokic however defend 5 positions and run the break?

Ridiculous take. There is someone who has separated himself from the rest here but it isn't who you think it is. Lebron has proven he can take scrubs to the Finals while also playing with stars. Two things that Jokic hasn't ever done. He may never be able to as effective with another star either. We need to see it. For a guy who is the "greatest floor raiser" he needs to stop getting bounced in the second round. At least get the 1st seed in the conference. He can't even do that. So he literally has no argument over Lebron's resume of carrying players that spans over two freaking decades.

How are you going to call someone’s take ridiculous when you called Jokic “useless” off-ball?

You make some relevant points but you kill any credibility you might have when you call Jokic useless off-ball.

[The4thHorseman]

Jokic won a title without another all star

So did LeBron in 2016.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/allstar/NBA_2016.html

Jamal Murray career all star selections 0
Kyrie Irving career all star selections 9
Kevin Love career all star selections 5

Lol Lebron James fans

But neither Kyrie or Love were all stars in 2016. Funny how you think it's more important to put emphasis on how a player plays for half a season than they do in the postseason.