LeBron has the worst plus/minus of any player on a good team

[Texas Chuck]

I am old. And was a Mavs fan in the 90s when they were the worst team in North American professional sports but I had WGN and Scottie Pippen was my favorite player so I watched 80% of Jordan regular season games and every playoff game basically. I need to watch actual good basketball in addition to what the little Mavs were throwing out there.

Mike was a great player. Obviously. Lebrons' just exceeded him. And that's okay. It takes away none of Mike's greatness. It's not zero sum. I'm not a Lebron fan myself. But I can't ignore what's he's done just because I like other players more lol.

[G35]

Lebron fans will post every stat they can find if it supports Lebron positively.

But don't let there be any stats that don't support Lebron, Ohhh Lawwd! Check the medicine cabinets and the dispensaries, here come the fives stages of grief.....

[TheGOATRises007]

I feel so bad for this vast cabal of posters who only exist to hate Lebron James. The best basketball player of all-time who has been the face of this league we love for over 20 years with nary a scandal and elite play from damn near stem to stern.

I can't imagine how much one's own life has to suck to spend this much constant time and energy attacking a guy like LeBron. But I sure hope all of you meet someone, or re-connect with family, or find a cause, or just a good dog. You need some positivity in life. This ain't healthy.

You mean the best basketball player “you” have ever seen? You speak for everyone?

Lmao pretty sure he’s seen Jordan.

Btw, most people that believe LeBron is the GOAT have also seen Jordan. Shocking I know. And I know it just shatters the #1 argument people have against LeBron: “well you just haven’t seen Jordan”.

That wasn't his point at all.

He was just saying it's Chuck's opinion

[Rust_Cohle]

I feel so bad for this vast cabal of posters who only exist to hate Lebron James. The best basketball player of all-time who has been the face of this league we love for over 20 years with nary a scandal and elite play from damn near stem to stern.

I can't imagine how much one's own life has to suck to spend this much constant time and energy attacking a guy like LeBron. But I sure hope all of you meet someone, or re-connect with family, or find a cause, or just a good dog. You need some positivity in life. This ain't healthy.

You mean the best basketball player “you” have ever seen? You speak for everyone?

Lmao pretty sure he’s seen Jordan.

Btw, most people that believe LeBron is the GOAT have also seen Jordan. Shocking I know. And I know it just shatters the #1 argument people have against LeBron: “well you just haven’t seen Jordan”.

That's not true, LeBron grades out much higher with Gen Z who never saw him play. Gen X and millennials will have Jordan well ahead but that isn't to say folks from that era that prefer LeBron didn't see Jordan as well. But a huge chunk of people who have LeBron as the GOAT never saw MJ in real time. It's mostly the younger crowd that understandably gravitates to LeBron since they actually saw him.


2019: When 127 players were polled Jordan earned 73% of the votes, with James second at 11.9% (a gap of 61.1%)
2023: When 103 players were polled Jordan earned 58.3% of the votes, with James second at 33% (a gap of 25.3%)
2024: When 142 players were polled Jordan earned 45.9% of the votes, with James second at 42.1% (a gap of just 3.8%)

[therealbig3]

You mean the best basketball player “you” have ever seen? You speak for everyone?

Lmao pretty sure he’s seen Jordan.

Btw, most people that believe LeBron is the GOAT have also seen Jordan. Shocking I know. And I know it just shatters the #1 argument people have against LeBron: “well you just haven’t seen Jordan”.

That's not true, LeBron grades out much higher with Gen Z who never saw him play. Gen X and millennials will have Jordan well ahead but that isn't to say folks from that era that prefer LeBron didn't see Jordan as well. But a huge chunk of people who have LeBron as the GOAT never saw MJ in real time. It's mostly the younger crowd that understandably gravitates to LeBron since they actually saw him.


2019: When 127 players were polled Jordan earned 73% of the votes, with James second at 11.9% (a gap of 61.1%)
2023: When 103 players were polled Jordan earned 58.3% of the votes, with James second at 33% (a gap of 25.3%)
2024: When 142 players were polled Jordan earned 45.9% of the votes, with James second at 42.1% (a gap of just 3.8%)

Not seeing Jordan play in real time doesn’t mean they haven’t seen him play. There’s no special status given to people that saw him play in real time vs people watching tape after the fact. In fact, pretty sure those that have watched Jordan after the fact have seen his games more recently and with more objectivity than those that saw it live.

[MavsDirk41]

I feel so bad for this vast cabal of posters who only exist to hate Lebron James. The best basketball player of all-time who has been the face of this league we love for over 20 years with nary a scandal and elite play from damn near stem to stern.

I can't imagine how much one's own life has to suck to spend this much constant time and energy attacking a guy like LeBron. But I sure hope all of you meet someone, or re-connect with family, or find a cause, or just a good dog. You need some positivity in life. This ain't healthy.

You mean the best basketball player “you” have ever seen? You speak for everyone?

Lmao pretty sure he’s seen Jordan.

Btw, most people that believe LeBron is the GOAT have also seen Jordan. Shocking I know. And I know it just shatters the #1 argument people have against LeBron: “well you just haven’t seen Jordan”.

Again someone else speaking for other people lol. Common theme on here.

[MavsDirk41]

I am old. And was a Mavs fan in the 90s when they were the worst team in North American professional sports but I had WGN and Scottie Pippen was my favorite player so I watched 80% of Jordan regular season games and every playoff game basically. I need to watch actual good basketball in addition to what the little Mavs were throwing out there.

Mike was a great player. Obviously. Lebrons' just exceeded him. And that's okay. It takes away none of Mike's greatness. It's not zero sum. I'm not a Lebron fan myself. But I can't ignore what's he's done just because I like other players more lol.

I am 49 turning 50 in August. Im from the metroplex as well. I went to a Mavs clinic when i was 12 and played one on one against Brad Davis. I too watched Bulls games on WGN. I dont think James has exceeded Jordan or Kareem quiet frankly. So are you right or am i right? Lol i typically just say “My opinion is this player is greater than” not “Obviously James has exceeded so and so”

James is obviously the greatest based on you saying so lol?

[therealbig3]

You mean the best basketball player “you” have ever seen? You speak for everyone?

Lmao pretty sure he’s seen Jordan.

Btw, most people that believe LeBron is the GOAT have also seen Jordan. Shocking I know. And I know it just shatters the #1 argument people have against LeBron: “well you just haven’t seen Jordan”.

Again someone else speaking for other people lol. Common theme on here.

Interesting, because you assuming he didn’t see Jordan play is also you speaking for someone else.

I happen to have had many basketball discussions with Texas Chuck and know for a fact that he’s familiar with earlier eras.

[MavsDirk41]

Lmao pretty sure he’s seen Jordan.

Btw, most people that believe LeBron is the GOAT have also seen Jordan. Shocking I know. And I know it just shatters the #1 argument people have against LeBron: “well you just haven’t seen Jordan”.

Again someone else speaking for other people lol. Common theme on here.

Interesting, because you assuming he didn’t see Jordan play is also you speaking for someone else.

I happen to have had many basketball discussions with Texas Chuck and know for a fact that he’s familiar with earlier eras.

Wasnt speaking for Chuck…your most people who have James as goat saw Jordan play. You dont know that lol. Just because i have Jordan as the goat doesnt mean i dont think there are other people who have a case and when you think about it, there are probably 5 players who have a case for “best ever.” The “obviously” this player is the goat is ridiculous. Russell has the most championships. Jordan 2 3 peats. Wilt the most dominant individual stats. James the longevity. Kareem the most iconic shot in basketball plus the accolades. There is no “its this player by a mile”

[Texas Chuck]

I am old. And was a Mavs fan in the 90s when they were the worst team in North American professional sports but I had WGN and Scottie Pippen was my favorite player so I watched 80% of Jordan regular season games and every playoff game basically. I need to watch actual good basketball in addition to what the little Mavs were throwing out there.

Mike was a great player. Obviously. Lebrons' just exceeded him. And that's okay. It takes away none of Mike's greatness. It's not zero sum. I'm not a Lebron fan myself. But I can't ignore what's he's done just because I like other players more lol.

I am 49 turning 50 in August. Im from the metroplex as well. I went to a Mavs clinic when i was 12 and played one on one against Brad Davis. I too watched Bulls games on WGN. I dont think James has exceeded Jordan or Kareem quiet frankly. So are you right or am i right? Lol i typically just say “My opinion is this player is greater than” not “Obviously James has exceeded so and so”

James is obviously the greatest based on you saying so lol?

I think you put too much stock into what I post if I need to preface every post with imo. Obviously its my opinion. I shouldn't have to point that out.

I don't claim to speak for you or for anyone else. Nor do I feel like I should have to make obvious disclaimers but for you just put an understand imo in front of all my posts from now on. That will help you understand what everyone else already does lol.

[Iwasawitness]

I am old. And was a Mavs fan in the 90s when they were the worst team in North American professional sports but I had WGN and Scottie Pippen was my favorite player so I watched 80% of Jordan regular season games and every playoff game basically. I need to watch actual good basketball in addition to what the little Mavs were throwing out there.

Mike was a great player. Obviously. Lebrons' just exceeded him. And that's okay. It takes away none of Mike's greatness. It's not zero sum. I'm not a Lebron fan myself. But I can't ignore what's he's done just because I like other players more lol.

I am 49 turning 50 in August. Im from the metroplex as well. I went to a Mavs clinic when i was 12 and played one on one against Brad Davis. I too watched Bulls games on WGN. I dont think James has exceeded Jordan or Kareem quiet frankly. So are you right or am i right? Lol i typically just say “My opinion is this player is greater than” not “Obviously James has exceeded so and so”

James is obviously the greatest based on you saying so lol?

You’re getting way too defensive over someone giving their opinion.

[Rust_Cohle]

Lmao pretty sure he’s seen Jordan.

Btw, most people that believe LeBron is the GOAT have also seen Jordan. Shocking I know. And I know it just shatters the #1 argument people have against LeBron: “well you just haven’t seen Jordan”.

That's not true, LeBron grades out much higher with Gen Z who never saw him play. Gen X and millennials will have Jordan well ahead but that isn't to say folks from that era that prefer LeBron didn't see Jordan as well. But a huge chunk of people who have LeBron as the GOAT never saw MJ in real time. It's mostly the younger crowd that understandably gravitates to LeBron since they actually saw him.


2019: When 127 players were polled Jordan earned 73% of the votes, with James second at 11.9% (a gap of 61.1%)
2023: When 103 players were polled Jordan earned 58.3% of the votes, with James second at 33% (a gap of 25.3%)
2024: When 142 players were polled Jordan earned 45.9% of the votes, with James second at 42.1% (a gap of just 3.8%)

Not seeing Jordan play in real time doesn’t mean they haven’t seen him play. There’s no special status given to people that saw him play in real time vs people watching tape after the fact. In fact, pretty sure those that have watched Jordan after the fact have seen his games more recently and with more objectivity than those that saw it live.

Disagree completely. Massive difference between watching it unfold on real time and watching highlights on YouTube. Lebron lovers and MJ haters aren’t watching hours and hours of MJ. They’ll just make fun of the last dance (which was an MJ commercial anyway). 90% of the people here who have Bird in the top 10 have probably seen less than 10 total hours of him playing even on YouTube. People are much more into analytics than watching hours of video of old games.

[ScrantonBulls]

I am old. And was a Mavs fan in the 90s when they were the worst team in North American professional sports but I had WGN and Scottie Pippen was my favorite player so I watched 80% of Jordan regular season games and every playoff game basically. I need to watch actual good basketball in addition to what the little Mavs were throwing out there.

Mike was a great player. Obviously. Lebrons' just exceeded him. And that's okay. It takes away none of Mike's greatness. It's not zero sum. I'm not a Lebron fan myself. But I can't ignore what's he's done just because I like other players more lol.

I am 49 turning 50 in August. Im from the metroplex as well. I went to a Mavs clinic when i was 12 and played one on one against Brad Davis. I too watched Bulls games on WGN. I dont think James has exceeded Jordan or Kareem quiet frankly. So are you right or am i right? Lol i typically just say “My opinion is this player is greater than” not “Obviously James has exceeded so and so”

James is obviously the greatest based on you saying so lol?

I think you put too much stock into what I post if I need to preface every post with imo. Obviously its my opinion. I shouldn't have to point that out.

I don't claim to speak for you or for anyone else. Nor do I feel like I should have to make obvious disclaimers but for you just put an understand imo in front of all my posts from now on. That will help you understand what everyone else already does lol.

I don't know why but this made me crack up laughing.

From here on out, if somebody doesn't explicitly point out that what they are saying is their opinion, we must put them on blast for speaking on behalf of others and speaking as if what they are saying is an absolute fact.

[ScrantonBulls]

That's not true, LeBron grades out much higher with Gen Z who never saw him play. Gen X and millennials will have Jordan well ahead but that isn't to say folks from that era that prefer LeBron didn't see Jordan as well. But a huge chunk of people who have LeBron as the GOAT never saw MJ in real time. It's mostly the younger crowd that understandably gravitates to LeBron since they actually saw him.


2019: When 127 players were polled Jordan earned 73% of the votes, with James second at 11.9% (a gap of 61.1%)
2023: When 103 players were polled Jordan earned 58.3% of the votes, with James second at 33% (a gap of 25.3%)
2024: When 142 players were polled Jordan earned 45.9% of the votes, with James second at 42.1% (a gap of just 3.8%)

Not seeing Jordan play in real time doesn’t mean they haven’t seen him play. There’s no special status given to people that saw him play in real time vs people watching tape after the fact. In fact, pretty sure those that have watched Jordan after the fact have seen his games more recently and with more objectivity than those that saw it live.

Disagree completely. Massive difference between watching it unfold on real time and watching highlights on YouTube. Lebron lovers and MJ haters aren’t watching hours and hours of MJ. They’ll just make fun of the last dance (which was an MJ commercial anyway). 90% of the people here who have Bird in the top 10 have probably seen less than 10 total hours of him playing even on YouTube. People are much more into analytics than watching hours of video of old games.

Nobody said "watching highlights". You just threw that in there to strengthen your weak argument. There is a difference between watching something 30 years ago and rewatching it today. The human memory is lousy. Trusting your memory to break down games from 30 years ago is laughable. That's why we use stats. Rewatching the game today is obviously the superior way to evaluate a player/game.

The whole "you had to watch it live" argument is used by people who aren't able to have a legitimate debate about player(s). We typically see it when fans claim a former is better than a current one, but they don't have the ability to make an legitimate argument using stats. It's a common last ditch effort when somebody got smoked in a debate and has nothing else left.

[therealbig3]

That's not true, LeBron grades out much higher with Gen Z who never saw him play. Gen X and millennials will have Jordan well ahead but that isn't to say folks from that era that prefer LeBron didn't see Jordan as well. But a huge chunk of people who have LeBron as the GOAT never saw MJ in real time. It's mostly the younger crowd that understandably gravitates to LeBron since they actually saw him.


2019: When 127 players were polled Jordan earned 73% of the votes, with James second at 11.9% (a gap of 61.1%)
2023: When 103 players were polled Jordan earned 58.3% of the votes, with James second at 33% (a gap of 25.3%)
2024: When 142 players were polled Jordan earned 45.9% of the votes, with James second at 42.1% (a gap of just 3.8%)

Not seeing Jordan play in real time doesn’t mean they haven’t seen him play. There’s no special status given to people that saw him play in real time vs people watching tape after the fact. In fact, pretty sure those that have watched Jordan after the fact have seen his games more recently and with more objectivity than those that saw it live.

Disagree completely. Massive difference between watching it unfold on real time and watching highlights on YouTube. Lebron lovers and MJ haters aren’t watching hours and hours of MJ. They’ll just make fun of the last dance (which was an MJ commercial anyway). 90% of the people here who have Bird in the top 10 have probably seen less than 10 total hours of him playing even on YouTube. People are much more into analytics than watching hours of video of old games.

I think that’s a huge assumption just because people aren’t ranking the players you watched growing up as highly as you.

[MrPainfulTruth]

I feel so bad for this vast cabal of posters who only exist to hate Lebron James. The best basketball player of all-time who has been the face of this league we love for over 20 years with nary a scandal and elite play from damn near stem to stern.

I can't imagine how much one's own life has to suck to spend this much constant time and energy attacking a guy like LeBron. But I sure hope all of you meet someone, or re-connect with family, or find a cause, or just a good dog. You need some positivity in life. This ain't healthy.

You mean the best basketball player “you” have ever seen? You speak for everyone?

Lmao pretty sure he’s seen Jordan.

Btw, most people that believe LeBron is the GOAT have also seen Jordan. Shocking I know. And I know it just shatters the #1 argument people have against LeBron: “well you just haven’t seen Jordan”.

you know nothing about either of those things, and just make unsubstanciated claims and present them as facts, to go on and "dismantle" a strawman you just created. So much nonsense in such a short post, thats quite remarkable.

[Jta444]

Jordan is better than Lebron. Kawhi and Jimmy have challenged Lebron before. And Mike is leagues above those two. Jordan’s midrange is so money that Lebron’s advantage in rebounding and passing don’t matter.

Lebron made the Block, but it was Kyrie who made the Shot. Jordan did both those in 98. Case closed.

[MrPainfulTruth]

For some reason this has diverted from a very good, educational on-topic discussion of unemotional, verifiable number into the 10billionth "LBJ vs. Jordan" nonsense.

Can we come back to possible interprtations of those numbers? LBJ having the worst +/- of his team for this season?

[MrPainfulTruth]

Because his role was to make the Lakers terrible bench depth sustainable for stretches all year.


Even with this terrible plus-minis he was top 30 in the impact stats that use this plus-minis and adjust for teammates.

That means he played more minutes with the bench than with the starters?

Wouldn't that also imply mostly playing against bench guys?

[zimpy27]

Because his role was to make the Lakers terrible bench depth sustainable for stretches all year.


Even with this terrible plus-minis he was top 30 in the impact stats that use this plus-minis and adjust for teammates.

That means he played more minutes with the bench than with the starters?

Wouldn't that also imply mostly playing against bench guys?

Not necessarily, different teams have different rotation strategies.