The EuroLeague's GOAT Vote: All-Time Top 25 Players Ranked From #1 (Vassilis Spanoulis) To #25 (Kostas Sloukas)

[Mirotic12]

Crazy that you could put the top 12 guys on one team, all in their absolute prime and they'd be a 30 win team in the NBA. The talent disparity is insane.

Vassilis Spanoulis (G)
Sergio Llull (G)
Nando De Colo (G)
Ramunas Siskauskas (F)
Nikola Vujcic (F)
Mike James (G)
Dimitris Diamantidis (G)
Anthony Parker (G)
Vasilije Micic (G)
Sergio Rodriguez (G)
Edy Tavares (C)
Milos Teodosic (G)

The top 12 guys on the EuroLeague GOAT poll were mostly guards, with many of them being point guards and/or primary ball handlers. You couldn't make an actual real functioning team comprised of mainly point guards, and two bigs. It wouldn't be balanced enough, it wouldn't fit together on offense, and it wouldn't work on defense and rebounding.

Instead, you would have to take the top 12 players by position, not just overall, and make a team out of that. That would then be a lineup to compare to NBA teams.

[GeorgeMarcus]

I feel like I'm missing something. Where is Sabonis on the all-time rank?

He's number 29 on the fan's vote.

Why isn't he higher? I thought he was regarded as someone who would have been as an all time force had he played in the NBA during his prime. Like David Robinson level. Surely someone like that would rank higher than 29? Was he hampered by injuries or something?

[Mirotic12]

I feel like I'm missing something. Where is Sabonis on the all-time rank?

He's number 29 on the fan's vote.

Why isn't he higher? I thought he was regarded as someone who would have been as an all time force had he played in the NBA during his prime. Like David Robinson level. Surely someone like that would rank higher than 29? Was he hampered by injuries or something?

He was injured a lot of the time, at least early in his career, in the '80s. As I mentioned in earlier posts in the thread, he had a better EuroLeague career than Mike James, Manu Ginobili, Luka Doncic, and Bogdan Bogdanovic did, and they all made the Top 25.

I think the guy with the worst resume on the Top 25 is Mike James. So I think Sabonis should have made it over him, at least.

[LuDux1]

I feel like I'm missing something. Where is Sabonis on the all-time rank?

He's number 29 on the fan's vote.

Why isn't he higher? I thought he was regarded as someone who would have been as an all time force had he played in the NBA during his prime. Like David Robinson level. Surely someone like that would rank higher than 29? Was he hampered by injuries or something?

Recency bias, countries where he didn't play with big voting blocks, reputation of Sabonis as star of NT competitions, etc

[Gusto1903]

Jaka Lakovic is criminally underrated, damn

[Mirotic12]

Jaka Lakovic is criminally underrated, damn

It's probably because of all the times he choked and underachieved with that absolutely stacked Slovenia national during the prime of his career. That was a stacked national player pool, and they never managed to win even a bronze medal at any major tournament. And it was almost always some kind of epic choke job by them that was why they got eliminated. Some of them being among the worst chokes jobs ever in history, like in 2007 against Greece.

Lakovic was the guy that was running Slovenia's offense and handling the ball the most in those teams, so naturally, a lot of the criticism for their failures to medal went to him. That would be my guess as to why. Obviously, that shouldn't matter at all, because that was FIBA national team play and not EuroLeague competition, and that has nothing at all to do with the EuroLeague. But he got the choker and especially the underachiever label stuck to him pretty hard because of that.

Lakovic won a EuroLeague championship with Barsa, as the team's usual game closing 4th quarter point guard (Rikcy Rubio didn't usually play in the most important moments), but that was really pretty much Juan Carlos Navarro's and Pete Mickeal's team, and Lakovic was just a help role player on that team. So that probably wasn't enough to shake the choker and underachiever label that he got while playing on Slovenia's national team.

FIBA national team play shouldn't be used at all for rating and ranking EuroLeague players (that would never be used to rank NBA players), as it has nothing to do with the EuroLeague, but that would be my guess as to why Lakovic didn't fair so well in the voting.

[Mirotic12]

The term absolutely can be used subjectively to refer to the level of players, which the other poster was clearly doing. Also, there are some clearly defined tiers (Varsity, JV, etc), but international leagues are not clearly defined levels.

Yes they are.

Do you have a link that shows the objective tier list?

European Professional Club Basketball Tier 1:

EuroLeague

European Professional Club Basketball Tier 2: (two 2nd tier leagues, and no 3rd tier league)

EuroCup Basketball / FIBA Basketball Champions League (FIBA BCL)

European Professional Club Basketball Tier 4:

FIBA Europe Cup

[Myth]

Yes they are.

Do you have a link that shows the objective tier list?

European Tier 1:

EuroLeague

European Tier 2 / Tier 3:

EuroCup Basketball / FIBA Basketball Champions League (BCL)

or

European Tier 2 / Tier 3:

FIBA Basketball Champions League (BCL) / EuroCup Basketball

European Tier 4:

FIBA Europe Cup

Go back to the original conversation. We were talking about comparing tiers of international leagues, such as how far below the NBA Euroleague is below the NBA. What you shared, is just European and not the point of the discussion (and you b still failed to share a link of objective tiers, but it is moot as it was not what the discussion was about).

[Mirotic12]

Go back to the original conversation. We were talking about comparing tiers of international leagues, such as how far below the NBA Euroleague is below the NBA. What you shared, is just European and not the point of the discussion (and you b still failed to share a link of objective tiers, but it is moot as it was not what the discussion was about).

All of those leagues are international leagues. You said international leagues. Or are you suggesting that pan European leagues are not international leagues?

[Myth]

Go back to the original conversation. We were talking about comparing tiers of international leagues, such as how far below the NBA Euroleague is below the NBA. What you shared, is just European and not the point of the discussion (and you b still failed to share a link of objective tiers, but it is moot as it was not what the discussion was about).

All of those leagues are international leagues. You said international leagues. Or are you suggesting that pan European leagues are not international leagues?

Are you dense? Go re-read our conversation. You were talking about tiers between NBA and Euroleague. I said that it was subjective, you disagreed. Just because you found one sentence and disputed it out of context doesn’t mean what you posted was relevant to the conversation. You specifically said “league tiers are very clearly defined” in a conversation about how many tiers are between NBA and Euroleague.

[Mirotic12]

Are you dense? Go re-read our conversation. You were talking about tiers between NBA and Euroleague. I said that it was subjective, you disagreed. Just because you found one sentence and disputed it out of context doesn’t mean what you posted was relevant to the conversation. You specifically said “league tiers are very clearly defined” in a conversation about how many tiers are between NBA and Euroleague.

Because they are. Someone was talking about tiers of players. Two entirely different things. Player tiers are one's opinion. League tiers are clearly defined. Two completely different types of criteria.

[Myth]

Are you dense? Go re-read our conversation. You were talking about tiers between NBA and Euroleague. I said that it was subjective, you disagreed. Just because you found one sentence and disputed it out of context doesn’t mean what you posted was relevant to the conversation. You specifically said “league tiers are very clearly defined” in a conversation about how many tiers are between NBA and Euroleague.

Because they are. Someone was talking about tiers of players. Two entirely different things. Player tiers are one's opinion. League tiers are clearly defined. Two completely different types of criteria.

League tiers between NBA, Euroleague, and other leagues around the world are not clearly defined, which was the discussion. Neither that nor tiers veteran players in the leagues are clearly defined. You waited over a month to answer something completely different from the conversation we were having lol. I genuinely can’t tell if you are trolling or really can’t track the conversation but think you did.

[Mirotic12]

How is Luka not the clear #1 here?

Luka Doncic had one really great EuroLeague season. But that was the only good EuroLeague season he had. The other years, he was either an end of the bench player, or a help role player. So not enough to be the #1 overall EuroLeague player of all time.

[Mirotic12]

Calathes not making the list is preposterous, he's easily one of the best passers of all time.

On a side note, even though the NBA is way ahead in talent, I still enjoy more watching euroleague games, more exciting, better atmosphere , and much less annoying timeouts.

Not really. Nick Calathes might be the worst shooter ever in the EuroLeague at the point guard position. His lack of shooting cost his teams important loses for years. Panathinaikos lost several EuroLeague playoff series because he couldn't shoot. The opposing teams would just leave him wide open and make his team play 4 on 5 on offense, not letting his passing beat their defense, and just daring him to shoot. And year after year, Panathinaikos was eliminated from the EuroLeague playoffs, because he just shot brick after brick. When he was the so-called "leader of Panathinaikos", they had a record of 1-12 in EuroLeague playoff games because of that.

It's not EuroLeague related, but the same exact thing happened to that whole era of the Greek national team. For years, in tournament after tournament, at the elimination rounds, the opposing teams would leave him open, play to defend against his passing, and just dare him to shoot. And Greece was eliminated from tournament after tournament, because he either made his team play 4 on 5 on offense, or he shot brick after brick.

So it wasn't just something related to what team he was on, the coach's system, teammates, or anything like that. It was because he was an offensive liability against a good set half court defense.

Calathes was not one of the top 25 EuroLeague players. Most definitely not.

[azcatz11]

No, he didn't. And that troll is really tired and played out.



Shane Larkin didn't actually win a EuroLeague MVP. He's been using that exact same phrase almost every time anything to do with the EuroLeague is mentioned on the forum.

I guess he thinks it's clever or something.

Your refutations aren't what you think they are. Just the fact that those players are MVP candidates proves their point about the talent gap. You're not really refuting the point. Larkin, James, Nunn, Micic, Vezenkov, Tavares, all belong to the same category of NBA players anyway.

I think Euroleague is usually a better watch than regular season NBA, but there's a massive talent gap between the two leagues no matter how you slice it.

They claimed Larkin won the MVP in the EuroLeague. That was the claim that was made. I simply said he didn't win it, which is factually true and correct. So my refutation was most certainly pertinent.

Do you think that in this forum no one would point out the error if someone claimed that Tim Hardaway was NBA MVP? Of course it would be pointed out, and of course it would be a pertinent refutation of an incorrect statement.

Why do you keep quoting me and the other post? I don’t care about your opinion please give it a rest for literally the 5th time

[Blame Rasho]

Your refutations aren't what you think they are. Just the fact that those players are MVP candidates proves their point about the talent gap. You're not really refuting the point. Larkin, James, Nunn, Micic, Vezenkov, Tavares, all belong to the same category of NBA players anyway.

I think Euroleague is usually a better watch than regular season NBA, but there's a massive talent gap between the two leagues no matter how you slice it.

They claimed Larkin won the MVP in the EuroLeague. That was the claim that was made. I simply said he didn't win it, which is factually true and correct. So my refutation was most certainly pertinent.

Do you think that in this forum no one would point out the error if someone claimed that Tim Hardaway was NBA MVP? Of course it would be pointed out, and of course it would be a pertinent refutation of an incorrect statement.

Why do you keep quoting me and the other post? I don’t care about your opinion please give it a rest for literally the 5th time

It is hard for his 197 iq to comprehend that.

He loves talking about the stupid euroleague… has 35 posts and counting in this thread along with his circle jerk obsession with Vassilis Spanoulis.

[Mirotic12]

Why do you keep quoting me and the other post? I don’t care about your opinion please give it a rest for literally the 5th time

Shane Larkin was never the EuroLeague MVP, yet you have stated that he was.

Clarifying that factually, Shane Larkin was not the EuroLeague MVP, is not an opinion. It's simply stating the truth and the facts.

When an incorrect statement that is factually wrong and false is made in a thread, you can expect that it will be pointed out that it was factually incorrect by someone. Clarifying actual correct facts has absolutely nothing at all to do with anyone's opinion.

[Mirotic12]

Crazy that you could put the top 12 guys on one team, all in their absolute prime and they'd be a 30 win team in the NBA. The talent disparity is insane.

So coming back to this, doing it by positions, in order to make an actually properly functioning team that would work to compare to NBA teams, a 12 man EuroLeague roster, based on the EuroLeague's all-time time GOAT vote, would look like this:

All-Time EuroLeague 12 Man Roster:

G Vassilis Spanoulis / Mike James / Dimitris Diamantidis
G Sergio Llull / Nando De Colo / Anthony Parker
F Ramunas Siskauskas / Dejan Bodiroga
F Nikola Vujcic / Georgios Printezis
C Edy Tavares / Kyle Hines

So that's what an all-time EuroLeague 12 man roster, that actually could function properly by position would look like. So that would be what you could compare to NBA teams.

Traditionally, the EuroLeague selects 10 players for it's All-League teams (FIBA European Selection Team / All- EuroLeague Team). So the All-Time All- EuroLeague Team would look like this:

All-Time All-EuroLeague Team:

G Vassilis Spanoulis / Mike James
G Sergio Llull / Nando De Colo
F Ramunas Siskauskas / Dejan Bodiroga
F Nikola Vujcic / Georgios Printezis
C Edy Tavares / Kyle Hines

The First, Second, and Third All-Time All-EuroLeague Teams would look like this:

All-Time All-EuroLeague First Team:

G Vassilis Spanoulis
G Sergio Llull
SF Ramunas Siskauskas
F Nikola Vujcic
C Edy Tavares

All-Time All-EuroLeague Second Team:

G Mike James
G Nando De Colo
F Dejan Bodiroga
F Georgios Printezis
C Kyle Hines

All-Time All-EuroLeague Third Team:

G Dimitris Diamantidis
G Anthony Parker
F Rudy Fernandez
F Theodoros Papaloukas
C Mike Batiste

[mcmurphy]

All-Time All-EuroLeague First Team:

G Vassilis Spanoulis
G Sergio Llull
SF Ramunas Siskauskas
F Nikola Vujcic
C Edy Tavares

PG Djordjevic
SG Petrovic
SF Kukoc
PF Radja
C Sabonis 1986 (22 yo, before Achille's)

This team under 23 years old would have dismantled the team you posted in terms of talent... and any European who has seen them play knows that.

[Handlez]

People knocking European basketball while watching dudes in the NBA putting up numbers like it's a video game.

Would never happen in Europe.