Have Giannis and Jokic "changed the game"?

[BelgradeNugget]

So let's see

Oscar Robertson -> Magic Johnson
Dr J, Skywalker David Thompson -> MJ
Detlef Schrempf, Rick Smiths -> Dirk
Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf -> Steph Curry

Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf even introduced protesting National anthem and was banned from the NBA at the time, before it was desirable behavior in the bubble...

...but no one was hooking, and foul baiting on offense (Divac and Many were famous floppers on defense) before Harden. He influenced a lot of players like Trae, Embiid, SGA...I mean have you ever seen players guarding with their hands behind their backs before Harden?

Rick Smits to Dirk? Not really
Even Schrempf, this is more because he's german. There were tall ball handlers, but Dirk had center height, the shooting and the ability to put the ball on the floor. That was unique.

One poster wrote how before Dirk ... international 6'10"+ face up bigs didn't exist. Detlef Schrempf, Rick Smiths were exectly that.
Now I know Dirk was 7' PF/C and Schrempf was 6'10" SF/PF, but they both played PFs for good parts of their career, and while Dirk was better player, Detlef was even more fluid - guard like player.
And Rik Smits was faceup great shooting C.

[NoStatsGuy]

Nah, not the extend of a curry or even lebron to a smaller extend.

they put up insane stats. but they dont "change the game". Just because we like their personality, and they are very likeable, doesnt mean they changed the game.

changing the game means, that you do something the league can adept to. There have been many centers before jokic, that played in the high post and distributed. now not everybody has the vision and skill that jokic has. but its not a completely new idea of playing the game. curry established what an acceptable jumpshot is in our modern era.

same goes for giannis. he is amazing and puts up sick stats. but what does he do that changes the game? he mostly overpowers his opponent, thats as old as the game itself.

KD with the pullthrough move for example actually changed the game. harden abusing defenders leading to rulechanges, stuff like this is actually changing the game in another way.

Jokic, Giannis and SGA are all amazing players. the best we got currently. but they are not changing the game at all imo. thats a phrase you dont just throw around. theres a handful of people since i watch the nba that changed the game.

[NO-KG-AI]

Curry for sure. How did Lebron change the game?

If you don't understand how LeBron changed the game as the face of the NBA the past 2 decades then you must be new to basketball.

I suggest Google LeBron James and his resume will speak on how he changed the game sir.

Ah got it. He's a big star so he must have changed the game. You yourself have no idea how he actually did it so you can't give me any examples and are just telling me to figure it out

LeBron changed the game by making it normal for stars to expect you to give them years to develop into title level #1 options, then you must mortgage away your entire future to trade for whatever friends they want, and the first time you falll short of expectations, you owe it to them to let them leave for greener pastures because they did so much for you.

[Black Jack]

KD's only doing what Dirk did first.

Dirk was more of a postup, turnaround guy to me. KD isn't really the same playing style, he's more of a faceup guy and floater outside. I actually don't like Wemby types imitating KD's game, it neutralizes size. KD is able to really catch and either shoot or dribble shake then shoot in a way that I never saw a guy that tall/long do before.

That said...If we're gonna go there, I never thought Dirk did too much offensively that Bird & MJ didn't already as a guy with 4 size (Bird) and with a lethal turnaround game (old Jordan). his size made it super effective though.

Dirk got the one legged fadeaway jumper from Bird for sure.

Young Dirk wasn't a post up guy

I remember him playing a much more traditional big man position, not floating on the perimeter facing the basket outside the 3 point line like Durant.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Dirk was more of a postup, turnaround guy to me. KD isn't really the same playing style, he's more of a faceup guy and floater outside. I actually don't like Wemby types imitating KD's game, it neutralizes size. KD is able to really catch and either shoot or dribble shake then shoot in a way that I never saw a guy that tall/long do before.

That said...If we're gonna go there, I never thought Dirk did too much offensively that Bird & MJ didn't already as a guy with 4 size (Bird) and with a lethal turnaround game (old Jordan). his size made it super effective though.

Dirk got the one legged fadeaway jumper from Bird for sure.

Young Dirk wasn't a post up guy

I remember him playing a much more traditional big man position, not floating on the perimeter facing the basket outside the 3 point line like Durant.

young Durant was a step further, but young Dirk was absolutely attacking big men off the dribble

Watch on YouTube

[Cavsfansince84]

I think changed the game is a weird type of phrase that keeps getting thrown around but means w/e someone wants it to mean. I think Steph(& and the Warriors) changed the game by actually winning a title in 2015. idk if LeBron changed it much. He probably had a hand in how guys like Harden and Luka have been given the keys to run things and be the center of it all. Harden had impact with his playing style of just 3's, foul baiting and drives but the game keeps evolving. Both Giannis and Jokic seem a bit too unique for any gms to be like 'o I need to find my own' because they're just too rare. Indy will have an impact on the league if they win it all this year, probably more than Giannis or Jokic did when they won titles.

[Black Jack]

Young Dirk wasn't a post up guy

I remember him playing a much more traditional big man position, not floating on the perimeter facing the basket outside the 3 point line like Durant.

young Durant was a step further, but young Dirk was absolutely attacking big men off the dribble

Watch on YouTube

I agree Dirk had a good faceup game but it wasn't as much his signature. Just my 2 cents, Durant is the one who inspired a lot of faceup outside floater 3s, fancy between the legs type stuff for guys like Wemby.

Dirk had more of a mix, him and Duncan were fairly similar although he was more of a faceup scorer.

[Rubios]

OP here. I worded it very poorly, my bad. English is my third language.
Reading this thread has been very, very interesting and enjoyable. You were just not answering my question because I didn't ask it properly = )

What I meant is if you think Jokic and/or Giannis represent/ed some paradigm shift, disruption, like the one we expect from Wemby i.e.
Something unique, unprecedented (yes, everything has his roots somewhere. You get it.)
As Wemby will not change the game either because... well, you'll not find a dozen of specimens like him.

I'm dissecting this both as fans and from the coaches standpoint.

As a fan:

I saw Rose and Russ, i.e., and they both had more top end speed than Giannis. But the sense of him covering half court in four strides made me think "when tf did this dude get there?", AND finishing with a supremely elite (and underrated) eurostep... I never saw something like that.

Regarding Jokic, I'm European so not profane to his fundamentals. But a 7 feet that's a shooting menace from everywhere, has absurd court mapping and passing to get the ball to a team mate anywhere (sometimes before they even get there)... but, specially, it's his playmaking style of touching more balls per game than no one ever has while keeping his usage% pretty low what strikes me different than anyone else.

Am I missing some precedents that makes them not so disruptive, or not disruptive at all?


As a coach:

I'm not saying you could stop, let's say, prime KD. But I believe the coach -allow me to oversimplify- could say "Ok, guys, so you have faced great shooters before, right? He's just better and taller so contest his shots will be even harder. Good luck."
The only specific change I'd considerate would be putting a maybe lesser but taller defender as his main guard.

I believe Giannis and Jokic present harder riddles to try to figure out and more need to specific adjustments for them.
Again, this doesn't have nothing to do with quality or capacity to actually stop them, but with uniqueness of his threads.

Do you agree?
Or Giannis is prime physical LeBron minus the playmaking? And Jokic... dunno, Sabonis but better?

Thks in advance!

[tsherkin]

LeBron changed the game by making it normal for stars to expect you to give them years to develop into title level #1 options, then you must mortgage away your entire future to trade for whatever friends they want, and the first time you falll short of expectations, you owe it to them to let them leave for greener pastures because they did so much for you.

You mean after Cleveland comprehensively failed to give him a roster with enough to get past 3-All-Star Boston and the highly-effective Orlando roster, and left him with scraps after 7 years? Then went to Miami, made 3 straight Finals and won repeat titles, and left in FA after?

C'mon, man.

I remember him playing a much more traditional big man position, not floating on the perimeter facing the basket outside the 3 point line like Durant.

From about 2008 onward, sure. Prior? Much less so.

[Black Jack]

LeBron changed the game by making it normal for stars to expect you to give them years to develop into title level #1 options, then you must mortgage away your entire future to trade for whatever friends they want, and the first time you falll short of expectations, you owe it to them to let them leave for greener pastures because they did so much for you.

You mean after Cleveland comprehensively failed to give him a roster with enough to get past 3-All-Star Boston and the highly-effective Orlando roster, and left him with scraps after 7 years? Then went to Miami, made 3 straight Finals and won repeat titles, and left in FA after?

C'mon, man.

I remember him playing a much more traditional big man position, not floating on the perimeter facing the basket outside the 3 point line like Durant.

From about 2008 onward, sure. Prior? Much less so.

Dirk's playing style didn't change the game for big men. Durant's did. Bottom line.

Does that hurt you?

[tsherkin]

Dirk's playing style didn't change the game for big men. Durant's did. Bottom line.

But that demonstrably isn't true. Dirk and KG were both instrumental in beginning to normalize shooting bigs in volume.

Durant was more of the next point on the graph than anything especially revolutionary in concept. Like, obviously KD was amazing, and he was particularly relevant to the more recent generation and stuff, but he was part of a fairly old movement in that regard.

[WarriorGM]

"Best player," "face of the league," "changed the game." Superlatives one wants to apply to favorite players. People see one player being given the attribute and then want it for their player. But not all qualify.

[CS707]

Can you enlight us what Duncan had said that made him similar to Jokic regarding the aspect I mentioned?

Stating Jokic is not about fancy dunks or new plays. How he only truly cares about basketball. And how he changed the game by having these attributes.

You literally described Tim Duncan. I can't wait to hear how Shai is changing the game next by how stoic and how much he loves his teammates next and how the league has never seen it.

You didn't understand my point then.
Jokic showed you can be one of the best basketball players ever without even liking the game. I still don't see how it is related to Duncan.
It's actually an inspiration to all the people in the world. He's shown you can be the absolute best at your job, even in a huge team sport, while openly valuing your real passions above it. He proves true greatness comes from mastering your craft, not from faking an all-consuming "love of the game."

The Jokic doesn’t really like the game thing is more myth than reality. He shows far too much emotion over the game for anyone to actually believe that. Let alone you don’t get as good as he is without having a passion for it.

[Jakay]

If SGA can go on a title tear he might be able to bring the mid range game back into fashion. Changing how people play is "changing the game" to me. It's pretty rare something like hack-a-shaq or no dunking from the FT line changes come along.

Harden is a great call out. That side step three was his move, and now lots of players do it. Steph popularizing threes for sure. I think without Jokic guys like Senguin wouldn't get a chance to playmake like they do. I think Giannis shifted the way defence is played. The infamous wall in the Raptors run was significant.

Lebron maybe didn't change the "game" so much as how teams are put together, and big contracts for older players suddenly making some sense.

It all depends on where you draw the line of "changing the game".

Draymond made small-ball a common thing on that note. The lineup of death was really the v1 smallball end-of-game lineup.

PJ Tucker playing C for like a decade at 5'7", no need for 7 footers after Shaq retired.

[NO-KG-AI]

LeBron changed the game by making it normal for stars to expect you to give them years to develop into title level #1 options, then you must mortgage away your entire future to trade for whatever friends they want, and the first time you falll short of expectations, you owe it to them to let them leave for greener pastures because they did so much for you.

You mean after Cleveland comprehensively failed to give him a roster with enough to get past 3-All-Star Boston and the highly-effective Orlando roster, and left him with scraps after 7 years? Then went to Miami, made 3 straight Finals and won repeat titles, and left in FA after?

C'mon, man.

I remember him playing a much more traditional big man position, not floating on the perimeter facing the basket outside the 3 point line like Durant.

From about 2008 onward, sure. Prior? Much less so.

I don’t fault LeBron for leaving Cleveland. He gave them time to build, and every ounce on the floor.

It was everything after. Basically forcing the hand of the front offices to make all the impatient panic moves he wanted them to make, and then dippig out when the cupboard looks bare.

[tsherkin]

I don’t fault LeBron for leaving Cleveland. He gave them time to build, and every ounce on the floor.

It was everything after. Basically forcing the hand of the front offices to make all the impatient panic moves he wanted them to make, and then dippig out when the cupboard looks bare.

They wanted to win. He wanted to win. He wasn't there to hold hands and wait, he'd done that in Cleveland the first time around.

[yannisk]

I don't know about changing the game but Jokic will encourage many nonathletic guys that there is hope for a professional career based on bbiq and skill.

Giannis is another big guy with guard skills. Usually that means big guys who can shoot but in Giannis case is a 6''11 player that can handle the ball, euro step play as a secondary playmaker sometimes even as a pg. I don't think it is easy to replicate some of the things he does though since not many people are graced with his athleticism and balance.

[tsherkin]

I don't know about changing the game but Jokic will encourage many nonathletic guys that there is hope for a professional career based on bbiq and skill.

Giannis is another big guy with guard skills. Usually that means big guys who can shoot but in Giannis case is a 6''11 player that can handle the ball, euro step play as a secondary playmaker sometimes even as a pg. I don't think it is easy to replicate some of the things he does though since not many people are graced with his athleticism and balance.

Yeah but the average fan doesn't need to be able to do what he does. They couldn't do what Jordan did, right? They can't shoot like Steph.

Giannis is another next-step player along the "bigs with skills" chain, just like Joker, at least. Even behind his athleticism. And we'll see what happens as he keeps developing that pull-up at the FT line. Maybe it'll help his FT shooting, heh.

[Alatan]

I dont get the thinking of people in here. Jokic didnt change the game because centers that pass exited before but Steph "changed" the game by shooting threes, like there was no three point line before him... And then there are people seriously mentioning LBJ and Durant. Neither of them has introduced anything new to the game. LBJ is a heliocentric point forward, something that existed since forever. He was just much better at it that the rest. Durant is a long wing scorer. There were many before him. He is just a tad better than most.

Jokic actually runs Denvers offense as would a guard. I have never seen something like that before Jokic. And after him some teams tried to do it with guys like Sabonis and Sengun. Heck, there was even a time when Detroit tried to replicate what Jokic does with Drummond. It was hilarious.
Draymond Green does some similar stuff in GSW offense but he is more of a passing hub that benefits from other players gravity than a guy that shifts the defense on his own and then creates opportunities.

Jokic does this by being 1) a center that shoots threes witch forces the opposing center to step out of the paint, 2) by being a threat to score from anywhere on the floor witch ofthen attracts multiple defenders and 3) by being a big body that can both set a pick or slip to the paint. The combination of these abilities creates space witch in witch he can utilize his incredible bbiq, vision and passing ability.
Teams literally triple team him off ball.

Sure other players are not as talented but Jokic unlocked the point center position to stretch bigs that have some PG skills.