Can we admit the obvious yet? Jokic is the greatest offensive player ever

[Duke4life831]

Why hasn’t he had elite playoff offensive results?

This is disappointing from you OP. Spend all day defending LeBron and then just give up and impromptu admit Jokic is better offensively because he puts up some nice box score numbers? What happened to your passion?

nah put some effort into ur argument or get out.

name a playoff series he was favored in and should have won but didn't. then compare the amount of series he's lost as a favorite and compare that to the amount of times other all time greats have lost as favorites. is he average, worse, or better than others. i dont wanna spoil it the answer for u

My argument is exceptionally simple:

The offensive GOAT needs to have lead more than one elite offensive playoff run by age 30. Jokic box score stats while impressive have not produced elite playoff offensive results for his team EVEN when only filtering for his on-court offensive rating.

The offensive GOAT is a player so unstoppable that his team offense is unstoppable in a playoff setting. Why do I argue this way? Because the REAL offensive GOATs have proven this over and over again.

Steph, LeBron, Jordan, Magic, Bird all had multiple and counting under their belts by this age.

Steph: only won rings with HOFers. KD, Green
LeBron: only has won rings with HOFers. Wade, Kyrie, AD
Jordan: only won rings with HOFers. Pippen, and then Rodman
Magic: only won rings with HOFers. Kareem, Cooper, Worthy
Bird: only won rings with HOFers. McHale and Parish

If anything the list of guys you just gave, just should reinforce Jokic’s offensive greatness. He got a ring without having a HOF teammate.

[Peregrine01]

I dub Jokic the great white hope.

Do you have anything useful to add?

I acknowledge that you've posted. Good job.

Thinking race is behind everything is a sure fire way to get no where in life.

[Black star]

All time nba OBPM leaders

Jokic 7.43
Jordan 7.17
James 6.86
Luka 6.51
Curry 6.24

Jokic certainly has a case for the greatest all time offensive player. Surprised he leads Jordan in this category.

Jokic has the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th highest BPMs of all time with Lebron sandwiched in at 3rd and Jordan not showing up until 6th which I thought was odd. This is one of the obvious cases of a stat not working as intended once you look into how its calculated. Jokic gets a 2x multiplier on his assists in the stat simply for being a center. It's an outdated methodology that Jokic is uniquely capable of exploiting given what an exceptional playmaker he is.

Similarly, Westbrook broke the original BPM and was topping the all time lists during his prime due to a similar issue with their methodology but in his case it was guard rebounds instead of center assists. They eventually had to correct that in BPM 2.0 and BPM 3.0 will most likely correct this center assist exploit.

Long story short you should take most if not all of his box score based advanced stats with a grain of salt.

[Petergrifindor]

Nah, Caruso is his daddy.

[Statlanta]

I’ve been making this argument for years.

He’s literally the only guy that you can make an argument that he just doesn’t have a flaw on offense, he’s practically elite at every aspect on offense.

Top 5 facilitator of all time.
Best back to the basket/low post game of his generation
Elite mid range game
Been a 38% 3pt shooter since he’s entered his prime and 39% career in the playoffs
He’s elite at creating his own shot or others
He’s also elite when it comes to high volume scoring while being efficient. He’s led the league in TS% before and is in the top practical 5-10 every year and the majority of the guys in the top 10 are low volume centers.

Where is the flaw? Put him in any spot on the court and in any situation, he’s elite

I like Jokic but he has flaws. He is not a great dribbler, he is for his size but he's not using his dribble to set up the offense. He also does not give you any value as a vertical option. OKC/Caruso took away all his lateral options because they are so fast and he couldn't punish them by being a lob threat.

He might be NBA Jesus but even he was a person with faults.

[Duke4life831]

I’ve been making this argument for years.

He’s literally the only guy that you can make an argument that he just doesn’t have a flaw on offense, he’s practically elite at every aspect on offense.

Top 5 facilitator of all time.
Best back to the basket/low post game of his generation
Elite mid range game
Been a 38% 3pt shooter since he’s entered his prime and 39% career in the playoffs
He’s elite at creating his own shot or others
He’s also elite when it comes to high volume scoring while being efficient. He’s led the league in TS% before and is in the top practical 5-10 every year and the majority of the guys in the top 10 are low volume centers.

Where is the flaw? Put him in any spot on the court and in any situation, he’s elite

I like Jokic but he has flaws. He is not a great dribbler, he is for his size but he's not using his dribble to set up the offense. He also does not give you any value as a vertical option. OKC/Caruso took away all his lateral options because they are so fast and he couldn't punish them by being a lob threat.

He might be NBA Jesus but even he was a person with faults.

But you’re talking more of styles now. Ya he’s not going to cross you over. He’ll just back you down though. It’s a different style, but still the same thing is happening, he’s using his handle to get where he wants. If you put a smaller person on him 1 on 1 out on the perimeter. Jokic just backs him down until he scores or they send help.

Ya he’s definitely not a lob threat. But he has elite hands and touch. So for example prime Shaq (LA years), he was a 74.7% finisher around the rim (3ft and in).

Prime Jokic (2019 on, made his first AS game that year). He’s a 74.4% finisher at the rim.

So yea he’s not an alley oop vertical threat, but he’s still an elite threat to just throw it to him down low (pass doesn’t even need to really be accurate with how good his hands are). And he’s essentially unguardable.

[Peregrine01]

I think he fills the stat sheet like no other, but I think prime LeBron is clearly superior offensively. He led better playoff offenses and he can also just do more offensively, mainly in terms of his ball handling and passing on the move. His slashing and ability to generate gravity with the ball in his hands from the perimeter give him more options as an offensive weapon than Jokic. Jokic especially in the playoffs does rely on his guards to take and make a lot of tough shots late in the clock because as a center, he’s a lot more limited in terms of creating something from the perimeter. Not his fault, but that’s clearly a big advantage that LeBron has over him. And it’s why I think LeBron led historically better playoff offenses on a consistent basis.

I agree that offensive GOAT wings will always have an advantage over the offensive GOAT bigs like Shaq, Kareem and Jokic because they control more of the action with their ball-handling.

I don’t think playoff rORTG is all that great a barometer for offense though. For one, everyone’s playing a different opponent so what is their ORTG even measured against? It’s comparing apples to oranges. Those great Lebron-led playoff ORTGs happened when the Cavs were smacking weak teams in the East. But when Lebron really hit his peak with Miami, those playoff rORTGs were comparatively weak cause he played against tougher defenses.

Second, every series takes on a different life of its own. Is Denver a much better playoff defense because their playoff DRTGs are way better than what their regular season DRTGs indicate? Or is it because the playoffs allow more physicality and the series that they play in have even more physicality? Probably a bit of both but simply looking at playoff ORTG/DRTG misses all the context that leads to these elegant single-number metrics.

[EmpireFalls]

nah put some effort into ur argument or get out.

name a playoff series he was favored in and should have won but didn't. then compare the amount of series he's lost as a favorite and compare that to the amount of times other all time greats have lost as favorites. is he average, worse, or better than others. i dont wanna spoil it the answer for u

My argument is exceptionally simple:

The offensive GOAT needs to have lead more than one elite offensive playoff run by age 30. Jokic box score stats while impressive have not produced elite playoff offensive results for his team EVEN when only filtering for his on-court offensive rating.

The offensive GOAT is a player so unstoppable that his team offense is unstoppable in a playoff setting. Why do I argue this way? Because the REAL offensive GOATs have proven this over and over again.

Steph, LeBron, Jordan, Magic, Bird all had multiple and counting under their belts by this age.

Steph: only won rings with HOFers. KD, Green
LeBron: only has won rings with HOFers. Wade, Kyrie, AD
Jordan: only won rings with HOFers. Pippen, and then Rodman
Magic: only won rings with HOFers. Kareem, Cooper, Worthy
Bird: only won rings with HOFers. McHale and Parish

If anything the list of guys you just gave, just should reinforce Jokic’s offensive greatness. He got a ring without having a HOF teammate.

All I think that proves is GOAT potential. If he gives us 6 years of offensive dominance I’m happy to give it to him. Until then I’m going to stick with the guys who have proven it beyond doubt

[Mephariel]

I’ve been making this argument for years.

He’s literally the only guy that you can make an argument that he just doesn’t have a flaw on offense, he’s practically elite at every aspect on offense.

Top 5 facilitator of all time.
Best back to the basket/low post game of his generation
Elite mid range game
Been a 38% 3pt shooter since he’s entered his prime and 39% career in the playoffs
He’s elite at creating his own shot or others
He’s also elite when it comes to high volume scoring while being efficient. He’s led the league in TS% before and is in the top practical 5-10 every year and the majority of the guys in the top 10 are low volume centers.

Where is the flaw? Put him in any spot on the court and in any situation, he’s elite

I like Jokic but he has flaws. He is not a great dribbler, he is for his size but he's not using his dribble to set up the offense. He also does not give you any value as a vertical option. OKC/Caruso took away all his lateral options because they are so fast and he couldn't punish them by being a lob threat.

He might be NBA Jesus but even he was a person with faults.

But you’re talking more of styles now. Ya he’s not going to cross you over. He’ll just back you down though. It’s a different style, but still the same thing is happening, he’s using his handle to get where he wants. If you put a smaller person on him 1 on 1 out on the perimeter. Jokic just backs him down until he scores or they send help.

Ya he’s definitely not a lob threat. But he has elite hands and touch. So for example prime Shaq (LA years), he was a 74.7% finisher around the rim (3ft and in).

Prime Jokic (2019 on, made his first AS game that year). He’s a 74.4% finisher at the rim.

So yea he’s not an alley oop vertical threat, but he’s still an elite threat to just throw it to him down low (pass doesn’t even need to really be accurate with how good his hands are). And he’s essentially unguardable.

To me, this is not the problem. Jokic has plenty of elite offensive skills. My issue is more the competition if we are talking about all time. Jokic play in an era where there are no rival centers. Remember what Hakeem did to Robinson in the playoffs? The only center in this era that could demoralize him and punish him was Embiid and Embiid barely plays. I feel like Jokic can do anything he wants because he is barely challenged physically on the other end. When was the last time you saw a center like Shaq or Hakeem physically taking it to him? He gets challenged by guards more than centers.

I think in the 90s, he would still put up amazing numbers like 25 points, 10 rebounds, and 5 assists. But I don't think we would be talking about him being the greatest offensive player over Jordan.

Jokic, imo, is the greatest offensive player in this era though. It is either him, Curry, or Lebron.

[MavsDirk41]

I personally think Jokic would rather deal with a few lumbering 7 footers and being able to chill in the paint 90% of the game because of the lack of spacing instead of trying to guard in all the space in the modern NBA

If you think those guys he mentioned are lumbering 7 footers you didnt watch them play…unless you forgot the green font?

Lumbering may have been disrespectful, but I still hold to my overall point that being a center is harder in 2025 than it was in 1995. There may be less brutes to match up against, but trying to guard in all the space of the modern game, especially against those dynamic deep threat shooting guards for a big, heavy center is way more taxing over a 82 game season + playoffs.

Yea thats true but i think he would definitely struggle trying to defend Shaq, Ewing, Dream, Duncan, and Robinson who are either bigger/stronger or more skilled/athlethic.

[MavsDirk41]

All time nba OBPM leaders

Jokic 7.43
Jordan 7.17
James 6.86
Luka 6.51
Curry 6.24

Jokic certainly has a case for the greatest all time offensive player. Surprised he leads Jordan in this category.

I will say this as a pro MJ way to view this.

MJ vs his peers

MJ: 7.17
Magic: 5.93
Barkley: 5.36
Bird: 5.12

Now granted this is just one stat. But I think it’s safe to say it’s not always apples to apples when trying to compare different generations.

Going with this stat, I think you can make the argument that no one was a better offensive player vs his era and peers than MJ.

I think Bird was more skilled in that he had absolutely no weaknesses offensively but Jordan was more dominant offensively. And Jordan obviously had to carry a bigger load as Bird played with more offensive talent.

[Duke4life831]

I like Jokic but he has flaws. He is not a great dribbler, he is for his size but he's not using his dribble to set up the offense. He also does not give you any value as a vertical option. OKC/Caruso took away all his lateral options because they are so fast and he couldn't punish them by being a lob threat.

He might be NBA Jesus but even he was a person with faults.

But you’re talking more of styles now. Ya he’s not going to cross you over. He’ll just back you down though. It’s a different style, but still the same thing is happening, he’s using his handle to get where he wants. If you put a smaller person on him 1 on 1 out on the perimeter. Jokic just backs him down until he scores or they send help.

Ya he’s definitely not a lob threat. But he has elite hands and touch. So for example prime Shaq (LA years), he was a 74.7% finisher around the rim (3ft and in).

Prime Jokic (2019 on, made his first AS game that year). He’s a 74.4% finisher at the rim.

So yea he’s not an alley oop vertical threat, but he’s still an elite threat to just throw it to him down low (pass doesn’t even need to really be accurate with how good his hands are). And he’s essentially unguardable.

To me, this is not the problem. Jokic has plenty of elite offensive skills. My issue is more the competition if we are talking about all time. Jokic play in an era where there are no rival centers. Remember what Hakeem did to Robinson in the playoffs? The only center in this era that could demoralize him and punish him was Embiid and Embiid barely plays. I feel like Jokic can do anything he wants because he is barely challenged physically on the other end. When was the last time you saw a center like Shaq or Hakeem physically taking it to him? He gets challenged by guards more than centers.

I think in the 90s, he would still put up amazing numbers like 25 points, 10 rebounds, and 5 assists. But I don't think we would be talking about him being the greatest offensive player over Jordan.

Jokic, imo, is the greatest offensive player in this era though. It is either him, Curry, or Lebron.

I have no disagreement with this argument. Earlier in this thread someone brought up career OBPM. And even with Jokic being #1, I said if anything that stat is a great argument for MJ. Because the gap between MJ vs the rest of his peers was much more significant than Jokic’s gap vs his peers.

If anything I think the best debates for this is to cut it up to different eras.

[Cubbies2120]

Jokic could average 40PPG if he shot more, albeit on lower efficiency...probably "only" 55% FG shooting

[Duke4life831]

All time nba OBPM leaders

Jokic 7.43
Jordan 7.17
James 6.86
Luka 6.51
Curry 6.24

Jokic certainly has a case for the greatest all time offensive player. Surprised he leads Jordan in this category.

I will say this as a pro MJ way to view this.

MJ vs his peers

MJ: 7.17
Magic: 5.93
Barkley: 5.36
Bird: 5.12

Now granted this is just one stat. But I think it’s safe to say it’s not always apples to apples when trying to compare different generations.

Going with this stat, I think you can make the argument that no one was a better offensive player vs his era and peers than MJ.

I think Bird was more skilled in that he had absolutely no weaknesses offensively but Jordan was more dominant offensively. And Jordan obviously had to carry a bigger load as Bird played with more offensive talent.

Ya that’s a good debate to have. Because I do agree I think Bird checked off more boxes. But the level of dominance by MJ can’t be overlooked either.

It would kind of like having a Jokic vs Shaq debate. Jokic the far more versatile player on offense. But prime Shaq was just so damn dominant. And he did that against some elite big men defenders. What would you prefer to have, the ultimate versatility guy, or just the sheer dominant guy.

I personally would go Jokic. But if someone says Shaq, I don’t have much of an argument against it. I grew up watching prime Shaq, there was no such thing as even slowing him down when he was fully checked in.

[Ssj16]

Again, the greatest offensive players of all time have made Swiss cheese of elite playoff defenses multiple times.

Jokic to this point of his career has not.

Why is this so controversial to all of you? Do you know who Michael Jordan is? Steph Curry? LeBron James? Magic Johnson? Do you know what these guys proved in the postseason? Jokic has not proved it to their level yet in the playoffs.

All those guys had First-Ballot Hall of Famers as their running mates… Magic played with the 3rd greatest player of all time in Kareem for a decade, not to mention James Worthy. Mike had Scottie. Steph had prime KD and prime Klay. Lebron had Kyrie, D-Wade, Bosh, and Kevin Love. Jokic has never even had a teammate make a single All-Star team once in his career lol. The one time one of his teammates played like one, he won a ring. He likely ring last year too if any of his teammates could hit the open 3's that he got them. I'm not going to claim Jokic as the offensive GOAT quite yet, but he's absolutely in the conversation.

This also coincided with him being in the best shape of his life and running through a historically weak gauntlet. Just saying there were more factors than Jamal Murray that year.

I think people have been way too hard on Jokic's teammates. He's played with a pretty exceptional starting 5 since they got Gordon. Immediately after the 2023 title they were considered the best starting 5 in basketball, and then they suddenly turned into bums. A lot of Jokic stans undersell the starting 5 and a lot of Jokic haters fail to acknowledge the lack of Nuggets' depth. The reality is Jokic doesn't need an exceptional offensive co-star and the most important defensive position is occupied by himself, so there isn't a ton of room on his teams for All-NBA impact from others. What he needs is two-way talent, organization, and intensity and for the most part he's had that in his prime. The Nuggets are one of the most surgical offensive teams I've ever watched, and surely most of that is Jokic but the rest of the team is also incredibly organized. I don't just credit Curry for the other Warriors being so good plug-and-play around him -- I credit Kerr and the Warriors org.

I'd like to also explain why EmpireFalls' argument might be right about Jokic, for three reasons:
1. He's not really an offensive risk-taker. He's hyper-efficient and that lowers raw offensive ceiling in favor of slow, tactical basketball. The other Nuggets then fight this war of attrition on defense while he and Murray try to generate mostly 2 pointers in the halfcourt.
2. He's not a guard so he can't be coming off screens and flinging it. Even though he's skilled, mobile and agile relative to his position, there are still very obvious physical limitations (which also serve as strengths in other ways).
3. He doesn't get to the line enough. This goes back to his body and position imo. Nobody is strong enough to make him look bothered, and he isn't fast enough to get players out of position the way guards can. Because he beats you with size and skill over the top, team send doubles or shade and that's when he hits a shooter, and that's when everybody blames the shooter for missing.

tldr He might be the most efficient offensive player ever but he can't hit those nuclear peaks like Steph could. His game will be appreciated more with the context of longevity even if he never wins another title.

You lost me when you mention not being able to reach the nuclear peaks as Curry. The same player who only won finals MVP one out of 4 times.

[dk1115]

Do you have anything useful to add?

I acknowledge that you've posted. Good job.

Thinking race is behind everything is a sure fire way to get no where in life.

Taking a basketball forum as a place for serious discussion only probably leads the same way.

[MrBigShot]

I like Jokic but he has flaws. He is not a great dribbler, he is for his size but he's not using his dribble to set up the offense. He also does not give you any value as a vertical option. OKC/Caruso took away all his lateral options because they are so fast and he couldn't punish them by being a lob threat.

He might be NBA Jesus but even he was a person with faults.

But you’re talking more of styles now. Ya he’s not going to cross you over. He’ll just back you down though. It’s a different style, but still the same thing is happening, he’s using his handle to get where he wants. If you put a smaller person on him 1 on 1 out on the perimeter. Jokic just backs him down until he scores or they send help.

Ya he’s definitely not a lob threat. But he has elite hands and touch. So for example prime Shaq (LA years), he was a 74.7% finisher around the rim (3ft and in).

Prime Jokic (2019 on, made his first AS game that year). He’s a 74.4% finisher at the rim.

So yea he’s not an alley oop vertical threat, but he’s still an elite threat to just throw it to him down low (pass doesn’t even need to really be accurate with how good his hands are). And he’s essentially unguardable.

To me, this is not the problem. Jokic has plenty of elite offensive skills. My issue is more the competition if we are talking about all time. Jokic play in an era where there are no rival centers. Remember what Hakeem did to Robinson in the playoffs? The only center in this era that could demoralize him and punish him was Embiid and Embiid barely plays. I feel like Jokic can do anything he wants because he is barely challenged physically on the other end. When was the last time you saw a center like Shaq or Hakeem physically taking it to him? He gets challenged by guards more than centers.

I think in the 90s, he would still put up amazing numbers like 25 points, 10 rebounds, and 5 assists. But I don't think we would be talking about him being the greatest offensive player over Jordan.

Jokic, imo, is the greatest offensive player in this era though. It is either him, Curry, or Lebron.

Jokic would have an absolute field day in the 90s. He makes it look so effortless and his touch is so incredible that that people take for granted how difficult he is to guard.

[FarBeyondDriven]

stats in this era are inflated. Nobody has been more dominant than Wilt and MJ imho

[drone3]

Jokic isn't even trying. He has at least 3 more levels to his game

[Haldi]

My argument is exceptionally simple:

The offensive GOAT needs to have lead more than one elite offensive playoff run by age 30. Jokic box score stats while impressive have not produced elite playoff offensive results for his team EVEN when only filtering for his on-court offensive rating.

The offensive GOAT is a player so unstoppable that his team offense is unstoppable in a playoff setting. Why do I argue this way? Because the REAL offensive GOATs have proven this over and over again.

Steph, LeBron, Jordan, Magic, Bird all had multiple and counting under their belts by this age.

Steph: only won rings with HOFers. KD, Green
LeBron: only has won rings with HOFers. Wade, Kyrie, AD
Jordan: only won rings with HOFers. Pippen, and then Rodman
Magic: only won rings with HOFers. Kareem, Cooper, Worthy
Bird: only won rings with HOFers. McHale and Parish

If anything the list of guys you just gave, just should reinforce Jokic’s offensive greatness. He got a ring without having a HOF teammate.

All I think that proves is GOAT potential. If he gives us 6 years of offensive dominance I’m happy to give it to him. Until then I’m going to stick with the guys who have proven it beyond doubt

Jokic is showing why this “rangz” argument is so dumb. I honestly hope he keeps up this play for another like 6-7 years and keeps losing in 2nd rounds, due the TEAM he’s on. Maybe, just maybe, people will actually start understanding a few things about this sport.

All of your “rangz” leaders in your precious top tens, change their career paths from day one to lesser teams and they win exactly ZERO rangz lol