Kevin Durant

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Post#81 » by tsherkin » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:18 am

AbdicatedReign wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I suppose that is where we differ. I believe Durant qualifies as a physical freak in that, his combination of length, coordination and quickness gives him a sufficient level of separation to dominate his competition. We've seen flashes this season, and it's far from a sure thing, but once he matures physically and understands how to use his body to its full advantage, the separation will become a constant. Or maybe I'm seeing things. Time will tell.


He doesn't look appreciably different physically from a lot of guys in the league; again, it's his skills that put separation between him and others of similar body types and if he becomes a perennial All-Star, they will be the reason, not his physical traits.
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Post#82 » by KF10 » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:19 am

Yeah, Durant's potential is great. But he really needs to work on his D. Eh, his defense will come eventually.
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Post#83 » by tsherkin » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:05 am

kingsfan10 wrote:Yeah, Durant's potential is great. But he really needs to work on his D. Eh, his defense will come eventually.


Defense is maybe the thing I'm worried LEAST about.

Everything about Durant speaks of good work ethic and he's got the length and lateral mobility to not suck as a defender at the 3 and against face-up 4s. As long as he doesn't remain a 2, he'll be fine defensively.
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Post#84 » by SadKingsFan » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:35 am

Does anyone have any idea why PJ put him at the two in the first place? And even if they want him to play that position shouldnt they not force him to guard other players at that same position? He is will continue to get killed on that end of the floor if they go on with that that strategy.
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Post#85 » by KF10 » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:38 am

tsherkin wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Defense is maybe the thing I'm worried LEAST about.

Everything about Durant speaks of good work ethic and he's got the length and lateral mobility to not suck as a defender at the 3 and against face-up 4s. As long as he doesn't remain a 2, he'll be fine defensively.


Yeah, I wasnt really alluding to Durant being a bad defender but yeah given his age and work ethic he is going to be good in both sides of the court. But if he is going to be at the 2 spot...He is going to get burned badly...When the Kings plays the Sonics, Martin kills Durant...
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Post#86 » by AbdicatedReign » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:51 am

tsherkin wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Defense is maybe the thing I'm worried LEAST about.

Everything about Durant speaks of good work ethic and he's got the length and lateral mobility to not suck as a defender at the 3 and against face-up 4s. As long as he doesn't remain a 2, he'll be fine defensively.


At least we agree there. I'm baffled by the opinion that he is/will be a horrible defender.

tsherkin wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

He doesn't look appreciably different physically from a lot of guys in the league; again, it's his skills that put separation between him and others of similar body types and if he becomes a perennial All-Star, they will be the reason, not his physical traits.


I can't argue with that. Though I will maintain that there is a point where the line between athleticism and skill becomes hard to delineate, because a player builds their primary skills from the foundation of their athletic gifts. Iverson's crossover is part skill, part outstanding physical quickness. Kobe's jumpshot is part skill, part ability to elevate and exquisite body control. Likewise, Durant's handling ability, is part skill and part quickness. His release is part skill part length and quickness. I believe that his skill, combined in proper ways with the gifts that he does have, will be enough to separate him physically from most matchups.

When Durant came out of Texas, the most common comparison for his basement that I heard was Sonic-at-the-time, Rashard Lewis. Lewis is a good assessment of his baseline potential because Rashard is, essentially, a skill player whose athleticism is right at league average. Rashard's advanced skill can be neutralized (to a sufficient degree that he will never be an elite scorer) by a defender's athletic advantage. We Sonic fans saw it many times. He lacks the physical separation from his peers needed to consistently score at an elite clip. The difference between Durant and Lewis, I feel, and why I think Durant can reach elite status, is that Durant possesses enough physical tools to not have his skill neutralized by superior athleticism. So, even if Durant's athleticism isn't "freakish" on it's own, in comparison to the type of player that term usually applies to (the LeBrons of the world), it is "freakish" in the sense that it allows him to execute his advanced skill level without sufficient pressure from his defender to suppress him below the threshold of elite status.
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Post#87 » by Jemini80 » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:25 am

apparently 2k sports thinks Durant is going to become the greatest defender ever. In my association mode, he won DPOY for 8 straight years.
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Post#88 » by wilt » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:28 am

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Post#89 » by DoctorEvil » Tue Apr 1, 2008 12:46 am

Kevin MartinFan wrote:Does anyone have any idea why PJ put him at the two in the first place? And even if they want him to play that position shouldnt they not force him to guard other players at that same position? He is will continue to get killed on that end of the floor if they go on with that that strategy.


Bennett's Plan is to lose without looking like they're tanking. He wants to alienate the Seattle fans as much as possble so they will let the team go without a fight, all the while building up high draft picks so the team will be loaded when they become the Cowpies or Hijackers (or whatever the name will be in OKC). That's why guys play out of position, they play the wrong defense, traded away "good-now" players, and shut guys like Wilcox down with his hurt pinkie.
Great plan and only the Seattle fans suffer.
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Post#90 » by tsherkin » Tue Apr 1, 2008 4:11 am

Kevin MartinFan wrote:Does anyone have any idea why PJ put him at the two in the first place? And even if they want him to play that position shouldnt they not force him to guard other players at that same position? He is will continue to get killed on that end of the floor if they go on with that that strategy.


It's possible that they're worried about his body and don't want him going up against the more physical SF position too early; they have fewer injury concerns this way.

AbdicatedReign wrote:I can't argue with that. Though I will maintain that there is a point where the line between athleticism and skill becomes hard to delineate, because a player builds their primary skills from the foundation of their athletic gifts.


That's a decent point but Kobe still needs to hit the jumper and Iverson's crossover is a combination of speed and cheating more often than not, so it's primarily athleticism and abuse of the rules in combination with vicious manipulation of refs giving him star calls. Less with the palming and carrying the last 4 or 5 years, though, but when he was a younger guy? Damn, I got sick of that crap. It was like watching the Entertainer's Classic, not even remotely legal.

Likewise, Durant's handling ability, is part skill and part quickness. His release is part skill part length and quickness. I believe that his skill, combined in proper ways with the gifts that he does have, will be enough to separate him physically from most matchups.


Eh, height has its advantages in certain matchups but it is only so valuable. Basketball is a vertical game but until Durant gets big enough to consistently post up with good results (even if it's against smaller 3s and 2s instead of 4s), then his height is only valuable in getting him jumpers.

The thing that has made him so effective THIS month is that he's taking fewer long jumpers, driving more and he's hitting his pull-up J a lot more than he was before. He's looked very good lately, though his percentages are going to eventually even out. The style of ball he's been playing lately has been very encouraging for the basic projection of him as a 22-24 ppg scorer on his career.

is that Durant possesses enough physical tools to not have his skill neutralized by superior athleticism.


I disagree; I think the first difference is that Durant has a handle that Rashard never did; Lewis is indeed athletically average but he can post, he's just a faerie and doesn't do it often enough. His problem is that he never had a really great command on the ball and wasn't wonderful at using the triple-threat and a host of fakes to work his man. He had a very linear and limited offensive repertoire and still does.

So, even if Durant's athleticism isn't "freakish" on it's own, in comparison to the type of player that term usually applies to (the LeBrons of the world), it is "freakish" in the sense that it allows him to execute his advanced skill level without sufficient pressure from his defender to suppress him below the threshold of elite status.


No, that's not an accurate usage of the term. "Above average" does not equate to "freakish," that's just bunk.

He's certainly got more athleticism than for which he was credited after the Combine results came through but he's by no means freakish. He's very skilled, that's the difference.

Because he did comparatively little of it at Texas, few people knew about his handles; they simply were not consistently on display because he posted a lot against smaller guys and his length was sufficient to get him shots in traffic that he can't take now. Also, he was hitting a lot of threes but he can't do that at NBA ranges (yet).

But that handle has been his saving grace at the NBA level because it allows him to exploit leg length; once he gets a step on a smaller defender, it's over because he's like a half-dozen feet or more behind them. That's an advantage brought on by height but also because he can put a defender off-balance with a dribble move in order to get that step and that's been the most surprising (and wonderfully so) part of his game.

But that's not freakish anything. He's not freakish because there are MANY guys with comparable physical traits and freakish implies a deviation from the normal distribution. It is clearly his skill level that separates him from someone like Tayshaun Prince or Luol Deng offensively.

Hell, Wade is more "freakish" than Durant and he had a comparatively weak vertical at his combine showing and wasn't very tall. He's 6'5 but he's got 6'11 arms and he's very aggressive. Amare? His wingspan is a hair under 7'2 and his vert isn't as impressive as you'd think (still excellent of course but not like Josh Smith or Rudy Gay excellent) but he's aggressive as Hell and very strong. He can absorb contact and finish in ways Durant cannot. He's closer to a freak athlete because he has a lot more leaping power than Durant and he's got hella quick feet. Same deal with Wade, that first step is nasty, even if his lift is primarily buoyed by massive arm length. 'Melo? Not the best leaper in the league but a nasty first step and a very muscular frame, very mature for his age (ala Lebron).

Durant? He's not really stunningly far from average in lateral/end-to-end quickness or leaping ability, he doesn't have a really great frame (narrow shoulders, comparatively low mass, very gangly) but he's got decent height, good coordination and excellent wingspan. He's also not a stiff athletically, he can move around very well for his size, just not so well as to label him a "freak athlete."

That term should not be thrown around lightly because it is designed to refer to the best athletes, athletes mind, in the league. Durant is CLEARLY not one of the best athletes in the league even if his athletic package is quite viable and suited to basketball.

He doesn't compare to Josh Smith, Gerald Wallace, Lebron James, Carmelo Anthony, JR Smith, Baron Davis, Tracy McGrady (a young T-Mac, anyway), Corey Maggette, Kobe Bryant, Rudy Gay, Mike Conley, Dwyane Wade, Shawn Marion, Desmond Mason, Vince Carter, Chris Paul, Nate Robinson, Dwight Howard, Andre Iguodala, Chris Bosh or Gilbert Arenas.

These guys are all more athletic than Durant and there are probably some guys escaping my memory. You could even argue Jordan Farmar on account of his massive vertical leap, though I think given his relatively average lateral quickness, he wouldn't fit the "freak" definition. The point, however, is that he has a singularly outstanding physical trait and Durant possesses no such traits.
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Post#91 » by OzThunder » Tue Apr 1, 2008 9:38 am

Jemini80 wrote:apparently 2k sports thinks Durant is going to become the greatest defender ever. In my association mode, he won DPOY for 8 straight years.


book it :lol:

but on the point of playing him at the 2, i think this is legit. I really think PJ thinks kevin can spend the rest (if not the younger years) of his career at the 2. He's already said that he's staying there for next season.

I mean at the moment he's almost playing position-less on offense. It's like we either run the offense through him or he stands in the corner waiting for the ball to come to him...i don't see how that will change playing at the 2 or 3. Also, usually the best defender takes him so it's not like he's playing shorter opponents or anything, he'll have the same defender if he moves to the 3 (in the majority of cases i guess) as he demands the teams best defender.

So i don't really see the difference between him playing the 2 or 3, unless another 2 or 3 comes in (mayo, beasley, green improves) that is capable of demanding another key defender. It's like LeBron, you can start him at PG if you want and make him guard a center, but he's still gonna do all the same things on offense that he does now.
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Post#92 » by tsherkin » Tue Apr 1, 2008 2:14 pm

seattlefan35 wrote:I mean at the moment he's almost playing position-less on offense. It's like we either run the offense through him or he stands in the corner waiting for the ball to come to him...i don't see how that will change playing at the 2 or 3. Also, usually the best defender takes him so it's not like he's playing shorter opponents or anything, he'll have the same defender if he moves to the 3 (in the majority of cases i guess) as he demands the teams best defender.


Well, generally the difference between a 2 and a 3 on offense revolves around emphasis on on-court positioning and the types of shots you're after. A 3, at least classically, will be looking for the high post, high post rubs to get to the rim, ways to start under the arc a lot more often. 2s are generally more used in catch-and-shoots (especially 3s), wing isolations, the sidescreen and mid-screen plays...

I mean, a lot of that stuff translates over, bleeds between positions, but a classic three is someone who's generally looking at getting to the rim hard, starting closer to the basket, etc.

Durant waiting in the corners for the ball is passive and bad regardless of position but he needs to be moving off the ball, trying to slip seams and get himself into more advantageous starting positions. I mean, I'd run him through cross screens to get him on the elbow because then he's 15-18 feet from the rim and his face-up jumper is about a zillion times better than his 3 ball, you know? And his height is a lot more important if he can put his back to the basket a little more often.

And while it's true that he'd generally have the same defender, it's not so much the defender that makes the difference as how he is placed in the offense.

So i don't really see the difference between him playing the 2 or 3, unless another 2 or 3 comes in (mayo, beasley, green improves) that is capable of demanding another key defender. It's like LeBron, you can start him at PG if you want and make him guard a center, but he's still gonna do all the same things on offense that he does now.


Actually no, you can't make Lebron a PG; Cleveland tried that and it didn't work. There's a reason they run him alongside Eric Snow and Delonte West the way they do. It was his first year when they tried that but he's too valuable as a scorer.

But that's a good point; Lebron is a multi-positional player on account of his physique and his ball-handling/passing skills. He DOES spend time at the 2, the 1, the 3 and the 4... even the 5, sometimes.

And there's nothing wrong with Durant spending time at the 2, there aren't that many single-position players in the NBA anymore that aren't centers.

But most players will have a focus position and IMO, Durant would be better off if he were used more like a SF than a SG, if only because it's a more active role usually.

You look at guys like Kobe and MJ, they played a fair chunk of SF (especially older MJ); Jordan had the SF's role on offense moreso than did Pippen, for example, and Kobe is routinely found in the post and Phil Jackson has always said he's more effective at the 3 than the 2.

Durant needs to bulk up some (inasmuch as he is capable of so doing) but primarily, it's more than Carleisimo needs to put him in different spots, closer to the rim when he starts.
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Post#93 » by Tirion » Mon Feb 1, 2010 11:05 am

tsherkin wrote:I think 7 rpg is a little bit unlikely from Durant and I don't think he'll be a 27 ppg scorer annually but he's most definitely going to bump his efficiency up and score in the 22-24 ppg range, maybe higher.


tsherkin wrote:I think that he'll probably peak in the 24-26 ppg range ala Ray Allen (another guy who's a shooter above all else and who has a nice finesse skill set) but really, this statement is a bit of a clunker.


tsherkin wrote:Ludicrous; the number of players that have enjoyed seasons of 28+ ppg in the last 9 years is as follows:

Shaquille O'neal, Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant, Jerry Stackhouse, Tracy McGrady, Lebron James, Gilbert Arenas and Carmelo Anthony.

Durant is nothing like any of these guys. To say he'll approach 30 ppg is to assume that he'll overcome a fairly significant trend towards peak athletes and physical specimens dominating the scoring game, traits he does not now nor will he ever possess.


tsherkin wrote:It's too early to tell what he might do but it's certainly possible for him to hit 26 ppg once or twice. I've been a proponent of the idea that he'll be a scorer of or slightly superior to the caliber displayed by Ray Allen... which is excellent, of course, but not truly elite, the big caveat I have on Durant.


tsherkin wrote:If Durant does what Gervin did, I'll be impressed. Or perhaps "stunned into submission" would be a more accurate phrase. Gervin was ridiculously efficient from the floor and it would be a HUGE jump for Durant to get to that level.


tsherkin wrote:field goal efficiency will limit Durant. Unless he turns himself into a 40%+ 3PT shooter, shooting 44-48% from the floor will not be sufficient to get him much above 23, 24 ppg unless he's taking a detrimental number of shots per game. And if he's relying on his jumper to be his dominant offensive weapon, then he's not going to be an elite scorer, for the most part.


tsherkin wrote:For Durant to really "approach" 28 ppg, I assume you're talking about him scoring 26, 27 ppg a couple of times and that's just not a common thing. He's neither broadly skilled enough nor possessed of sufficiently dominant physical attributes to do that and do it well.


tsherkin wrote:Durant is going to be a special player.

He's going to be a good scorer, a guy who can score 20+ on 44% or better from the field. That's rare, that takes skill... and lots of it.

And because he exploits his height against smaller guys, he reminds me a lot of McGrady as a scorer... today's McGrady, not Orlando McGrady.

Today's McGrady, who takes 21+ shots per game, shoots in the low/mid 40s, scores around 24 ppg and can get dominant when his shot gets hot. But T-Mac is an elite offensive player because of his playmaking ability, which is far beyond of what Durant is capable. T-Mac is one of the best passers over 6'6 the league has ever seen; Durant is not, though he's hardly Eddy Curry, of course. He's more like Ray-Ray or Vince.

But people are looking at him as if he's going to be this 26-30 ppg scorer and those just don't happen without dominant physical traits that Durant does not possess.


tsherkin wrote:OK, so he's got some foundational skills necessary in order to become a scorer. Great. He's got the green light to shoot and is in a situation in which he can get shots at any time, also great.

But if you're relying on the fine tradition of overrating the value of length, you're going to be sorely disappointed. These are the same sorts of things that were said about Keith Van Horn, Andrea Bargnani, etc. Neither was a 2-guard, of course, but the principle is the same.

The dominant scorers in the league have been post-up guys and athletic slashers. Durant will ultimately supplement his game with some post-ups once he fills out a bit but he's never going to be Adrian Dantley and he's not as skilled as a guy like Bird, so I don't see the elite status really coming to the fore in his game.

He'll be very good and probably a perennial All-Star but I doubt very strongly that he challenges for 30 ppg or that he scores 27+ more than once on good efficiency.


Pretty funny how that turned out, huh? Not to bag on tsherkin who's as brilliant of a bball mind as anybody on PC board, but that's the problem with scouts and such people. They get too caught up in draft measurements, benchpress tests and whatnot. Durant was an elite scorer in college. He's an elite scorer now, in the NBA:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... rder_by=ws
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Re: Kevin Durant 

Post#94 » by FakeScreenName123 » Mon Feb 1, 2010 11:38 am

LOL. tsherkin is another word for owned.
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Re: Kevin Durant 

Post#95 » by Mamba Venom » Mon Feb 1, 2010 11:42 am

⎷⎛⎝You cant type Durant w/o this font ⎷⎛⎝


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Re: Kevin Durant 

Post#96 » by Icestorm959 » Mon Feb 1, 2010 12:12 pm

Put it this way:

If Blazers took Durant instead of Oden, Lakers would be the second seed out West.
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Post#97 » by D-31 » Mon Feb 1, 2010 12:13 pm

Tirion wrote:Pretty funny how that turned out, huh? Not to bag on tsherkin who's as brilliant of a bball mind as anybody on PC board, but that's the problem with scouts and such people. They get too caught up in draft measurements, benchpress tests and whatnot. Durant was an elite scorer in college. He's an elite scorer now, in the NBA:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... rder_by=ws


Another problem is people jumping the gun too early saying how great a player will become. Kevin Durant still hasn't won a thing, OKC is winning because of their defense, which Durant is terrible at still. Durant still has a long ways to go to reach Shaq or LeBron who were miles better than Durant at the same age.
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Re: Kevin Durant 

Post#98 » by pross » Mon Feb 1, 2010 12:17 pm

D-31 wrote:
Tirion wrote:Pretty funny how that turned out, huh? Not to bag on tsherkin who's as brilliant of a bball mind as anybody on PC board, but that's the problem with scouts and such people. They get too caught up in draft measurements, benchpress tests and whatnot. Durant was an elite scorer in college. He's an elite scorer now, in the NBA:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... rder_by=ws


Another problem is people jumping the gun too early saying how great a player will become. Kevin Durant still hasn't won a thing, OKC is winning because of their defense, which Durant is terrible at still. Durant still has a long ways to go to reach Shaq or LeBron who were miles better than Durant at the same age.


Miles better? How so? Durant has broken pretty much every scoring record for someone his age. Yes even better than Lebron. The guy is a stud and needs to start getting some props.
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Re: Kevin Durant 

Post#99 » by heh8me2 » Mon Feb 1, 2010 12:25 pm

can u please list these scoring records he has broken so far?
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Re: Kevin Durant 

Post#100 » by D-31 » Mon Feb 1, 2010 12:26 pm

pross wrote:Miles better? How so? Durant has broken pretty much every scoring record for someone his age. Yes even better than Lebron. The guy is a stud and needs to start getting some props.


What records?

Shaq/LeBron were much more complete players. Durant is still one-dimensional. Shaq/LeBron plus countless others could have scored more if that was the only thing they were good at.

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