NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24

[Wolfgang630]

I wonder if this was what it was like during the Bird vs Magic Era. Imagine forums being a thing in that time period.

[eyeatoma]

Jokic isn't on the same planet as Embiid defensively. When it comes to the playoffs, Embiid basically becomes the best defender in the league. In the regular season he's a top 3-10 defender. Jokic knowing properly positioning will do **** all in making a true impact. He will not be a net negative that's it. I don't care what advanced stats you throw. Ask any expert, any talking head, or the defensive player of the year board and they will say the same.

there is literally nothing to support your claim that Embiid turns into "the best defender in the league" in the playoffs. nothing but ur stanism.

last season over the 7 game series with the Celtics, the Celtics dropped 114 on Embiid. yes, he blocked more shots (but also took less rebounds, comapred to the rs)

sure a 7 foot guy, who leads all centers in steals every year, leads the league in rebounding, has ATG touch and timing not to mention I.Q is "not a net negative"

I asked you a thousand times but i'll try again: how is it that both in the rs and in the playoffs, Denver's defense plummets when Jokic sits on the bench? I mean, he's an exploitable liability, right?

he's a big "net positive" on defense, that's why. he's def limited in some areas, and Embiid is miles better as a rim protector but that's it - Jokic is better in almost all other aspects of defense - live with it

if there's a gap between their defensive impacts (which i'm not even sure is the case, but those things are very hard to quantify objectively) then it's a small gap and the offensive gap is huge.

so if we're counting both sides of the ball (and we are) - it's still easiliy Jokic, nothing wrong with being 2nd best.

Lol it's more than blocking more shots... These are tweets from the last 2 to 3 playoffs Embiid has participated in.

Read on Twitter

?t=StNqVk9yHB7UX5XUuBZRDA&s=19

Read on Twitter

?t=vQRb-RT2ksODOTYy-dzmHQ&s=19

Read on Twitter

?t=tq_YW52Yq_Aph9Ev095FLg&s=19

Read on Twitter

?t=1ElNqwx1IwNW_h9hc7dfMQ&s=19

Read on Twitter

?t=9DCe07JeMmE3gZgXLoUmpw&s=19

Read on Twitter

?t=NExKVW1i-BqG2DVJjnpk4Q&s=19

[Hussien Fatal]

there is literally nothing to support your claim that Embiid turns into "the best defender in the league" in the playoffs. nothing but ur stanism.

last season over the 7 game series with the Celtics, the Celtics dropped 114 on Embiid. yes, he blocked more shots (but also took less rebounds, comapred to the rs)

sure a 7 foot guy, who leads all centers in steals every year, leads the league in rebounding, has ATG touch and timing not to mention I.Q is "not a net negative"

I asked you a thousand times but i'll try again: how is it that both in the rs and in the playoffs, Denver's defense plummets when Jokic sits on the bench? I mean, he's an exploitable liability, right?

he's a big "net positive" on defense, that's why. he's def limited in some areas, and Embiid is miles better as a rim protector but that's it - Jokic is better in almost all other aspects of defense - live with it

if there's a gap between their defensive impacts (which i'm not even sure is the case, but those things are very hard to quantify objectively) then it's a small gap and the offensive gap is huge.

so if we're counting both sides of the ball (and we are) - it's still easiliy Jokic, nothing wrong with being 2nd best.

Lol it's more than blocking more shots...

Read on Twitter

?t=StNqVk9yHB7UX5XUuBZRDA&s=19

Read on Twitter

?t=vQRb-RT2ksODOTYy-dzmHQ&s=19

Read on Twitter

?t=tq_YW52Yq_Aph9Ev095FLg&s=19

Read on Twitter

?t=1ElNqwx1IwNW_h9hc7dfMQ&s=19

Read on Twitter

?t=9DCe07JeMmE3gZgXLoUmpw&s=19

Read on Twitter

?t=NExKVW1i-BqG2DVJjnpk4Q&s=19

Ahhh yep this is more than stanism. Looks like you hit him with facts. I’ll tell you what stanism is. Stanism Is literally thinking Jokic is even close to as good of a defender as EMBIID is. Embiid trumps him on the defensive side of the ball.

[eyeatoma]

people talk about embiid likes it's a bad thing to finish top 3 in MVP voting for like 5 straight years lol. some people are so bitter about the sixers/embiid. Seems most sixers/embiid fans are content with the MVP for Embiid and could care less if he wins another one. most of the toxic post are towards Embiid.

There are a lot of anti-Embiid posts, but it is almost always the same 4-5 posters (woodsanity, cubbies etc). If they didn’t post, it would not be that many.

It would be nice to see him get another one, but not too concerned now. He already brought one for the city of Philadelphia. First since the Answer. Anything else is a bonus.

This whole thing, going back for two years, is because some Philly and/or Embiid fans cannot accept the fact that he is the 2nd best center in the league. Woodsanity is an absolutely great poster who is not at all anti-Embiid, but anti-youcannotacceptthatJokicisbetter posters. Everything stems from you guys insisting on him being the best. If not the best player, then the best center, and obviously neither is true.

Like I said you guys should just rename this the all things Jokic thread, because you refuse to consider anyone else but him ever. Even when Embiid was about to win the MVP most of this board was in denial, and then had to resort to the idea that was Jokic giving up to let Embiid win.

[Exp0sed]

Ahhh yep this is more than stanism. Looks like you hit him with facts. I’ll tell you what stanism is. Stanism Is literally thinking Jokic is even close to as good of a defender as EMBIID is. Embiid trumps him on the defensive side of the ball.

Hussein is back!

facts? it's one series..in which he personally played 6 games for a 2-4 record
maybe it was a good defensive matchup for him?

he def played great defense in that series, but only for certain spurts and quarters. he didn't do it consistently.

get real, a team with the best defender (by far) in the league, alongside Tucker, Melton etc only held Boston to 114 on avg?
something just doesn't add up

Jokic is def "close" to Embiid as a defender, because he doesn't lose focus and doesn't take plays off. also, he has got the stamina to go hard for an entire playoff run, after a grueling season - Embiid does not, he's out of breath by the time they reach the 2nd rnd

you're confounding hypotethical abilities, skillsets and capabilities with what is actually happening in reality.
in reality Embiid has the attention span of a 5 year old and the stamina of a 40 year old and he doesn't have neither the energy nor the mental resolve to actually bring it consistently play after play

it's like asking who would AD be if he weren't a beta..yeah, he's be a true ATG if he were an alpha but he isn't so what's the point in discussing it?

[eyeatoma]

Hussein is back!

facts? it's one series..in which he personally played 6 games for a 2-4 record
maybe it was a good defensive matchup for him?

he def played great defense in that series, but only for certain spurts and quarters. he didn't do it consistently.

get real, a team with the best defender (by far) in the league, alongside Tucker, Melton etc only held Boston to 114 on avg?
something just doesn't add up

Jokic is def "close" to Embiid as a defender, because he doesn't lose focus and doesn't take plays off. also, he has got the stamina to go hard for an entire playoff run, after a grueling season - Embiid does not, he's out of breath by the time they reach the 2nd rnd

you're confounding hypotethical abilities, skillsets and capabilities with what is actually happening in reality.
in reality Embiid has the attention span of a 5 year old and the stamina of a 40 year old and he doesn't have neither the energy nor the mental resolve to actually bring it consistently play after play

it's like asking who would AD be if he weren't a beta..yeah, he's be a true ATG if he were an alpha but he isn't so what's the point in discussing it?

This was not just in the Celtics series either, this has basically been a constant for every playoffs. He is a top 1-3 defender in the league in the playoffs. Embiid consistently turns it up a notch. In the regular season he bides his time for when it's most important. This year he's cranked it up,and his rebounds are back up again.

I am literally providing you with evidence from credentialed journalists. You have a better idea of this stuff than me or you, and you still refuse to believe it. I'm done.

[Johnny Firpo]

There are a lot of anti-Embiid posts, but it is almost always the same 4-5 posters (woodsanity, cubbies etc). If they didn’t post, it would not be that many.

It would be nice to see him get another one, but not too concerned now. He already brought one for the city of Philadelphia. First since the Answer. Anything else is a bonus.

This whole thing, going back for two years, is because some Philly and/or Embiid fans cannot accept the fact that he is the 2nd best center in the league. Woodsanity is an absolutely great poster who is not at all anti-Embiid, but anti-youcannotacceptthatJokicisbetter posters. Everything stems from you guys insisting on him being the best. If not the best player, then the best center, and obviously neither is true.

Like I said you guys should just rename this the all things Jokic thread, because you refuse to consider anyone else but him ever. Even when Embiid was about to win the MVP most of this board was in denial, and then had to resort to the idea that was Jokic giving up to let Embiid win.

I mean, the guy averaged a triple-double last year on 70% TS (basically, was very close in assists). Embiid had a great season, and he is a great player, he is just not as good as Jokic, or at least wasn't in the last two years. And I don't think we resorted to the idea that Jokic was letting him win it, that's silly. The narrative won it for him, and part of that narrative was the fact that he played great, but it was not the only part of the narrative, and I'm sure you will agree with that part at least.

[Exp0sed]

Hussein is back!

facts? it's one series..in which he personally played 6 games for a 2-4 record
maybe it was a good defensive matchup for him?

he def played great defense in that series, but only for certain spurts and quarters. he didn't do it consistently.

get real, a team with the best defender (by far) in the league, alongside Tucker, Melton etc only held Boston to 114 on avg?
something just doesn't add up

Jokic is def "close" to Embiid as a defender, because he doesn't lose focus and doesn't take plays off. also, he has got the stamina to go hard for an entire playoff run, after a grueling season - Embiid does not, he's out of breath by the time they reach the 2nd rnd

you're confounding hypotethical abilities, skillsets and capabilities with what is actually happening in reality.
in reality Embiid has the attention span of a 5 year old and the stamina of a 40 year old and he doesn't have neither the energy nor the mental resolve to actually bring it consistently play after play

it's like asking who would AD be if he weren't a beta..yeah, he's be a true ATG if he were an alpha but he isn't so what's the point in discussing it?

This was not just in the Celtics series either, this has basically been a constant for every playoffs. He is a top 1-3 defender in the league in the playoffs. Embiid consistently turns it up a notch. In the regular season he bides his time for when it's most important. This year he's cranked it up,and his rebounds are back up again.

I am literally providing you with evidence from credentialed journalists. You have a better idea of this stuff than me or you, and you still refuse to believe it. I'm done.

so what's your saying is...he's a top 1-3 defender in the playoffs and is the best scorer "ever" (as he put it) and yet his teams fail to advance beyond the 2nd round, despite him sharing the floor with good talent around him and even some All-Stars and ATG players, gotcha!

[LordCovington33]

Embiid is the Eastern Conference Player of the Week, and Edwards got it for the west.

The tally:
Maxey 1
Tatum 1
embiid 1
Curry 1
Jokic 1
Edwards 1

[Doctor MJ]

Like I said you guys should just rename this the all things Jokic thread, because you refuse to consider anyone else but him ever. Even when Embiid was about to win the MVP most of this board was in denial, and then had to resort to the idea that was Jokic giving up to let Embiid win.

So, I'm reluctant to jump into this thread because of the toxicity that's been here since last season that I see has roared back to life, but I feel compelled to point out two things, one general, and one specific to you eyeatoma.

The general:

Last year Embiid supporters here were yelling again and again that everyone in here had some mad Jokic bias...only for us to watch the playoffs play out and see Jokic drastically outplay Embiid and everyone else. When you add in all the crap that was going on outside of RealGM that amounted to racial bias against Jokic, I think the Embiid supporters need to show some humility and tolerance for others.

Can Jokic folks be biased? Sure, no group is immune to that.
But the reasonable takeaway from last year was surely not that the stuff Embiid supporters had directed at Jokic had an objective basis in reality. If you're coming back here now and not respecting Jokic, and not acknowledging that the Jokic folks - even if they are biased - had a point that Embiid folks were not acknowledging previously, I'd say a dose of humility is really required if further conversation is going to get anywhere.

The specific:

I literally remember you jumping off the Embiid bandwagon in a post last year after months and months of some of the most extreme stanning I've ever witnessed, and now it really feels like you're pretending that you didn't do this. Possibly you'd adroitly acknowledge your bandwagon abandonment from before, but the thing that sticks with me here is the tone you personally have used with people arguing against Embiid for the vast majority of posts I've seen from you on the subject both before you jumped off the bandwagon, and again right now.

This then to say:

Embiid had a case for MVP last year and may well have one this year...but you haven't helped the credibility of that case with your approach to the debate. You're the guy constantly yelling that everyone on the other side is the problem...but you are absolutely at the epicenter of the problem, and everyone around you can see this. You're not fooling anyone, except possibly yourself.

I'd advise you to chew on that and consider whether this is really how you want to be seen, and if you don't, change your approach to discussion.

[Woodsanity]

there is literally nothing to support your claim that Embiid turns into "the best defender in the league" in the playoffs. nothing but ur stanism.

last season over the 7 game series with the Celtics, the Celtics dropped 114 on Embiid. yes, he blocked more shots (but also took less rebounds, comapred to the rs)

sure a 7 foot guy, who leads all centers in steals every year, leads the league in rebounding, has ATG touch and timing not to mention I.Q is "not a net negative"

I asked you a thousand times but i'll try again: how is it that both in the rs and in the playoffs, Denver's defense plummets when Jokic sits on the bench? I mean, he's an exploitable liability, right?

he's a big "net positive" on defense, that's why. he's def limited in some areas, and Embiid is miles better as a rim protector but that's it - Jokic is better in almost all other aspects of defense - live with it

if there's a gap between their defensive impacts (which i'm not even sure is the case, but those things are very hard to quantify objectively) then it's a small gap and the offensive gap is huge.

so if we're counting both sides of the ball (and we are) - it's still easiliy Jokic, nothing wrong with being 2nd best.

Lol it's more than blocking more shots... These are tweets from the last 2 to 3 playoffs Embiid has participated in.

Read on Twitter

?t=StNqVk9yHB7UX5XUuBZRDA&s=19

Read on Twitter

?t=vQRb-RT2ksODOTYy-dzmHQ&s=19

Read on Twitter

?t=tq_YW52Yq_Aph9Ev095FLg&s=19

Read on Twitter

?t=1ElNqwx1IwNW_h9hc7dfMQ&s=19

Read on Twitter

?t=9DCe07JeMmE3gZgXLoUmpw&s=19

Read on Twitter

?t=NExKVW1i-BqG2DVJjnpk4Q&s=19

there is literally nothing to support your claim that Embiid turns into "the best defender in the league" in the playoffs. nothing but ur stanism.

last season over the 7 game series with the Celtics, the Celtics dropped 114 on Embiid. yes, he blocked more shots (but also took less rebounds, comapred to the rs)

sure a 7 foot guy, who leads all centers in steals every year, leads the league in rebounding, has ATG touch and timing not to mention I.Q is "not a net negative"

I asked you a thousand times but i'll try again: how is it that both in the rs and in the playoffs, Denver's defense plummets when Jokic sits on the bench? I mean, he's an exploitable liability, right?

he's a big "net positive" on defense, that's why. he's def limited in some areas, and Embiid is miles better as a rim protector but that's it - Jokic is better in almost all other aspects of defense - live with it

if there's a gap between their defensive impacts (which i'm not even sure is the case, but those things are very hard to quantify objectively) then it's a small gap and the offensive gap is huge.

so if we're counting both sides of the ball (and we are) - it's still easiliy Jokic, nothing wrong with being 2nd best.

Lol it's more than blocking more shots...

Read on Twitter

?t=StNqVk9yHB7UX5XUuBZRDA&s=19

Read on Twitter

?t=vQRb-RT2ksODOTYy-dzmHQ&s=19

Read on Twitter

?t=tq_YW52Yq_Aph9Ev095FLg&s=19

Read on Twitter

?t=1ElNqwx1IwNW_h9hc7dfMQ&s=19

Read on Twitter

?t=9DCe07JeMmE3gZgXLoUmpw&s=19

Read on Twitter

?t=NExKVW1i-BqG2DVJjnpk4Q&s=19

Ahhh yep this is more than stanism. Looks like you hit him with facts. I’ll tell you what stanism is. Stanism Is literally thinking Jokic is even close to as good of a defender as EMBIID is. Embiid trumps him on the defensive side of the ball.

Read on Twitter

Huh where did his defense go when it actually mattered?

Complete traffic cone on defense and pick and roll victim.

Meanwhile....
The Heat shot 44% on shots inside 6 feet against Nikola Jokic in the finals.

Embiid is better on defense but he is even worse in pick and roll than Jokic. He is not an elite defender when it matters. Defensive gap is not as big as one would think and the offensive gap is huge.

[Special_Puppy]

Jokic was universally predicted to be the objective best player coming into this season. Jokic has been the league's best player so far by most objective metrics. Unless something changes this isn't an interesting discussion.

[eyeatoma]

Like I said you guys should just rename this the all things Jokic thread, because you refuse to consider anyone else but him ever. Even when Embiid was about to win the MVP most of this board was in denial, and then had to resort to the idea that was Jokic giving up to let Embiid win.

So, I'm reluctant to jump into this thread because of the toxicity that's been here since last season that I see has roared back to life, but I feel compelled to point out two things, one general, and one specific to you eyeatoma.

The general:

Last year Embiid supporters here were yelling again and again that everyone in here had some mad Jokic bias...only for us to watch the playoffs play out and see Jokic drastically outplay Embiid and everyone else. When you add in all the crap that was going on outside of RealGM that amounted to racial bias against Jokic, I think the Embiid supporters need to show some humility and tolerance for others.

Can Jokic folks be biased? Sure, no group is immune to that.
But the reasonable takeaway from last year was surely not that the stuff Embiid supporters had directed at Jokic had an objective basis in reality. If you're coming back here now and not respecting Jokic, and not acknowledging that the Jokic folks - even if they are biased - had a point that Embiid folks were not acknowledging previously, I'd say a dose of humility is really required if further conversation is going to get anywhere.

The specific:

I literally remember you jumping off the Embiid bandwagon in a post last year after months and months of some of the most extreme stanning I've ever witnessed, and now it really feels like you're pretending that you didn't do this. Possibly you'd adroitly acknowledge your bandwagon abandonment from before, but the thing that sticks with me here is the tone you personally have used with people arguing against Embiid for the vast majority of posts I've seen from you on the subject both before you jumped off the bandwagon, and again right now.

This then to say:

Embiid had a case for MVP last year and may well have one this year...but you haven't helped the credibility of that case with your approach to the debate. You're the guy constantly yelling that everyone on the other side is the problem...but you are absolutely at the epicenter of the problem, and everyone around you can see this. You're not fooling anyone, except possibly yourself.

I'd advise you to chew on that and consider whether this is really how you want to be seen, and if you don't, change your approach to discussion.

As I've said numerous times in this thread this season, Jokic is the better player as of now than Embiid. Jokic's ability to turn it up a notch in the playoffs, and at the very least maintain his regular season numbers as opposed to Embiid was starkly different.

My issue on this thread, has always been the ridiculous stanning that goes on for him. It's one thing to say he's the best offensive player on the planet, it's another to say that you can't see the difference between his defense on Embiid, except for some highlight blocks. Embiid is consistently on the poll for DPOY on the DPOY thread. Why is that? Because he's a great defender. You'll never see Jokic on that thread. Case in point, right now, and every other season of their careers.

I spoke in a moment of great frustration, saying I'm done going so hard for someone. I needed some time. I'm more invested in this season because of Maxey, and what MOrey has done to give the team a chance to build a more competetent team around Embiid, and them having an actual coach. I'm cautious yet optimistic about the playoffs seeing that Horford has continued to age, Porzingis can't guard Embiid, and the Bucks looks like a .500 team. I also needed time to realize that there were a variety of factors that contributed to his poor playoff performances.

1. He's never had a good coach. He had Brett Brown, and Doc Rivers.
2. He's had injuries every post season except for 1. All of these injuries were ones he returned from early. If he had hurt himself in the regular season he would have been out for a longer time. https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/joel-embiid-injury-timeline-76ers-nba-playoffs/lfizbjavggdkl3dbq309jlei This article include all of them except for last seasons LCL injury.

Read on Twitter

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/21710-lcl-tears

Grade 1: Knee injuries are mild. Your LCL is not completely torn. You should heal with only at-home treatment, including the use of crutches. Your healthcare provider might also have you wear a hinged knee brace when you’re allowed to put some weight on your knee. You’ll likely feel better after about three to four weeks.

Grade 2: Knee injuries are considered moderate. You have a partial tear in your LCL. For a grade 2 injury, you’ll need to use crutches and then a hinged knee brace. Recovery will take about eight to 12 weeks.

2a. You had people on this thread saying a sprained wrist, was worst than a broken face (orbital fracture). How do you want me to respond to that lol
2b. Apart from his injuries this is the stuff he has had to deal with in the regular season.

Read on Twitter

/photo/1

Jokic had an incredibly normal career with the Nuggets when you compare the 30 for 30 greatest hits version the Sixers had. Yeah Jokic has lost a few players to injury and that put a cap on his playoff potential. Once they were healthy they won the Chip. He is a future top 10 player, who will likely win another 2-3 chips.

3. Embiid had Ben Simmons and James Harden, two great talents who would come up very small in the playoffs. With Simmons it was much of the same form the regular season, but he even loss his great defense, and playmaking ability in the last few games against the Hawks. With Harden it was numerous seasons of him coming up small in the last few games, making Embiid have to play 4 on 5. Especially given the fact that they also had PJ Tucker (who brought the defense and had one great game in game 7 against Boston, but by in large was a huge negative on offense).

3a. When considering this, it's not hard to imagine why his numbers take a drastic turns. He is playing 4 on 5, and teams hard double and triple him. When he makes the pass to Harden, he doesn't shoot, or he pounds the air out of the ball. Doc never made it easy on him like Nurse because no one would cut.

So to answer your question, I was incredibly frustrated with Embiid, but am also able to realize there are a number of other factors affecting his performance. I still think he has some problems in tight game situations, (doesn't do a great job reading doubles, and tightens up), but I'm not sure it's always on him. We saw him play extraordinarily well against the Raptors, and then hit the game winner on a ridiculous 3 pointer, so he is able to be clutch. Note, Harden had fouled out as well.

So yes it's basically that, if people on here can be respectful, and are willing to acknowledge that we have two incredible players, then it really shouldn't be a problem. There is a lot Embiid hating on this thread, where people just post what they know the lowest common denominators will like, just so they can farm and1s.

Have you ever seen people on here, other than Sixers fans here given credit to Embiid for great games? It's fairly rare. Most times when he has a great game the response is, lol 25 fts. Lol look at that efficiency. 50/17/7/8 blocks. What? Jokic had 15 assists, that's nothing. You can think I stan for Embiid all you want, the GB has an unhealthy disdain towards Embiid, he did himself no favors in the playoffs, he's still one of the top 5 players in the world, and is absolutely generational. He's an MVP runner up for 2 seasons, and the current MVP. People want respect for Jokic, he had no playoff success except for 1 conference finals appearance, yet they had no problem giving him his flowers. With Embiid he had numerous game 7s, many while he was injured, dealing with shrinking co-stars, and people trash him for it. No one is willing to see the nuances with this stuff, they just go 100% to nope, it's all on Embiid.

I try to be here to bring balance to the thread. I think when people come here just reading a post or two of what I'm saying, without see the context of the conversations I'm having in response to posters, it can seem different. Zoom out and see the whole picture and you can see what my true intent is.

[ty 4191]

This was not just in the Celtics series either, this has basically been a constant for every playoffs. He is a top 1-3 defender in the league in the playoffs. Embiid consistently turns it up a notch.

You cherry pick a couple series and link a few highlights and think that's an exhaustive case and comprehensive proof of anything?

You can keep repeating statements like "Embiid is a top 1-3 defender in the league" and "Jokic sucks/is a huge liability on defense" all you want, Eyeatoma, but until you bring hard data and facts for very long stretches of their careers- or their ENTIRE careers, preferably, nobody has (or will) buy anything you say.

Just repeating over, and over, (and over) that Jokic and Embiid are close in value, overall, ALSO doesn't prove anything. Nothing. You've been regurgitating the same baseless claims here for 4 straight seasons, and nobody buys it. You bring no data or facts to an argument aside from "Because I said so", and expect people to be convinced? Like, seriously?

Jokic has totally buried Embiid in every single MVP poll we've ever run (dozens of progressive iterations of them, now) since the beginning of 2020-2021, at the latest.

Nobody here agrees with you the past 4 seasons that Embiid is a better center than Jokic, or, ever has, aside from a small cabal of Stan 76ers Fans totally blinded by their own willful myopia and zealotry.

[ty 4191]

Zoom out and see the whole picture and you can see what my true intent is.

Remind me how many All Stars, All NBA teammates, and All Defensive Teammates, AND future HOFers Embiid has played with since 2016-2017, compared to Jokic?

Read on Twitter

[eyeatoma]

Zoom out and see the whole picture and you can see what my true intent is.

Remind me how many All Stars, All NBA teammates, and All Defensive Teammates, AND future HOFers Embiid has played with since 2016-2017, compared to Jokic?

Read on Twitter

Bro you talk about cherry picking and you quoted 1 sentence.

Your previous post mentions Jokic is better. This season when have I not said that??????

I have also told you those stats are not only from the Celtics playoffs, yet your continuing to ignore that.

[ty 4191]

Zoom out and see the whole picture and you can see what my true intent is.

Remind me how many All Stars, All NBA teammates, and All Defensive Teammates, AND future HOFers Embiid has played with since 2016-2017, compared to Jokic?

Read on Twitter

Bro you talk about cherry picking and you quoted 1 sentence.

Your previous post mentions Jokic is better. This season when have I not said that??????

I have also told you those stats are not only from the Celtics playoffs, yet your continuing to ignore that.

Where's the career data to support that Embiid has been a "top 1-3 defender in the playoffs"? Embiid has played 11 different playoff series across 6 years. Where's the data proving "he's top 1-3 defensively" over those 11 series (53 games)?

Where's the data that Jokic has been a "terrible (or even poor) defender" overall, during his prime run, the last 4 years, or, for his career?

Where's the data to support your never ending claim (the past 4 seasons, here, at nauseum, every discussion and poll) that Embiid has been either superior to Jokic in overall value, or, his equal? This is the SECOND time out of 1000s of times opining in these debates that you've said "Ok, Jokic is a better player than Embiid".

You bring nothing to the discuss except bloviating, pontificating, and facile, easy to detect and facile/specious reasoning and subjective standom.

As Doctor MJ interjected earlier, directed at you (specifically)- and he's arguably the most respected person in the history of Real GM Forums- YOU are and have been, "the epicenter" (his words) of the problem in totally debasing the quality and content of discourse in every one of these MVP discussions.

[ty 4191]

Bro you talk about cherry picking and you quoted 1 sentence.

Your previous post mentions Jokic is better. This season when have I not said that??????

I have also told you those stats are not only from the Celtics playoffs, yet your continuing to ignore that.

You totally ducked the question.

Remind me how many All Stars, All NBA teammates, and All Defensive Teammates, AND future HOFers Embiid has played with since 2016-2017, compared to Jokic?

Jokic has played with ZERO. How many has Embiid played with, same years? Embiid has played with at least 15 of the above.

[ty 4191]

Jokic was universally predicted to be the objective best player coming into this season. Jokic has been the league's best player so far by most objective metrics. Unless something changes this isn't an interesting discussion.

He's objectively been the best player for 4 straight seasons. By every objective measure. Only the idiots who don't understand math beyond "PPG" think Embiid has been a better player.

[CD_41]

Like I said you guys should just rename this the all things Jokic thread, because you refuse to consider anyone else but him ever. Even when Embiid was about to win the MVP most of this board was in denial, and then had to resort to the idea that was Jokic giving up to let Embiid win.

So, I'm reluctant to jump into this thread because of the toxicity that's been here since last season that I see has roared back to life, but I feel compelled to point out two things, one general, and one specific to you eyeatoma.

The general:

Last year Embiid supporters here were yelling again and again that everyone in here had some mad Jokic bias...only for us to watch the playoffs play out and see Jokic drastically outplay Embiid and everyone else. When you add in all the crap that was going on outside of RealGM that amounted to racial bias against Jokic, I think the Embiid supporters need to show some humility and tolerance for others.

Can Jokic folks be biased? Sure, no group is immune to that.
But the reasonable takeaway from last year was surely not that the stuff Embiid supporters had directed at Jokic had an objective basis in reality. If you're coming back here now and not respecting Jokic, and not acknowledging that the Jokic folks - even if they are biased - had a point that Embiid folks were not acknowledging previously, I'd say a dose of humility is really required if further conversation is going to get anywhere.

The specific:

I literally remember you jumping off the Embiid bandwagon in a post last year after months and months of some of the most extreme stanning I've ever witnessed, and now it really feels like you're pretending that you didn't do this. Possibly you'd adroitly acknowledge your bandwagon abandonment from before, but the thing that sticks with me here is the tone you personally have used with people arguing against Embiid for the vast majority of posts I've seen from you on the subject both before you jumped off the bandwagon, and again right now.

This then to say:

Embiid had a case for MVP last year and may well have one this year...but you haven't helped the credibility of that case with your approach to the debate. You're the guy constantly yelling that everyone on the other side is the problem...but you are absolutely at the epicenter of the problem, and everyone around you can see this. You're not fooling anyone, except possibly yourself.

I'd advise you to chew on that and consider whether this is really how you want to be seen, and if you don't, change your approach to discussion.

As I've said numerous times in this thread this season, Jokic is the better player as of now than Embiid. Jokic's ability to turn it up a notch in the playoffs, and at the very least maintain his regular season numbers as opposed to Embiid was starkly different.

My issue on this thread, has always been the ridiculous stanning that goes on for him. It's one thing to say he's the best offensive player on the planet, it's another to say that you can't see the difference between his defense on Embiid, except for some highlight blocks. Embiid is consistently on the poll for DPOY on the DPOY thread. Why is that? Because he's a great defender. You'll never see Jokic on that thread. Case in point, right now, and every other season of their careers.

I spoke in a moment of great frustration, saying I'm done going so hard for someone. I needed some time. I'm more invested in this season because of Maxey, and what MOrey has done to give the team a chance to build a more competetent team around Embiid, and them having an actual coach. I'm cautious yet optimistic about the playoffs seeing that Horford has continued to age, Porzingis can't guard Embiid, and the Bucks looks like a .500 team. I also needed time to realize that there were a variety of factors that contributed to his poor playoff performances.

1. He's never had a good coach. He had Brett Brown, and Doc Rivers.
2. He's had injuries every post season except for 1. All of these injuries were ones he returned from early. If he had hurt himself in the regular season he would have been out for a longer time. https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/joel-embiid-injury-timeline-76ers-nba-playoffs/lfizbjavggdkl3dbq309jlei This article include all of them except for last seasons LCL injury.

Read on Twitter

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/21710-lcl-tears

Grade 1: Knee injuries are mild. Your LCL is not completely torn. You should heal with only at-home treatment, including the use of crutches. Your healthcare provider might also have you wear a hinged knee brace when you’re allowed to put some weight on your knee. You’ll likely feel better after about three to four weeks.

Grade 2: Knee injuries are considered moderate. You have a partial tear in your LCL. For a grade 2 injury, you’ll need to use crutches and then a hinged knee brace. Recovery will take about eight to 12 weeks.

2a. You had people on this thread saying a sprained wrist, was worst than a broken face (orbital fracture). How do you want me to respond to that lol
2b. Apart from his injuries this is the stuff he has had to deal with in the regular season.

Read on Twitter

/photo/1

Jokic had an incredibly normal career with the Nuggets when you compare the 30 for 30 greatest hits version the Sixers had. Yeah Jokic has lost a few players to injury and that put a cap on his playoff potential. Once they were healthy they won the Chip. He is a future top 10 player, who will likely win another 2-3 chips.

3. Embiid had Ben Simmons and James Harden, two great talents who would come up very small in the playoffs. With Simmons it was much of the same form the regular season, but he even loss his great defense, and playmaking ability in the last few games against the Hawks. With Harden it was numerous seasons of him coming up small in the last few games, making Embiid have to play 4 on 5. Especially given the fact that they also had PJ Tucker (who brought the defense and had one great game in game 7 against Boston, but by in large was a huge negative on offense).

3a. When considering this, it's not hard to imagine why his numbers take a drastic turns. He is playing 4 on 5, and teams hard double and triple him. When he makes the pass to Harden, he doesn't shoot, or he pounds the air out of the ball. Doc never made it easy on him like Nurse because no one would cut.

So to answer your question, I was incredibly frustrated with Embiid, but am also able to realize there are a number of other factors affecting his performance. I still think he has some problems in tight game situations, (doesn't do a great job reading doubles, and tightens up), but I'm not sure it's always on him. We saw him play extraordinarily well against the Raptors, and then hit the game winner on a ridiculous 3 pointer, so he is able to be clutch. Note, Harden had fouled out as well.

So yes it's basically that, if people on here can be respectful, and are willing to acknowledge that we have two incredible players, then it really shouldn't be a problem. There is a lot Embiid hating on this thread, where people just post what they know the lowest common denominators will like, just so they can farm and1s.

Have you ever seen people on here, other than Sixers fans here given credit to Embiid for great games? It's fairly rare. Most times when he has a great game the response is, lol 25 fts. Lol look at that efficiency. 50/17/7/8 blocks. What? Jokic had 15 assists, that's nothing. You can think I stan for Embiid all you want, the GB has an unhealthy disdain towards Embiid, he did himself no favors in the playoffs, he's still one of the top 5 players in the world, and is absolutely generational. He's an MVP runner up for 2 seasons, and the current MVP. People want respect for Jokic, he had no playoff success except for 1 conference finals appearance, yet they had no problem giving him his flowers. With Embiid he had numerous game 7s, many while he was injured, dealing with shrinking co-stars, and people trash him for it. No one is willing to see the nuances with this stuff, they just go 100% to nope, it's all on Embiid.

I try to be here to bring balance to the thread. I think when people come here just reading a post or two of what I'm saying, without see the context of the conversations I'm having in response to posters, it can seem different. Zoom out and see the whole picture and you can see what my true intent is.

I don´t think you got the main criticism from Doctor MJ. It is actually not about who is the better player or MVP.
It is the intellectual honesty that 95% of your posts is missing. You constantly get called out for this, but you don´t seem to take any of this serious or take any accountability. This would be no big deal if you would post once a month. But since you are flooding the MVP thread multiple times a day, it is hard to have a good debate in here, because you tend to stir the conversation in a way, that leads to posts like the one above.

We are frustrated with you. You seem engaged, passionate but also severly out of touch with handling people. Which is ok, people have different strengths. But like many others said before me, take a hard look at yourself and try to be a better poster in here.