NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 5: So who's winning MVP? )

[Bank Shot]

Looking forward to the Luka fanboy meltdown when SGA gets second.

[hagredionis]

The Mavs are 46-24 with Luka and 4-8 without Luka.

[therealbig3]

What's Luka's case over Jokic?

Jokic has better numbers and led the better team. And he's still the clearly better player overall.

Luka has more total points scored, leads the league on PPG by a big margin, is second on APG and has more steals per game.Luka is also ahead of Jokic in both on EPM and DRIP, something that is rarely mentioned. He's also first among all guards in RPG and top10 in defensive rebounds. Luka also beat numerous all time records including for example the first ever +33/+9 /+9 season, the consecutive +30 point triple-doubles, the Mavs franchise single season points scored, a record which stood for 40 years etc. He also has the highest PPG+APG+RPG since 50 years.
On top of everything he also had historical games like the 73 points game, the fourth-most in NBA history or the legendary 50 points and 15 assists game on Christmas Day, only the second ever 50 pts / 15 assists game etc.

The Mavs also had a much worse luck with the injuries. This becomes very evident if you check the most played line-up by both teams.

These are a lot of arbitrary cutoffs you're using and I'm sure Jokic would look just as if not more impressive if you did the same for him. Fact of the matter is, his overall numbers look better in terms of basic and advanced stats, he's led a better team, and his impact profile is better.

Jokic is the better player on the better team, and he doesn't have a teammate as good as Kyrie Irving. Just using historical MVP criteria and precedence, Jokic is clearly the MVP. Shai has a better case just because he led the #1 seed. Luka didn't separate himself from the rest of the field to warrant winning an MVP as a 5 seed.

[therealbig3]

The Mavs are 46-24 with Luka and 4-8 without Luka.

Meh, pretty disingenuous, given they're 0-5 when both Luka and Kyrie aren't playing.

Without Luka, but with Kyrie, they're 4-3, which means they're not hopeless without Luka as long as their other star is playing.

Jokic also has like a +20 on/off, while Luka is +8.

I know Luka has been the chosen one for IDK how long, but he hasn't proven himself worthy of winning MVP yet.

[AleksandarN]

The Mavs are 46-24 with Luka and 4-8 without Luka.

Meh, pretty disingenuous, given they're 0-5 when both Luka and Kyrie aren't playing.

Without Luka, but with Kyrie, they're 4-3, which means they're not hopeless without Luka as long as their other star is playing.

Jokic also has like a +20 on/off, while Luka is +8.

I know Luka has been the chosen one for IDK how long, but he hasn't proven himself worthy of winning MVP yet.

Also Jokic won 9 more games than Luka 55 wins vs 46. MVP

[kartexpert]

The Mavs are 46-24 with Luka and 4-8 without Luka.

Meh, pretty disingenuous, given they're 0-5 when both Luka and Kyrie aren't playing.

Without Luka, but with Kyrie, they're 4-3, which means they're not hopeless without Luka as long as their other star is playing.

Jokic also has like a +20 on/off, while Luka is +8.

I know Luka has been the chosen one for IDK how long, but he hasn't proven himself worthy of winning MVP yet.

Also Jokic won 9 more games than Luka 55 wins vs 46. MVP

Payton Pritchard has 64 wins, 9 more than Jokic. Pretty clear who the MVP should be.

[Dadouv47]

Read on Twitter

I would still vote for Jokic tbh but Shai got a bit underrated because he was better earlier in the season (and he got hurt a bit last month)

[AleksandarN]

Meh, pretty disingenuous, given they're 0-5 when both Luka and Kyrie aren't playing.

Without Luka, but with Kyrie, they're 4-3, which means they're not hopeless without Luka as long as their other star is playing.

Jokic also has like a +20 on/off, while Luka is +8.

I know Luka has been the chosen one for IDK how long, but he hasn't proven himself worthy of winning MVP yet.

Also Jokic won 9 more games than Luka 55 wins vs 46. MVP

Payton Pritchard has 64 wins, 9 more than Jokic. Pretty clear who the MVP should be.

That’s in response to mvp candidates one of which their fan base compared 21 jokic team to this years mavs team’s place in the standing. Nice try though! But I agree it is pretty clear who should win it

[hagredionis]

What's Luka's case over Jokic?

Jokic has better numbers and led the better team. And he's still the clearly better player overall.

Luka has more total points scored, leads the league on PPG by a big margin, is second on APG and has more steals per game.Luka is also ahead of Jokic in both on EPM and DRIP, something that is rarely mentioned. He's also first among all guards in RPG and top10 in defensive rebounds. Luka also beat numerous all time records including for example the first ever +33/+9 /+9 season, the consecutive +30 point triple-doubles, the Mavs franchise single season points scored, a record which stood for 40 years etc. He also has the highest PPG+APG+RPG since 50 years.
On top of everything he also had historical games like the 73 points game, the fourth-most in NBA history or the legendary 50 points and 15 assists game on Christmas Day, only the second ever 50 pts / 15 assists game etc.

The Mavs also had a much worse luck with the injuries. This becomes very evident if you check the most played line-up by both teams.

These are a lot of arbitrary cutoffs you're using and I'm sure Jokic would look just as if not more impressive if you did the same for him. Fact of the matter is, his overall numbers look better in terms of basic and advanced stats, he's led a better team, and his impact profile is better.

Jokic is the better player on the better team, and he doesn't have a teammate as good as Kyrie Irving. Just using historical MVP criteria and precedence, Jokic is clearly the MVP. Shai has a better case just because he led the #1 seed. Luka didn't separate himself from the rest of the field to warrant winning an MVP as a 5 seed.

I am using "a lot of arbitrary cutoffs" Really? Like where exactly? Lets see what I wrote:

more total points scored - not an arbitrary cutoff
PPG leader - not an arbitrary cutoff
second APG - not an arbitrary cutoff
more steals - not an arbitrary cutoff
RPG - not an arbitrary cutoff
ahead on EPM - not an arbitrary cutoff
ahead on DRIP - not an arbitrary cutoff
first among all guards in RPG - not an arbitrary cutoff
franchise single season points scored - not an arbitrary cutoff
consecutive +30 point triple-doubles - not really an arbitrary cutoff, it's a stats used forever
first ever +33/+9 /+9 season - I guess one could argue that's an arbitrary cutoff but that's his numbers this season

So much so for the claim that I used "a lot of arbitrary cutoffs".

[AleksandarN]

Luka has more total points scored, leads the league on PPG by a big margin, is second on APG and has more steals per game.Luka is also ahead of Jokic in both on EPM and DRIP, something that is rarely mentioned. He's also first among all guards in RPG and top10 in defensive rebounds. Luka also beat numerous all time records including for example the first ever +33/+9 /+9 season, the consecutive +30 point triple-doubles, the Mavs franchise single season points scored, a record which stood for 40 years etc. He also has the highest PPG+APG+RPG since 50 years.
On top of everything he also had historical games like the 73 points game, the fourth-most in NBA history or the legendary 50 points and 15 assists game on Christmas Day, only the second ever 50 pts / 15 assists game etc.

The Mavs also had a much worse luck with the injuries. This becomes very evident if you check the most played line-up by both teams.

These are a lot of arbitrary cutoffs you're using and I'm sure Jokic would look just as if not more impressive if you did the same for him. Fact of the matter is, his overall numbers look better in terms of basic and advanced stats, he's led a better team, and his impact profile is better.

Jokic is the better player on the better team, and he doesn't have a teammate as good as Kyrie Irving. Just using historical MVP criteria and precedence, Jokic is clearly the MVP. Shai has a better case just because he led the #1 seed. Luka didn't separate himself from the rest of the field to warrant winning an MVP as a 5 seed.

I am using "a lot of arbitrary cutoffs" Really? Like where exactly? Lets see what I wrote:

more total points scored - not an arbitrary cutoff
PPG leader - not an arbitrary cutoff
second APG - not an arbitrary cutoff
more steals - not an arbitrary cutoff
RPG - not an arbitrary cutoff
ahead on EPM - not an arbitrary cutoff
ahead on DRIP - not an arbitrary cutoff
first among all guards in RPG - not an arbitrary cutoff
franchise single season points scored - not an arbitrary cutoff
consecutive +30 point triple-doubles - not really an arbitrary cutoff, it's a stats used forever
first ever +33/+9 /+9 season - I guess one could argue that's an arbitrary cutoff but that's his numbers this season

So much so for the claim that I used "a lot of arbitrary cutoffs".

I like how you switch from totals to per game stats then you go to ranking Luka vs other guards in some stats. Then use franchise records as well.

[QPR]

Luka has more total points scored, leads the league on PPG by a big margin, is second on APG and has more steals per game.Luka is also ahead of Jokic in both on EPM and DRIP, something that is rarely mentioned. He's also first among all guards in RPG and top10 in defensive rebounds. Luka also beat numerous all time records including for example the first ever +33/+9 /+9 season, the consecutive +30 point triple-doubles, the Mavs franchise single season points scored, a record which stood for 40 years etc. He also has the highest PPG+APG+RPG since 50 years.
On top of everything he also had historical games like the 73 points game, the fourth-most in NBA history or the legendary 50 points and 15 assists game on Christmas Day, only the second ever 50 pts / 15 assists game etc.

The Mavs also had a much worse luck with the injuries. This becomes very evident if you check the most played line-up by both teams.

These are a lot of arbitrary cutoffs you're using and I'm sure Jokic would look just as if not more impressive if you did the same for him. Fact of the matter is, his overall numbers look better in terms of basic and advanced stats, he's led a better team, and his impact profile is better.

Jokic is the better player on the better team, and he doesn't have a teammate as good as Kyrie Irving. Just using historical MVP criteria and precedence, Jokic is clearly the MVP. Shai has a better case just because he led the #1 seed. Luka didn't separate himself from the rest of the field to warrant winning an MVP as a 5 seed.

I am using "a lot of arbitrary cutoffs" Really? Like where exactly? Lets see what I wrote:

more total points scored - not an arbitrary cutoff
PPG leader - not an arbitrary cutoff
second APG - not an arbitrary cutoff
more steals - not an arbitrary cutoff
RPG - not an arbitrary cutoff
ahead on EPM - not an arbitrary cutoff
ahead on DRIP - not an arbitrary cutoff
first among all guards in RPG - not an arbitrary cutoff
franchise single season points scored - not an arbitrary cutoff
consecutive +30 point triple-doubles - not really an arbitrary cutoff, it's a stats used forever
first ever +33/+9 /+9 season - I guess one could argue that's an arbitrary cutoff but that's his numbers this season

So much so for the claim that I used "a lot of arbitrary cutoffs".

You could cherry pick just as many stats for Jokic though.

- BPM leader
- VORP leader
- Highest offensive win share rating
- Second highest defensive win share rating (behind DPOY Gobert)
- Win shares leader overall
- PER leader
- First among all centers in APG
- 4th in total points generated from screen assists (relevant if you're going to use assists as an argument)
- Equal 7th in deflections per game (relevant if you're going to use steals as an argument)
- First player to record three consecutive games of at least 14 rebounds and 14 assists
- Youngest player in history to record 13k points, 6k rebounds and 4k assists
- Only player to record 10+ triple doubles in seven consecutive seasons
- Second player in NBA history to record multiple triple doubles without missing a shot (after Wilt)

Etc etc

You just can't mount a data-based argument that Doncic has been more valuable than Jokic this season, or that he has contributed to winning more.

[AleksandarN]

These are a lot of arbitrary cutoffs you're using and I'm sure Jokic would look just as if not more impressive if you did the same for him. Fact of the matter is, his overall numbers look better in terms of basic and advanced stats, he's led a better team, and his impact profile is better.

Jokic is the better player on the better team, and he doesn't have a teammate as good as Kyrie Irving. Just using historical MVP criteria and precedence, Jokic is clearly the MVP. Shai has a better case just because he led the #1 seed. Luka didn't separate himself from the rest of the field to warrant winning an MVP as a 5 seed.

I am using "a lot of arbitrary cutoffs" Really? Like where exactly? Lets see what I wrote:

more total points scored - not an arbitrary cutoff
PPG leader - not an arbitrary cutoff
second APG - not an arbitrary cutoff
more steals - not an arbitrary cutoff
RPG - not an arbitrary cutoff
ahead on EPM - not an arbitrary cutoff
ahead on DRIP - not an arbitrary cutoff
first among all guards in RPG - not an arbitrary cutoff
franchise single season points scored - not an arbitrary cutoff
consecutive +30 point triple-doubles - not really an arbitrary cutoff, it's a stats used forever
first ever +33/+9 /+9 season - I guess one could argue that's an arbitrary cutoff but that's his numbers this season

So much so for the claim that I used "a lot of arbitrary cutoffs".

You could cherry pick just as many stats for Jokic though.

- BPM leader
- VORP leader
- Highest offensive win share rating
- Second highest defensive win share rating (behind DPOY Gobert)
- Win shares leader overall
- PER leader
- First among all centers in APG
- 4th in total points generated from screen assists (relevant if you're going to use assists as an argument)
- Equal 7th in deflections per game (relevant if you're going to use steals as an argument)
- First player to record three consecutive games of at least 14 rebounds and 14 assists
- Youngest player in history to record 13k points, 6k rebounds and 4k assists
- Only player to record 10+ triple doubles in seven consecutive seasons
- Second player in NBA history to record multiple triple doubles without missing a shot (after Wilt)

Etc etc

You just can't mount a data-based argument that Doncic has been more valuable than Jokic this season, or that he has contributed to winning more.

You could add a better turnover to assist ratio, less turnovers than Luka. Also add Jokic contributed to more win this season as well 9 game difference. We could go on.

[Papi_swav]

Brunson should be a candidate as well. It's going to be a 3 way tossup between Luka, SGA and Brunson

[Jurassic_Park]

Brunson should be a candidate as well. It's going to be a 3 way tossup between Luka, SGA and Brunson

3 way toss up for what? Who finishes 2nd?

Jokic already won the award… he is 1.01x to win. $100 bet wins $1

[AleksandarN]

We can add this if needed considering what stats are brought up for Luka. I truly think Jokic is the most valuable player to his team and their chances of winning a championship.

Read on Twitter

[Oscar9992]

The last 2 games showed how crucial & important Luka & Kyrie are to Mavericks. They aren't competetive without them at all.

[QPR]

I mean most teams would probably not be competitive if you took out their two best players, especially ones with high usage.

[kazyv]

i don't get the point of arguing for luka. who wants to see a westbrook style MVP for their guy? 46 wins on the season? come on

[losmi]

These are a lot of arbitrary cutoffs you're using and I'm sure Jokic would look just as if not more impressive if you did the same for him. Fact of the matter is, his overall numbers look better in terms of basic and advanced stats, he's led a better team, and his impact profile is better.

Jokic is the better player on the better team, and he doesn't have a teammate as good as Kyrie Irving. Just using historical MVP criteria and precedence, Jokic is clearly the MVP. Shai has a better case just because he led the #1 seed. Luka didn't separate himself from the rest of the field to warrant winning an MVP as a 5 seed.

I am using "a lot of arbitrary cutoffs" Really? Like where exactly? Lets see what I wrote:

more total points scored - not an arbitrary cutoff
PPG leader - not an arbitrary cutoff
second APG - not an arbitrary cutoff
more steals - not an arbitrary cutoff
RPG - not an arbitrary cutoff
ahead on EPM - not an arbitrary cutoff
ahead on DRIP - not an arbitrary cutoff
first among all guards in RPG - not an arbitrary cutoff
franchise single season points scored - not an arbitrary cutoff
consecutive +30 point triple-doubles - not really an arbitrary cutoff, it's a stats used forever
first ever +33/+9 /+9 season - I guess one could argue that's an arbitrary cutoff but that's his numbers this season

So much so for the claim that I used "a lot of arbitrary cutoffs".

You could cherry pick just as many stats for Jokic though.

- BPM leader
- VORP leader
- Highest offensive win share rating
- Second highest defensive win share rating (behind DPOY Gobert)
- Win shares leader overall
- PER leader
- First among all centers in APG
- 4th in total points generated from screen assists (relevant if you're going to use assists as an argument)
- Equal 7th in deflections per game (relevant if you're going to use steals as an argument)
- First player to record three consecutive games of at least 14 rebounds and 14 assists
- Youngest player in history to record 13k points, 6k rebounds and 4k assists
- Only player to record 10+ triple doubles in seven consecutive seasons
- Second player in NBA history to record multiple triple doubles without missing a shot (after Wilt)

Etc etc

You just can't mount a data-based argument that Doncic has been more valuable than Jokic this season, or that he has contributed to winning more.

This is an excellent example of how Jokic's impact on offense goes far beyond even his amazing boxscore stats.

Jokic generates 10.0 screen assists pts per game.

Luka? 0.4

A massive difference. As already said in earlier iterations of this thread, Luka is barely doing anything off-ball.

[hagredionis]

A center having more screen assists than a pg is now an argument for MVP. Gotta love this thread lol