2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 4: Who is the MVP?)

[Mavrelous]

I switch my vote to Jokic

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[f4p]

Based on historical patterns and how amazing Shai and the thunder have been, he should get it. But jokic being top 3 in 4 of the main 5 box score stats is just hard to comprehend. And that won't be an MVP season.

[Ssj16]

It's crazy, either that title was a fluke based on weak path or the supporting cast is good enough. Most Jokic fans on this board won't acknowledge that point.

Many teams would be trash without their best player haha. I don't think OKC is a 50 win team without Shai. Imagine the Bucks without Giannis! Look at the Spurs without Wemby. What would Detroit be without Cade? The warriors without Steph (we've seen that and it was a disaster), the Twolves without Edwards? I think many Jokic fans here exclusively watch Denver, and don't realize that the wheels fall off most teams without their star player. They post these ridiculous net rating stats etc and say they are a 60 win team with Jokic (not true and has never been, unlike a young Lebron for example) and a 17 win team without him, which is laughable.

Obviously most teams would be much worse without their star player. That's not the argument here. You're moving the goal-posts. I'm saying that OKC without Shai is still a Playoff team. Certainly not the #1 Seed and probably not even a top-4 Seed, but still a Playoff team in the West nonetheless. Without Jokic, Denver would be a lottery team. Therefore, he is more valuable to his team success. This is a pretty cut and dry argument. Joker is not only the best player in the world, but he is also more valuable to his team for this reason. Without him, Denver would be a worse team than OKC would be without Shai.

I've also already conceded that Shai is going to win the MVP because of the "best player on the best team" narrative that largely rules the NBA MVP Award Voting system, and he's had an incredible season in his own right and definitely deserves his flowers as well. Two things can be true at once.

Having a worse supporting cast is only a good argument if the results are remotely close when said player is on the floor. Yeah, Denver would be a lottery team without Jokic. With him they have almost zero chance to win the title and are closer to being the 3rd worst team in the West than they are to the Thunder. Yeah, the Thunder would make the playoffs without SGA. With him, they're THE MOST DOMINANT TEAM IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA.

SGA leads the league in EPM, he's played 7 more games, he's leading the best team in the history of the NBA and he also has the biggest difference between 1st and 2nd ever on a team in plus/minus. His team has lost 1 more game all season than Jokic has missed. He's had a perfect season. Joker hasn't if for no other reason that he's had trouble staying on the floor.

You should highlight this with the fact they are this dominant in the regular season. Also OKC has an amazing team with great scheming just like Boston did last year as they has amazing metrics but this doesn't make their stars necessarily better than Jokic, I believe in both instances you have to applaud how well those teams were built almost as much as the individual success of their stars.

Also, even though I have Shai as the MVP, I still don't think he's surpassed Jokic as a better overall player. Shai would need several more years at this level plus a championship for me to consider that he's at that level.

But this is why the playoffs are going to be exciting. We will see what Shai and OKC are really made of.

[bbms]

Obviously most teams would be much worse without their star player. That's not the argument here. You're moving the goal-posts. I'm saying that OKC without Shai is still a Playoff team. Certainly not the #1 Seed and probably not even a top-4 Seed, but still a Playoff team in the West nonetheless. Without Jokic, Denver would be a lottery team. Therefore, he is more valuable to his team success. This is a pretty cut and dry argument. Joker is not only the best player in the world, but he is also more valuable to his team for this reason. Without him, Denver would be a worse team than OKC would be without Shai.

I've also already conceded that Shai is going to win the MVP because of the "best player on the best team" narrative that largely rules the NBA MVP Award Voting system, and he's had an incredible season in his own right and definitely deserves his flowers as well. Two things can be true at once.

Having a worse supporting cast is only a good argument if the results are remotely close when said player is on the floor. Yeah, Denver would be a lottery team without Jokic. With him they have almost zero chance to win the title and are closer to being the 3rd worst team in the West than they are to the Thunder. Yeah, the Thunder would make the playoffs without SGA. With him, they're THE MOST DOMINANT TEAM IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA.

SGA leads the league in EPM, he's played 7 more games, he's leading the best team in the history of the NBA and he also has the biggest difference between 1st and 2nd ever on a team in plus/minus. His team has lost 1 more game all season than Jokic has missed. He's had a perfect season. Joker hasn't if for no other reason that he's had trouble staying on the floor.

You should highlight this with the fact they are this dominant in the regular season. Also OKC has an amazing team with great scheming just like Boston did last year as they has amazing metrics but this doesn't make their stars necessarily better than Jokic, I believe in both instances you have to applaud how well those teams were built almost as much as the individual success of their stars.

Also, even though I have Shai as the MVP, I still don't think he's surpassed Jokic as a better overall player. Shai would need several more years at this level plus a championship for me to consider that he's at that level.

But this is why the playoffs are going to be exciting. We will see what Shai and OKC are really made of.

i agree

there's some tension in thunder sub but im very excited

[guynumber45]

Having a worse supporting cast is only a good argument if the results are remotely close when said player is on the floor. Yeah, Denver would be a lottery team without Jokic. With him they have almost zero chance to win the title and are closer to being the 3rd worst team in the West than they are to the Thunder. Yeah, the Thunder would make the playoffs without SGA. With him, they're THE MOST DOMINANT TEAM IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA.

SGA leads the league in EPM, he's played 7 more games, he's leading the best team in the history of the NBA and he also has the biggest difference between 1st and 2nd ever on a team in plus/minus. His team has lost 1 more game all season than Jokic has missed. He's had a perfect season. Joker hasn't if for no other reason that he's had trouble staying on the floor.

You should highlight this with the fact they are this dominant in the regular season. Also OKC has an amazing team with great scheming just like Boston did last year as they has amazing metrics but this doesn't make their stars necessarily better than Jokic, I believe in both instances you have to applaud how well those teams were built almost as much as the individual success of their stars.

Also, even though I have Shai as the MVP, I still don't think he's surpassed Jokic as a better overall player. Shai would need several more years at this level plus a championship for me to consider that he's at that level.

But this is why the playoffs are going to be exciting. We will see what Shai and OKC are really made of.

i agree

there's some tension in thunder sub but im very excited

I think you guys are gonna absolutely crush the West. I remember the same people who are currently hyping up the Warriors and Lakers today were hyping them up in 2023 over the Nuggets talking about the "championship pedigree" would carry them over the inexperienced Nuggets, only to get crushed. I think you guys are gonna do something very similar.

[bbms]

You should highlight this with the fact they are this dominant in the regular season. Also OKC has an amazing team with great scheming just like Boston did last year as they has amazing metrics but this doesn't make their stars necessarily better than Jokic, I believe in both instances you have to applaud how well those teams were built almost as much as the individual success of their stars.

Also, even though I have Shai as the MVP, I still don't think he's surpassed Jokic as a better overall player. Shai would need several more years at this level plus a championship for me to consider that he's at that level.

But this is why the playoffs are going to be exciting. We will see what Shai and OKC are really made of.

i agree

there's some tension in thunder sub but im very excited

I think you guys are gonna absolutely crush the West. I remember the same people who are currently hyping up the Warriors and Lakers today were hyping them up in 2023 over the Nuggets talking about the "championship pedigree" would carry them over the inexperienced Nuggets, only to get crushed. I think you guys are gonna do something very similar.

tbh i feel okc, the thunder fans world wide and sam presti deserve this. a lot. after the durant ****, all of the ricochet shots taken from the westbrook hate (a fan favorite), i've never seen such a strong reaction to a team "tanking" (with like 2 seasons of being ****, nothing more!) and now this bizarre sga hate and bull.

i won't say it. but thunder fans do deserve a complete playoff experience after 13 years. at least.

[slick_watts]

This those who think Jokic is a terrible defender. (Money talks)

Espn just came out with an article helping explain Jokic unconventional ways of defensive impact. It’s a great read. Here is a little exert

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/44346405/nikola-jokic-quietly-league-analytics-defender

"A lot of times on out-of-bounds plays, he'll literally move you into the spot. He does it every single game. [Viewers] may not see it, and it might be subtle, but he moves you into your spot," wing Christian Braun told ESPN. "He's going to look at you and tell you, 'Hey, this is what's coming; this was their call.' You'll see him looking at the other coach to hear their call. He knows what's coming and knows the best way to guard it."

Added Nuggets forward Peyton Watson: "I haven't seen him be wrong [when calling out a play]," he told ESPN. "Dude's on another level intellectually with the game. ... So we'll be waiting on the day when he's wrong."

Jokic's memory bank as a defender is robust, according to Nuggets assistant coach Popeye Jones. "If a team tries to go back to [the exact same out-of-bounds play] the next year, he'll still remember it," Jones told ESPN.

this article is one of the worst pieces i've ever read on espn. it's trying to fluff up jokic's defense even though the nuggets are 21st in the league (and worse with him in the game). it calls jokic an 'analytics darling' defensively, but only cites DBPM to justify this claim. DBPM is broken on defense, even its creator knows not to trust it. in fact, jokic's drop-off on defensive analytics is one of the few arguments you can make for SGA mvp over him.

they go to extreme lengths to mythologize mundane events like a kicked ball, turning it into some greg maddux-like ten dimensional chess strategy. oh, jokic knows what plays opponents run? so does almost ever superstar veteran who has been in the league according to their teammates at some point or another.

usually i don't care much about mvp race narratives but this article is just blatant propaganda. this article is short on facts and heavy on glaze.

[LeBronSpaghetti]

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[RRR3]

This thread is going to be so full of salt when SGA wins. Never seen so much whining about someone so deserving winning. Well maybe for LeBron back in the Heat days.

[AleksandarN]

This thread is going to be so full of salt when SGA wins. Never seen so much whining about someone so deserving winning. Well maybe for LeBron back in the Heat days.

Why would it be? The majority of fans conceded that SGA will win. All I see a lot of people praising Jokic very few are tearing down the other player SGA. Unlike the other side who tries to tear down Jokic to prop their guy. In the last 5 years we are used to this.

[BigGargamel]

This thread is going to be so full of salt when SGA wins. Never seen so much whining about someone so deserving winning. Well maybe for LeBron back in the Heat days.

Why would it be? The majority of fans conceded that SGA will win. All I see a lot of people praising Jokic very few are tearing down the other player SGA. Unlike the other side who tries to tear down Jokic to prop their guy. In the last 5 years we are used to this.

I recommend putting that guy on ignore. His sole purpose (2nd most posts in this thread) is to crap on Jokic and his "counting stats" with insults of a 13 year old. He adds nothing of value to the discussion. Pay him no mind.

I've been saying for over a month that SGA is the MVP. Doesn't mean Jokic isn't having a legendary season as well. The Nuggets as a team just aren't good enough for him to win it.

[RRR3]

Telling people that using outdated, heavily flawed stats like BPM to make the case for Jokic is wrong isn't trolling. I could easily argue you're trolling with your constant "Jokic is FAR better than SGA" comments, which is just blatantly false. It's really hard to say which one of them is better right now definitively, either is a great pick, if you think one is far ahead you're just being biased or trolling. I've never said SGA is far ahead, I'd personally think he's perhaps a smidge ahead based on regular season play alone (which is what the award is for) but it's not unreasonable to think Jokic is a tad better either. But far better? Ridiculous. Most of the frustration coming from the SGA advocates in this thread is people keep talking about him as if he's having a Luka Doncic level season rather than a Michael Jordan level one in terms of impact data. I guess people will eventually catch on to how legendary he is if he wins a ring, same thing happened with Jokic and Giannis.

[AleksandarN]

Telling people that using outdated, heavily flawed stats like BPM to make the case for Jokic is wrong isn't trolling. I could easily argue you're trolling with your constant "Jokic is FAR better than SGA" comments, which is just blatantly false. It's really hard to say which one of them is better right now definitively, either is a great pick, if you think one is far ahead you're just being biased or trolling. I've never said SGA is far ahead, I'd personally think he's perhaps a smidge ahead based on regular season play alone (which is what the award is for) but it's not unreasonable to think Jokic is a tad better either. But far better? Ridiculous. Most of the frustration coming from the SGA advocates in this thread is people keep talking about him as if he's having a Luka Doncic level season rather than a Michael Jordan level one in terms of impact data. I guess people will eventually catch on to how legendary he is if he wins a ring, same thing happened with Jokic and Giannis.

When did I say “Jokic was far better than SGA” in the mvp race? I like how you are blatantly lying. As a matter of fact I have praised SGA numerous times and said he will win MVP. Heck I get criticism for calling out jokic last year in the playoffs. Now I am trolling lmao

[RRR3]

Telling people that using outdated, heavily flawed stats like BPM to make the case for Jokic is wrong isn't trolling. I could easily argue you're trolling with your constant "Jokic is FAR better than SGA" comments, which is just blatantly false. It's really hard to say which one of them is better right now definitively, either is a great pick, if you think one is far ahead you're just being biased or trolling. I've never said SGA is far ahead, I'd personally think he's perhaps a smidge ahead based on regular season play alone (which is what the award is for) but it's not unreasonable to think Jokic is a tad better either. But far better? Ridiculous. Most of the frustration coming from the SGA advocates in this thread is people keep talking about him as if he's having a Luka Doncic level season rather than a Michael Jordan level one in terms of impact data. I guess people will eventually catch on to how legendary he is if he wins a ring, same thing happened with Jokic and Giannis.

When did I say “Jokic was far better than SGA” in the mvp race? I like how you are blatantly lying. As a matter of fact I have praised SGA numerous times and said he will win MVP. Heck I get criticism for calling out jokic last year in the playoffs. Now I am trolling lmao

Not you, sorry, that was in response to BigGargamel. Should have quoted him. I don't really have a problem with what you said too much off the top of my head. My apologies for it coming off like I was replying to you.

[scrabbarista]

Based on historical patterns and how amazing Shai and the thunder have been, he should get it. But jokic being top 3 in 4 of the main 5 box score stats is just hard to comprehend. And that won't be an MVP season.

There is no pattern for what Jokic has done.

Maybe that should be the MVP.

[Castle Black]

The frustration of playing with scrub teammates is finally starting to get to Jokic (and rightfully so). Their Front Office has failed him mightily.

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[kazyv]

This thread is going to be so full of salt when SGA wins. Never seen so much whining about someone so deserving winning. Well maybe for LeBron back in the Heat days.

Why would it be? The majority of fans conceded that SGA will win. All I see a lot of people praising Jokic very few are tearing down the other player SGA. Unlike the other side who tries to tear down Jokic to prop their guy. In the last 5 years we are used to this.

Have you been reading some other forum or something? We are 4 threads in and half the time people are making an argument for jokic they tearing down HIS OWN TEAMMATES. The other half is some semi troll attempt of "SGA will win, but Jokic is clealy the best player". like get real.

Sure, there's some "buT mY dEfEnSe" arguments from time to time, kneejerking to some game clips and that unfairly malign Jokic, bringing up opponent % at the basket etc like that's the end all be all.

Jokic can certainly be a positive on defense, as he has shown in 23 when they won. But you have to be real when evaluating the season, not just some "potential greatness" or whatever. As has been said the nuggets season simply isn't that great. On defense, Jokic is certainly part of it, he can't just rest on some previous season's results.

this article is one of the worst pieces i've ever read on espn. it's trying to fluff up jokic's defense even though the nuggets are 21st in the league (and worse with him in the game). it calls jokic an 'analytics darling' defensively, but only cites DBPM to justify this claim. DBPM is broken on defense, even its creator knows not to trust it. in fact, jokic's drop-off on defensive analytics is one of the few arguments you can make for SGA mvp over him.

[SpurNani]

https://youtu.be/y9g3vZnL5Dw?si=RbQu4TqNK-8z4GDX

Podziemskis highlights vs Denver. Jokic doesn't even contest shots. I'm sorry, no amount of advanced stats will ever convince me this guy is a good defender. I almost don't blame him because he carries such a huge load on offense but yeah he plays lazy defense and easy concedes buckets.

[BigGargamel]

https://youtu.be/y9g3vZnL5Dw?si=RbQu4TqNK-8z4GDX

Podziemskis highlights vs Denver. Jokic doesn't even contest shots. I'm sorry, no amount of advanced stats will ever convince me this guy is a good defender. I almost don't blame him because he carries such a huge load on offense but yeah he plays lazy defense and easy concedes buckets.

I can just speak for me personally. I don't think he's a "bad" defender but I don't think I've ever called him "good."

Again, it's going to seem like I'm defending the guy at all costs, but the burden he has to carry on offense so heavily contributes to him giving up easy baskets on occasion on defense. He knows he can't afford to pick up cheap fouls that will take him off the court. And, I'm sure being such a hub on offense would tire anyone out. He's still a 300 pound guy.

He plays passing lanes well and does what he can. He's an average defender. Not a shot blocker, but does things well. I give him a pass on conceding baskets because he's too important to not be on the floor. He's in the game because of his offense. Obviously. I can't think of another player in the modern era who is so important to his team on the offensive end of the floor. Any defense he's able to give is just a bonus.

Again, not trying to make excuses. He's an almost perfect offensive player, and he's gotten a lot better on defense. But he'll never be a "good" defender and I've never claimed him to be.

Aaron Gordon not being right all season really jacked up Denver's defensive potential this year. The roster is so shallow that there really is no way to make up for things when a key starter is injured all season.

[Castle Black]

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