2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3)

[basketballRob]

Cade is going to be good, just not sure how he's currently ahead of Franz in the rookie rankings. Franz is ahead in TS and 3pt shooting for all rookies that play over 25 mpg.

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[Merc_Porto]

Mobley is special!

[PLT]

Evan Mobley - 15 Pts, 15 Reb, 2 Ast, 1 Blk｜Cleveland Cavaliers vs Sacramento Kings｜2021.12.11

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[reanimator]

Cade is going to be good, just not sure how he's currently ahead of Franz in the rookie rankings. Franz is ahead in TS and 3pt shooting for all rookies that play over 25 mpg.

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I wouldn't contest if anyone had Franz ahead as I might myself, but they play two totally different roles on offense and have differing levels of talent around them.

[basketballRob]

Cade is going to be good, just not sure how he's currently ahead of Franz in the rookie rankings. Franz is ahead in TS and 3pt shooting for all rookies that play over 25 mpg.

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I wouldn't contest if anyone had Franz ahead as I might myself, but they play two totally different roles on offense and have differing levels of talent around them.

Yeah, I'd love to see them give Franz the same usage as Cade.

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[reanimator]

Cade is going to be good, just not sure how he's currently ahead of Franz in the rookie rankings. Franz is ahead in TS and 3pt shooting for all rookies that play over 25 mpg.

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I wouldn't contest if anyone had Franz ahead as I might myself, but they play two totally different roles on offense and have differing levels of talent around them.

Yeah, I'd love to see them give Franz the same usage as Cade.

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Its not just usage. Cade is creating way more for himself and others with probably the worse roster in the league.

[Vampirate]

Cade is going to be good, just not sure how he's currently ahead of Franz in the rookie rankings. Franz is ahead in TS and 3pt shooting for all rookies that play over 25 mpg.

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I'm not knocking on the guy, Franz has clearly been playing better as of late.

However I still have Barnes ahead of him, for a guy that is 6"10 Franz is not a good rebounder.

I'd rank the rookies as of now

Mobley (his defense is the main reason he's here and the rest of his game isn't bad enough to be put lower than #1)
Barnes (a stat machine but not good enough defensively/offensively thus far to be put #1)
Franz (thus far the best shooter in the class, not as good a rebounder as the top 2 and not good enough as an overall scorer to make the top 2 imo)
Giddey (very poor shooting, he makes the top 5 because of his passing ability)
Sengun (need to see sample size with minutes closer to 30, but loads of promise, could easily move up if given starter minutes)

Cade can enter the top 5 but he seriously needs to go on a long scoring hot streak. 21 points looks good but not on 20 shots.

[zaymon]

Cade is going to be good, just not sure how he's currently ahead of Franz in the rookie rankings. Franz is ahead in TS and 3pt shooting for all rookies that play over 25 mpg.

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I wouldn't contest if anyone had Franz ahead as I might myself, but they play two totally different roles on offense and have differing levels of talent around them.

They both handle the ball a lot in pick and rolls for rookies. I agree role is underestimated aspect of evaluating players. Wagner and Mitchell are actually only rookies who handle the ball with good results. If people paid attention to creation burden Wagner would be in heavy conversation for ROY right now.

[Gasolina]

Cade is going to be good, just not sure how he's currently ahead of Franz in the rookie rankings. Franz is ahead in TS and 3pt shooting for all rookies that play over 25 mpg.

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I wouldn't contest if anyone had Franz ahead as I might myself, but they play two totally different roles on offense and have differing levels of talent around them.

They both handle the ball a lot in pick and rolls for rookies. I agree role is underestimated aspect of evaluating players. Wagner and Mitchell are actually only rookies who handle the ball with good results. If people paid attention to creation burden Wagner would be in heavy conversation for ROY right now.

I agree. It’s a three man race right now with Mobley, Barnes and Wagner. Wagner looks very polished and plays impactful basketball on both ends. He still can’t use his size as effectively as Barnes to get to his spots within the arc, but I have full confidence he will be learning how to do that by the end of the year.

Wagner keeps playing like this and he could be a very deserving RotY recipient.

[reanimator]

Cade is going to be good, just not sure how he's currently ahead of Franz in the rookie rankings. Franz is ahead in TS and 3pt shooting for all rookies that play over 25 mpg.

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I wouldn't contest if anyone had Franz ahead as I might myself, but they play two totally different roles on offense and have differing levels of talent around them.

They both handle the ball a lot in pick and rolls for rookies. I agree role is underestimated aspect of evaluating players. Wagner and Mitchell are actually only rookies who handle the ball with good results. If people paid attention to creation burden Wagner would be in heavy conversation for ROY right now.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/scoring/?sort=PCT_UAST_FGM&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerExperience=Rookie&CF=GP*G*19

This is what I'm using for reference. Wagner definitely creates for himself and others but the burden to do so isn't the same as Cade largely due to roster make up. Mitchell, Giddey, Cade, Barnes are in their own tier when it comes to self creation. Once again, this isn't to say Wagner shouldn't be ahead on any ranking but simply posting TS without any context to role and team composition isn't really hammering home that argument.

[zaymon]

I wouldn't contest if anyone had Franz ahead as I might myself, but they play two totally different roles on offense and have differing levels of talent around them.

They both handle the ball a lot in pick and rolls for rookies. I agree role is underestimated aspect of evaluating players. Wagner and Mitchell are actually only rookies who handle the ball with good results. If people paid attention to creation burden Wagner would be in heavy conversation for ROY right now.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/scoring/?sort=PCT_UAST_FGM&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerExperience=Rookie&CF=GP*G*19

This is what I'm using for reference. Wagner definitely creates for himself and others but the burden to do so isn't the same as Cade largely due to roster make up. Mitchell, Giddey, Cade, Barnes are in their own tier when it comes to self creation. Once again, this isn't to say Wagner shouldn't be ahead on any ranking but simply posting TS without any context to role and team composition isn't really hammering home that argument.

Wagner is capable of creating more but he is very high iq players, reading the game and reacting accordingly. He just wont force bad looks for himself but will move the ball. He also constantly moves without the ball, positioning himself for cuts and spot ups. In your evaluation that could look like negative but in reality its as much valueable as self creation or even more. I dont like current roy conversation becouse its not very nuanced.

[basketballRob]

Cade is going to be good, just not sure how he's currently ahead of Franz in the rookie rankings. Franz is ahead in TS and 3pt shooting for all rookies that play over 25 mpg.

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I'm not knocking on the guy, Franz has clearly been playing better as of late.

However I still have Barnes ahead of him, for a guy that is 6"10 Franz is not a good rebounder.

I'd rank the rookies as of now

Mobley (his defense is the main reason he's here and the rest of his game isn't bad enough to be put lower than #1)
Barnes (a stat machine but not good enough defensively/offensively thus far to be put #1)
Franz (thus far the best shooter in the class, not as good a rebounder as the top 2 and not good enough as an overall scorer to make the top 2 imo)
Giddey (very poor shooting, he makes the top 5 because of his passing ability)
Sengun (need to see sample size with minutes closer to 30, but loads of promise, could easily move up if given starter minutes)

Cade can enter the top 5 but he seriously needs to go on a long scoring hot streak. 21 points looks good but not on 20 shots.

Franz has to compete for rebounds with two centers and one of the best rebounding point guards.



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[reanimator]

They both handle the ball a lot in pick and rolls for rookies. I agree role is underestimated aspect of evaluating players. Wagner and Mitchell are actually only rookies who handle the ball with good results. If people paid attention to creation burden Wagner would be in heavy conversation for ROY right now.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/scoring/?sort=PCT_UAST_FGM&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerExperience=Rookie&CF=GP*G*19

This is what I'm using for reference. Wagner definitely creates for himself and others but the burden to do so isn't the same as Cade largely due to roster make up. Mitchell, Giddey, Cade, Barnes are in their own tier when it comes to self creation. Once again, this isn't to say Wagner shouldn't be ahead on any ranking but simply posting TS without any context to role and team composition isn't really hammering home that argument.

Wagner is capable of creating more but he is very high iq players, reading the game and reacting accordingly. He just wont force bad looks for himself but will move the ball. He also constantly moves without the ball, positioning himself for cuts and spot ups. In your evaluation that could look like negative but in reality its as much valueable as self creation or even more. I dont like current roy conversation becouse its not very nuanced.

I'm a Michigan fan and am very familiar with his game. Wagner is excelling in his role, but I don't think you're getting my point. He has the luxury to move the ball and to work offball. This is a good thing and he should be praised for his play and versatility, but its disingenuous to pretend role/roster don't play into statistical outcomes and its just a talent thing. Up Wagner's PnR and ISO possessions and surround him with Killian Hayes/Saddiq Bey/Isaiah Stewart or conversely give Cade Bamba/WCJ and Cole and end up with different outcomes. With Grant out now, I personally don't have Cade in the race as its about to get even rougher but it isn't a talent or "high iq" thing.

[Vampirate]

Cade is going to be good, just not sure how he's currently ahead of Franz in the rookie rankings. Franz is ahead in TS and 3pt shooting for all rookies that play over 25 mpg.

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I'm not knocking on the guy, Franz has clearly been playing better as of late.

However I still have Barnes ahead of him, for a guy that is 6"10 Franz is not a good rebounder.

I'd rank the rookies as of now

Mobley (his defense is the main reason he's here and the rest of his game isn't bad enough to be put lower than #1)
Barnes (a stat machine but not good enough defensively/offensively thus far to be put #1)
Franz (thus far the best shooter in the class, not as good a rebounder as the top 2 and not good enough as an overall scorer to make the top 2 imo)
Giddey (very poor shooting, he makes the top 5 because of his passing ability)
Sengun (need to see sample size with minutes closer to 30, but loads of promise, could easily move up if given starter minutes)

Cade can enter the top 5 but he seriously needs to go on a long scoring hot streak. 21 points looks good but not on 20 shots.

Franz has to compete for rebounds with two centers and one of the best rebounding point guards.



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The Raptors are actually a better rebounding team than Orlando despite not even really having a center and Barnes is a major reason why.

The Raptors are tied with the Timberwolves for the best offensive rebounding team in the league and Barnes is a major reason why.

Barnes is simply a much better rebounder than Franz.

[basketballRob]

I'm not knocking on the guy, Franz has clearly been playing better as of late.

However I still have Barnes ahead of him, for a guy that is 6"10 Franz is not a good rebounder.

I'd rank the rookies as of now

Mobley (his defense is the main reason he's here and the rest of his game isn't bad enough to be put lower than #1)
Barnes (a stat machine but not good enough defensively/offensively thus far to be put #1)
Franz (thus far the best shooter in the class, not as good a rebounder as the top 2 and not good enough as an overall scorer to make the top 2 imo)
Giddey (very poor shooting, he makes the top 5 because of his passing ability)
Sengun (need to see sample size with minutes closer to 30, but loads of promise, could easily move up if given starter minutes)

Cade can enter the top 5 but he seriously needs to go on a long scoring hot streak. 21 points looks good but not on 20 shots.

Franz has to compete for rebounds with two centers and one of the best rebounding point guards.



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The Raptors are actually a better rebounding team than Orlando despite not even really having a center and Barnes is a major reason why.

The Raptors are tied with the Timberwolves for the best offensive rebounding team in the league and Barnes is a major reason why.

Barnes is simply a much better rebounder than Franz.

Toronto is 19th and Orlando is 20th in rebounding. Orlando's bench is the main reason why they don't rebound. Plus Franz is more of a guard than Barnes. I just can't see Barnes chasing guards around all game like Franz can.

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[JonFromVA]

I think it's Mobley but this is a terrible comparison. Barnes and Cade are better than Derrick williams in every way.
See, it's not just the Raptors' fans that feel the need to dump on other rookies.

I was just trying replicate Raptors fans. Toxic community.

The only toxic community are the Mobley nuthuggers, acting like he's Jesus and he's 10 tiers over everyone else.
Mind you, I'm not talking about the entire Cavs fan base here, most of them are legit down to earth knowledgeable guys.

Scottie Barnes is averaging 15.7 ppg 8.3 rpg 3.2 apg 1.7 ste 1.8 blks 49% FG and 2 3's made per game in his last two weeks.

He's not slowing down from his torrid start, he's getting better.

This is a notorious raw stats heavy award. If team record was a factor(it isn't even that much of a difference, 15-12 vs 12-14), I'll give you just an example if you claim to be a Cavs fan. Melo should've been ROY over Lebron since their stats were not that far apart and Melo made the playoffs and Lebron didn't.

The award is given based on stats. And the stats are ABSOLUTELY close. One bad strech or an injury for one or the other and the award could be lost.

So just shut it and enjoy and absolutely wonderful rookie class.

Most seemed to like Melo's stats over James and Melo clearly joined the better team. If Melo was contributing to winning and playing defense things might had gone his way?

In other words Mobley's ridiculous defensive impact might change some voters minds about what they value in a rook, but until that happens?

Putting up 20ppg may get it done if one of the rooks can get there.

Finally without getting fancy and going beyond the box score Mobley's lead in BPM is pretty significant and I'm curious exactly why given so many are convinced that Scottie is dominating in the box. Presumably rebounds and blocks have major weight attached.

Whether voters notice is obviously another matter, but LeBron also enjoyed a big lead over Melo in BPM as rooks.

[Vampirate]

Franz has to compete for rebounds with two centers and one of the best rebounding point guards.



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The Raptors are actually a better rebounding team than Orlando despite not even really having a center and Barnes is a major reason why.

The Raptors are tied with the Timberwolves for the best offensive rebounding team in the league and Barnes is a major reason why.

Barnes is simply a much better rebounder than Franz.

Toronto is 19th and Orlando is 20th in rebounding. Orlando's bench is the main reason why they don't rebound. Plus Franz is more of a guard than Barnes. I just can't see Barnes chasing guards around all game like Franz can.

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Thing is Franz is still 6"10, if he's going to enter the top 2 he needs to improve his rebounding. It really adds to their game.

If you are not unbiased, what are Wagners flaws that he really needs to work on the off season, his Achilles heal if you will.

At the moment, from what i've seen from the stats is aside from really needing to improve his rebounding, Franz takes 34.7% of his shots from 3-10 feet, a shot he's clearly not good at shooting at 39.6%.

His best weapon thus far is his 3 point shooting as he's shooting at a 39% clip.


Regardless I still have Barnes ahead because I think he's the better overall offensive player (scoring, midrange, playmaking and offensive rebounding), but not 3 point and free throw shooting.

Scottie Barnes biggest flaw is still his 3 point shot. He also can get better defensively and better from 10-16 feet (39.5% there).

[MotownMadness]

Cade is definitely the number 1 option with Grant out now. He already was becoming that but now he's really going to be taking alot of shots I would assume, hopefully efficiently.

[zaymon]

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/scoring/?sort=PCT_UAST_FGM&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerExperience=Rookie&CF=GP*G*19

This is what I'm using for reference. Wagner definitely creates for himself and others but the burden to do so isn't the same as Cade largely due to roster make up. Mitchell, Giddey, Cade, Barnes are in their own tier when it comes to self creation. Once again, this isn't to say Wagner shouldn't be ahead on any ranking but simply posting TS without any context to role and team composition isn't really hammering home that argument.

Wagner is capable of creating more but he is very high iq players, reading the game and reacting accordingly. He just wont force bad looks for himself but will move the ball. He also constantly moves without the ball, positioning himself for cuts and spot ups. In your evaluation that could look like negative but in reality its as much valueable as self creation or even more. I dont like current roy conversation becouse its not very nuanced.

I'm a Michigan fan and am very familiar with his game. Wagner is excelling in his role, but I don't think you're getting my point. He has the luxury to move the ball and to work offball. This is a good thing and he should be praised for his play and versatility, but its disingenuous to pretend role/roster don't play into statistical outcomes and its just a talent thing. Up Wagner's PnR and ISO possessions and surround him with Killian Hayes/Saddiq Bey/Isaiah Stewart or conversely give Cade Bamba/WCJ and Cole and end up with different outcomes. With Grant out now, I personally don't have Cade in the race as its about to get even rougher but it isn't a talent or "high iq" thing.

Orlando is 5-22 and lost against Pistons so i dont know about talent gap. We had a stretch without a point guard and even now we only have Cole Anthony who is a scorer and wont create much for others. Wagner is subbing early to act like lead ball handler with the second unit where he plays with propably worst bench in the nba right now.
Cunningham has propably the worst situation among rookies( or maybe Giddey) but Wagner is not far behind really. Maybe Fultz will change things after he returns.

[basketballRob]

The Raptors are actually a better rebounding team than Orlando despite not even really having a center and Barnes is a major reason why.

The Raptors are tied with the Timberwolves for the best offensive rebounding team in the league and Barnes is a major reason why.

Barnes is simply a much better rebounder than Franz.

Toronto is 19th and Orlando is 20th in rebounding. Orlando's bench is the main reason why they don't rebound. Plus Franz is more of a guard than Barnes. I just can't see Barnes chasing guards around all game like Franz can.

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Thing is Franz is still 6"10, if he's going to enter the top 2 he needs to improve his rebounding. It really adds to their game.

If you are not unbiased, what are Wagners flaws that he really needs to work on the off season, his Achilles heal if you will.

At the moment, from what i've seen from the stats is aside from really needing to improve his rebounding, Franz takes 34.7% of his shots from 3-10 feet, a shot he's clearly not good at shooting at 39.6%.

His best weapon thus far is his 3 point shooting as he's shooting at a 39% clip.


Regardless I still have Barnes ahead because I think he's the better overall offensive player (scoring, midrange, playmaking and offensive rebounding), but not 3 point and free throw shooting.

Scottie Barnes biggest flaw is still his 3 point shot. He also can get better defensively and better from 10-16 feet (39.5% there).

39.6% from 3-10' isn't bad, it's better than Giannis and a little less than Middleton.

I don't think Franz has to raise his rebounds to enter the top 2 at all. Barnes and Mobley are closer to being power forwards and Franz is a better perimeter shooter.

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