2022-23 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt.1)

[JWillTheFreak]

It may have not seemed like JT scored 15 on Luka because JT kept blowing past him and Luka wasn't in the zip code when Tatum scored lol. But Luka was still the primary defender on those possessions. He just didn't stay in front or in the play, really.

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Even if you count those coming of the screen and splitting the double team he only had 9 I believe... but I could be wrong.

I dunno. I'm too groggy to look it up myself but Forsberg (the tweeter) is a good reporter and his job is to look up stats like that so I'm assuming he has it right per the matchup data.

Tatum scores 15 on on lot of guys tho so it's not a big deal to argue about imo.

During the broadcast they mentioned Luka's defensive numbers are improved this year but he was pretty bad last night per my eyeballs. JT is a much better defender and he had a poor defensive game by his standards vs Chicago the other night himself. So it happens.

Tatum is a way better defender because he can actually move side to side while Luka cant... plus tatum actually puts effort into playing defense while luka only plays defense on certain plays...

[greekbuck34]

Those posts with the 4-5 possessions in 2 minutes of one regular season game need to stop. Doesn't prove anything and most of the time there are not even pure 1v1 situations since double teams or other factors come in.

It reminds me of the 1000 Giannis stoppers I've seen over the years in random games.

[Archx]

If you think team record is the only factor in considering why Tatum should be mvp, then you haven't been paying attention. Luka ... big gap ... , did you watch last night?

It's not just in direct matchup Tatum Vs Doncic. Tatum has the luxury to rely on someone else for help, Luka has Wood when Kidd actually decides to give him any minutes from the bench.
Statistically, in order for Mavs to be good or win, Luka on average needs to score 37/8/8. He's already top in rebounds, passes, steals... And has to also play great defense. Those are prime MJ/Lebron levels of carrying.

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[Raonak]

Curry for #3

[CobraCommander]

If you think team record is the only factor in considering why Tatum should be mvp, then you haven't been paying attention. Luka ... big gap ... , did you watch last night?

It's not just in direct matchup Tatum Vs Doncic. Tatum has the luxury to rely on someone else for help, Luka has Wood when Kidd actually decides to give him any minutes from the bench.
Statistically, in order for Mavs to be good or win, Luka on average needs to score 37/8/8. He's already top in rebounds, passes, steals... And has to also play great defense. Those are prime MJ/Lebron levels of carrying.

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I think regardless of teammates, Tatum played better than Luka last game. Luka could win the mvp this year and Tatum could get finals mvp. If that happens, Tatum will leapfrog Luka on the pecking order in the minds of the fans.

[LessEyeTest]

If you think team record is the only factor in considering why Tatum should be mvp, then you haven't been paying attention. Luka ... big gap ... , did you watch last night?

It's not just in direct matchup Tatum Vs Doncic. Tatum has the luxury to rely on someone else for help, Luka has Wood when Kidd actually decides to give him any minutes from the bench.
Statistically, in order for Mavs to be good or win, Luka on average needs to score 37/8/8. He's already top in rebounds, passes, steals... And has to also play great defense. Those are prime MJ/Lebron levels of carrying.

Read on Twitter

I think regardless of teammates, Tatum played better than Luka last game. Luka could win the mvp this year and Tatum could get finals mvp. If that happens, Tatum will leapfrog Luka on the pecking order in the minds of the fans.

No. I don’t think anyone would view Tatum as the better player if he won Finals MVP. I certainly wouldn’t. Doncic is an elite floor raiser a la LeBron, whereas I feel like a heliocentric offense focused around Tatum would crater and the team would win 20-25.

[Archx]

I think regardless of teammates, Tatum played better than Luka last game. Luka could win the mvp this year and Tatum could get finals mvp. If that happens, Tatum will leapfrog Luka on the pecking order in the minds of the fans.

I don't mind if you think that way, i just look at it differently. Tatum did exactly what Boston expets from him and so did the rest of his team. JB was phenomenal, providing little bit of everything while the rest followed. Celtics are basically just continuing their mission from last year while being stronger and more experienced at the same time. I wouldn't be surprised if Tatum just relaxes in his role and cruises to the ring.

Mavs are in a totally different spot. Luka is one man army with a team that is playing way below their own level or ... they just can't climb to the expected level of last season for whatever reason.

If you switch Tatum and Luka, i'm 100% sure Luka would just focus on what's needed from him while Tatum would be also overwhelmed on the Mavs trying to do literally everything and more.

And i know you'll bring up defense. The difference between Tatum and Luka in % of defended shots is 2% in Tatum's favor. DRTG on NBA.com Tatum 112, Luka 111 and on BBALL, Luka 107, Tatum 112.... Luka leads Tatum in steals while Tatum is better in blocks.

Luka also scores and creates more points than Tatum. On average, Luka 22 created pts just from assists, Tatum only 13, so

Even if Tatum wins a ring, you'll probably have a hard time convincing non Celtics fans that he's the best player in the league or even better than Luka.
Funny thing is, Luka missed 2 easy layups at the rim and missed 4 FT's, if he made all of that he would end up with 50/8/9 on what, over 70% TS?.... and Mavs still wouldn't have enough to win.

Feel free to correct me if i made a mistake somewhere but that's just my opinion so don't take it as a fact, that's how i see it and it's a long way until the end of season, a lot can change.

[Saint Lazarus]

I blame Jokic and to a lesser extent, Westbrook, for the way these conversations go now.

The MVP used to go to the best player on the best (or second best) team. It rewarded fantastic individual performances in high stakes situations (e.g. regular season wins that had playoff seeding implications). Now we got guys arguing Steph as the MVP even though his team is below .500 or arguing that Luka should win the MVP precisely because his teammates suck ass.

[SpreeS]

I think regardless of teammates, Tatum played better than Luka last game. Luka could win the mvp this year and Tatum could get finals mvp. If that happens, Tatum will leapfrog Luka on the pecking order in the minds of the fans.

I don't mind if you think that way, i just look at it differently. Tatum did exactly what Boston expets from him and so did the rest of his team. JB was phenomenal, providing little bit of everything while the rest followed. Celtics are basically just continuing their mission from last year while being stronger and more experienced at the same time. I wouldn't be surprised if Tatum just relaxes in his role and cruises to the ring.

Mavs are in a totally different spot. Luka is one man army with a team that is playing way below their own level or ... they just can't climb to the expected level of last season for whatever reason.

If you switch Tatum and Luka, i'm 100% sure Luka would just focus on what's needed from him while Tatum would be also overwhelmed on the Mavs trying to do literally everything and more.

And i know you'll bring up defense. The difference between Tatum and Luka in % of defended shots is 2% in Tatum's favor. DRTG on NBA.com Tatum 112, Luka 111 and on BBALL, Luka 107, Tatum 112.... Luka leads Tatum in steals while Tatum is better in blocks.

Luka also scores and creates more points than Tatum. On average, Luka 22 created pts just from assists, Tatum only 13, so

Even if Tatum wins a ring, you'll probably have a hard time convincing non Celtics fans that he's the best player in the league or even better than Luka.
Funny thing is, Luka missed 2 easy layups at the rim and missed 4 FT's, if he made all of that he would end up with 50/8/9 on what, over 70% TS?.... and Mavs still wouldn't have enough to win.

Feel free to correct me if i made a mistake somewhere but that's just my opinion so don't take it as a fact, that's how i see it and it's a long way until the end of season, a lot can change.

All these stats lovers reach next level. Everything is evaluated through the prism of individual statistics. Luka style of play simply does not lead to victories.

For example 2Q w/o Doncic 6:40 min

DAL 17-19 BOS

Dinwiddie/Wood unit resisted very well against

Wiliams/Tatum/Hauser/White/Brogdon
Hortford/Tatum/Brown/White/Smart

Dinwiddie and Wood had 12pts on (4-7) and asisted on other two FGM. Doncic energy on defence and offence w/o ball was gone in second half. He rested on knees with hands couple time on offensive end and looked how teammates play. I dont talk about Doncic defence...Kidd/Doncic dont trust their team and for Doncic this is acceptable. He wants to be the man more than a team player.

[Bob8]

I think regardless of teammates, Tatum played better than Luka last game. Luka could win the mvp this year and Tatum could get finals mvp. If that happens, Tatum will leapfrog Luka on the pecking order in the minds of the fans.

I don't mind if you think that way, i just look at it differently. Tatum did exactly what Boston expets from him and so did the rest of his team. JB was phenomenal, providing little bit of everything while the rest followed. Celtics are basically just continuing their mission from last year while being stronger and more experienced at the same time. I wouldn't be surprised if Tatum just relaxes in his role and cruises to the ring.

Mavs are in a totally different spot. Luka is one man army with a team that is playing way below their own level or ... they just can't climb to the expected level of last season for whatever reason.

If you switch Tatum and Luka, i'm 100% sure Luka would just focus on what's needed from him while Tatum would be also overwhelmed on the Mavs trying to do literally everything and more.

And i know you'll bring up defense. The difference between Tatum and Luka in % of defended shots is 2% in Tatum's favor. DRTG on NBA.com Tatum 112, Luka 111 and on BBALL, Luka 107, Tatum 112.... Luka leads Tatum in steals while Tatum is better in blocks.

Luka also scores and creates more points than Tatum. On average, Luka 22 created pts just from assists, Tatum only 13, so

Even if Tatum wins a ring, you'll probably have a hard time convincing non Celtics fans that he's the best player in the league or even better than Luka.
Funny thing is, Luka missed 2 easy layups at the rim and missed 4 FT's, if he made all of that he would end up with 50/8/9 on what, over 70% TS?.... and Mavs still wouldn't have enough to win.

Feel free to correct me if i made a mistake somewhere but that's just my opinion so don't take it as a fact, that's how i see it and it's a long way until the end of season, a lot can change.

All these stats lovers reach next level. Everything is evaluated through the prism of individual statistics. Luka style of play simply does not lead to victories.

For example 2Q w/o Doncic 6:40 min

DAL 17-19 BOS

Dinwiddie/Wood unit resisted very well against

Wiliams/Tatum/Hauser/White/Brogdon
Hortford/Tatum/Brown/White/Smart

Dinwiddie and Wood had 12pts on (4-7) and asisted on other two FGM. Doncic energy on defence and offence w/o ball was gone in second half. He rested on knees with hands couple time on offensive end and looked how teammates play. I dont talk about Doncic defence...Kidd/Doncic dont trust their team and for Doncic this is acceptable. He wants to be the man more than a team player.

May I remind you that Dinwiddie's +/- was -23 in Boston and his on/off for the season is disastrous, -21.

Btw. Mavs were in WCF last year, listening to you I would believe that Luka's style of play is not enough even for play-in.

[SpreeS]

I don't mind if you think that way, i just look at it differently. Tatum did exactly what Boston expets from him and so did the rest of his team. JB was phenomenal, providing little bit of everything while the rest followed. Celtics are basically just continuing their mission from last year while being stronger and more experienced at the same time. I wouldn't be surprised if Tatum just relaxes in his role and cruises to the ring.

Mavs are in a totally different spot. Luka is one man army with a team that is playing way below their own level or ... they just can't climb to the expected level of last season for whatever reason.

If you switch Tatum and Luka, i'm 100% sure Luka would just focus on what's needed from him while Tatum would be also overwhelmed on the Mavs trying to do literally everything and more.

And i know you'll bring up defense. The difference between Tatum and Luka in % of defended shots is 2% in Tatum's favor. DRTG on NBA.com Tatum 112, Luka 111 and on BBALL, Luka 107, Tatum 112.... Luka leads Tatum in steals while Tatum is better in blocks.

Luka also scores and creates more points than Tatum. On average, Luka 22 created pts just from assists, Tatum only 13, so

Even if Tatum wins a ring, you'll probably have a hard time convincing non Celtics fans that he's the best player in the league or even better than Luka.
Funny thing is, Luka missed 2 easy layups at the rim and missed 4 FT's, if he made all of that he would end up with 50/8/9 on what, over 70% TS?.... and Mavs still wouldn't have enough to win.

Feel free to correct me if i made a mistake somewhere but that's just my opinion so don't take it as a fact, that's how i see it and it's a long way until the end of season, a lot can change.

All these stats lovers reach next level. Everything is evaluated through the prism of individual statistics. Luka style of play simply does not lead to victories.

For example 2Q w/o Doncic 6:40 min

DAL 17-19 BOS

Dinwiddie/Wood unit resisted very well against

Wiliams/Tatum/Hauser/White/Brogdon
Hortford/Tatum/Brown/White/Smart

Dinwiddie and Wood had 12pts on (4-7) and asisted on other two FGM. Doncic energy on defence and offence w/o ball was gone in second half. He rested on knees with hands couple time on offensive end and looked how teammates play. I dont talk about Doncic defence...Kidd/Doncic dont trust their team and for Doncic this is acceptable. He wants to be the man more than a team player.

May I remind you that Dinwiddie's +/- was -23 in Boston and his on/off for the season is disastrous, -21.

Btw. Mavs were in WCF last year, listening to you I would believe that Luka's style of play is not enough even for play-in.

Again you dont see whole picture

Din/Luka on 353min -7,12 netrtg
Din on Luka off 204min +0,37 netrtg

Whole DAL team w/o Luka is just fine

233min +1,22 netrtg

[Archx]

All these stats lovers reach next level. Everything is evaluated through the prism of individual statistics. Luka style of play simply does not lead to victories.

For example 2Q w/o Doncic 6:40 min

DAL 17-19 BOS

Dinwiddie/Wood unit resisted very well against

Wiliams/Tatum/Hauser/White/Brogdon
Hortford/Tatum/Brown/White/Smart

Dinwiddie and Wood had 12pts on (4-7) and asisted on other two FGM. Doncic energy on defence and offence w/o ball was gone in second half. He rested on knees with hands couple time on offensive end and looked how teammates play. I dont talk about Doncic defence...Kidd/Doncic dont trust their team and for Doncic this is acceptable. He wants to be the man more than a team player.

So for Curry it's fine to use stats etc.. But when you use it for other players, it's not?

Luka played almost ENTIRE 2nd half except last minute. Mavs WON the 2nd half. He and Wood brought the team back before THJ made some stupid plays and Bullock with his missed layups and offensive fouls derailed everything.

Mavs entire starting unit except for Luka is in huge RED numbers. According to your On/Off, THJ is Mavs best player with +7.7 and 46% TS? Holy **** what a take. You complain about Doncic's defense and playstyle, but Dinwiddie plays exactly the same when Doncic is on the bench and has On/Off of -21 for the year, yet you say Dinwiddie is fine for the Mavs and Luka is not?

Mavs without Luka are only fine when Wood and Green play because they play vs benches most of the time and they are very good. Fans want them to start because it makes sense and Kidd hinted that Wood will FINALLY start next game.
But again, if you keep saying Luka's defense is a problem and Mavs are just fine without him, you shouldn't discuss Mavs, you have no clue what you're talking about.

[WarriorGM]

I blame Jokic and to a lesser extent, Westbrook, for the way these conversations go now.

The MVP used to go to the best player on the best (or second best) team. It rewarded fantastic individual performances in high stakes situations (e.g. regular season wins that had playoff seeding implications). Now we got guys arguing Steph as the MVP even though his team is below .500 or arguing that Luka should win the MVP precisely because his teammates suck ass.

Are you writing off Curry from leading his team to a high seed just because of their current sub .500 record? I don't think any of the other currently mentioned candidates have led a team to a 61-win season much less the regular season wins record. If there is anyone who should be in the discussion despite his team's record it is Steph.

[SpreeS]

On/Off

Curry on 588min +9,28 off 329min -19,36
Jokic on 484min +12,15 off 385min -16,33

Morant on 496min +6,57 off 378min -7,98

Tatum on 670min +8,15 off 204min -0,59
Giannis on 461min +8,54 off 365min -1,77
Embiid on 425min +7,64 off 439min -2,76

Booker on 621min +7,68 off 200min +2,70
Doncic on 593min +4,47 off 233min +1,22
Durant on 693min +0,96 off 224min -2,50

Mitchell on 606min +7,97 off 285min +9,50
Lillard on 482min -1,03 off 387min +1,35

[Bob8]

All these stats lovers reach next level. Everything is evaluated through the prism of individual statistics. Luka style of play simply does not lead to victories.

For example 2Q w/o Doncic 6:40 min

DAL 17-19 BOS

Dinwiddie/Wood unit resisted very well against

Wiliams/Tatum/Hauser/White/Brogdon
Hortford/Tatum/Brown/White/Smart

Dinwiddie and Wood had 12pts on (4-7) and asisted on other two FGM. Doncic energy on defence and offence w/o ball was gone in second half. He rested on knees with hands couple time on offensive end and looked how teammates play. I dont talk about Doncic defence...Kidd/Doncic dont trust their team and for Doncic this is acceptable. He wants to be the man more than a team player.

May I remind you that Dinwiddie's +/- was -23 in Boston and his on/off for the season is disastrous, -21.

Btw. Mavs were in WCF last year, listening to you I would believe that Luka's style of play is not enough even for play-in.

Again you dont see whole picture

Din/Luka on 353min -7,12 netrtg
Din on Luka off 204min +0,37 netrtg

Whole DAL team w/o Luka is just fine

233min +1,22 netrtg

Luka +/- is +4. Dinwiddie +/- is -4.1. Knowing that they play a lot together, Dinwiddie's +/- is huge negative without Luka.

[SpreeS]

May I remind you that Dinwiddie's +/- was -23 in Boston and his on/off for the season is disastrous, -21.

Btw. Mavs were in WCF last year, listening to you I would believe that Luka's style of play is not enough even for play-in.

Again you dont see whole picture

Din/Luka on 353min -7,12 netrtg
Din on Luka off 204min +0,37 netrtg

Whole DAL team w/o Luka is just fine

233min +1,22 netrtg

Luka +/- is +4. Dinwiddie +/- is -4.1. Knowing that they play a lot together, Dinwiddie's +/- is huge negative without Luka.

and with these kind of expert's I need to have converation...

[Bob8]

Again you dont see whole picture

Din/Luka on 353min -7,12 netrtg
Din on Luka off 204min +0,37 netrtg

Whole DAL team w/o Luka is just fine

233min +1,22 netrtg

Luka +/- is +4. Dinwiddie +/- is -4.1. Knowing that they play a lot together, Dinwiddie's +/- is huge negative without Luka.

and with these kind of expert's I need to have converation...

If you're an expert than you know that all stats that you provided depend mostly on what kind of bench team have. Mavs have very bad starters without Luka, but bench with Wood is pretty solid. When Kidd decides to put Wood in the starting lineup, things will change dramatically.

[cam24thomas]

I blame Jokic and to a lesser extent, Westbrook, for the way these conversations go now.

The MVP used to go to the best player on the best (or second best) team. It rewarded fantastic individual performances in high stakes situations (e.g. regular season wins that had playoff seeding implications). Now we got guys arguing Steph as the MVP even though his team is below .500 or arguing that Luka should win the MVP precisely because his teammates suck ass.

Are you writing off Curry from leading his team to a high seed just because of their current sub .500 record? I don't think any of the other currently mentioned candidates have led a team to a 61-win season much less the regular season wins record. If there is anyone who should be in the discussion despite his team's record it is Steph.

I agree, plus the Warriors are 8-1 at home, and that's usually a good indicator.

[CharityStripe34]

I blame Jokic and to a lesser extent, Westbrook, for the way these conversations go now.

The MVP used to go to the best player on the best (or second best) team. It rewarded fantastic individual performances in high stakes situations (e.g. regular season wins that had playoff seeding implications). Now we got guys arguing Steph as the MVP even though his team is below .500 or arguing that Luka should win the MVP precisely because his teammates suck ass.

Are you writing off Curry from leading his team to a high seed just because of their current sub .500 record? I don't think any of the other currently mentioned candidates have led a team to a 61-win season much less the regular season wins record. If there is anyone who should be in the discussion despite his team's record it is Steph.

Maybe not 61, but the Bucks won 60 in 2019 and were on a 70-win pace (53-9) before the covid shutdown.

I do agree with the original point of both Jokic in 22 and Westbrook's 2017 sort of skewing the way voters view MVP seasons. Both guys had historic statistical seasons carrying subpar rosters to the playoffs. Jokic's was with historical levels of efficiency to boot. Curry in 21 nearly got the Warriors there were it not for the play-in.

[Woodsanity]

I blame Jokic and to a lesser extent, Westbrook, for the way these conversations go now.

The MVP used to go to the best player on the best (or second best) team. It rewarded fantastic individual performances in high stakes situations (e.g. regular season wins that had playoff seeding implications). Now we got guys arguing Steph as the MVP even though his team is below .500 or arguing that Luka should win the MVP precisely because his teammates suck ass.

First MVP Jokic won the Nuggets were 3rd in the West. You acting like Jokic was leading a below .500 team or borderline .500 team.

2nd MVP Jokic was missing his 2nd and 3rd best player and still had a way better record than .500.

Remove Draymond and Wiggins and the 8-9 Warriors record would be even more pathetic. Its not even a remotely good comparison.