NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

[GeorgeSears]

One of the reasons that Jayson Tatum is firmly in the MVP race is that he has taken advantage of nationally televised games and has outplayed his MVP counterpart.

He outplayed Giannis, Luka (2x), and Embiid and he's had some really impressive performances (comeback vs. lakers in OT). That's going to help sway voters. He's got some more nationally televised games lined up down the line. Combine that with his overall improved level of play, and the Celtics no.1 seed in the East. The question is will it be enough at the end to overcome Luka's statistical dominance and Jokic's presence in the race?

[Chessboxer]

It sucks that Giannis hasn't been able to play with the Bucks 2nd and 3rd best players this season, as the supporting cast has been abysmal, especially lately (yet somehow the Bucks still have the equal 2nd best record in the league). Giannis, Middleton, and Jrue have played a total of 69 minutes together this season.

Its just the hypocrisy of the narrative that irks me. The reasons Jokic won it the last two years was overachieving with his 2 main options (Porter Jr/Murray) out and Giannis voter fatigue. Now, Giannis has led his team to the 2nd best record in the league(tied with Denver) without his 2nd option, and now his 3rd option out. However Jokic is apparently the frontrunner because of statistical dominance and record, even though Giannis has the same record and putting up historic numbers himself.

Apparently voter fatigue applies to Giannis/MJ/Lebron not Jokic for some reason.

[Cubbies2120]

It sucks that Giannis hasn't been able to play with the Bucks 2nd and 3rd best players this season, as the supporting cast has been abysmal, especially lately (yet somehow the Bucks still have the equal 2nd best record in the league). Giannis, Middleton, and Jrue have played a total of 69 minutes together this season.

Its just the hypocrisy of the narrative that irks me. The reasons Jokic won it the last two years was overachieving with his 2 main options (Porter Jr/Murray) out and Giannis voter fatigue. Now, Giannis has led his team to the 2nd best record in the league(tied with Denver) without his 2nd option, and now his 3rd option out. However Jokic is apparently the frontrunner because of statistical dominance and record, even though Giannis has the same record and putting up historic numbers himself.

Apparently voter fatigue applies to Giannis/MJ/Lebron not Jokic for some reason.

Ahh didn't realize we went through the whole season already. I also didn't realize Khris and Jrue will be out for the rest of the season, too!

Middleton alone played almost as many games this year as Murray/MPJ combined last year...

Do you see the difference now?

Now if we're at Game 82, and Khris/Jrue don't play in anymore games, then we can start even remotely comparing the two. MPJ/Murray combined for 9 games (all MPJ) last season, Khris and Jrue have combined to play in 35 this year so far, with half a season to go.

[Chessboxer]

It sucks that Giannis hasn't been able to play with the Bucks 2nd and 3rd best players this season, as the supporting cast has been abysmal, especially lately (yet somehow the Bucks still have the equal 2nd best record in the league). Giannis, Middleton, and Jrue have played a total of 69 minutes together this season.

Its just the hypocrisy of the narrative that irks me. The reasons Jokic won it the last two years was overachieving with his 2 main options (Porter Jr/Murray) out and Giannis voter fatigue. Now, Giannis has led his team to the 2nd best record in the league(tied with Denver) without his 2nd option, and now his 3rd option out. However Jokic is apparently the frontrunner because of statistical dominance and record, even though Giannis has the same record and putting up historic numbers himself.

Apparently voter fatigue applies to Giannis/MJ/Lebron not Jokic for some reason.

Ahh didn't realize we went through the whole season already. I also didn't realize Khris and Jrue will be out for the rest of the season, too!

Middleton alone played as many games this year as Murray/MPJ combined...

Do you see the difference now?

I'm talking currently.

[mediocrityrules]

A lot of people getting triggered really easily in this thread. I make a statement that i'd love to see Giannis playing with a full team, the inference of my post (although not explicitly stated, but what i was thinking) being that his usage would likely go down, and his efficiency would go up. That's all.

It seems to however, have triggered a page of incredibly defensive posts from all sides. This thread has turned into a complete joke.

[Kurtz]

It sucks that Giannis hasn't been able to play with the Bucks 2nd and 3rd best players this season, as the supporting cast has been abysmal, especially lately (yet somehow the Bucks still have the equal 2nd best record in the league). Giannis, Middleton, and Jrue have played a total of 69 minutes together this season.

Its just the hypocrisy of the narrative that irks me. The reasons Jokic won it the last two years was overachieving with his 2 main options (Porter Jr/Murray) out and Giannis voter fatigue. Now, Giannis has led his team to the 2nd best record in the league(tied with Denver) without his 2nd option, and now his 3rd option out. However Jokic is apparently the frontrunner because of statistical dominance and record, even though Giannis has the same record and putting up historic numbers himself.

Apparently voter fatigue applies to Giannis/MJ/Lebron not Jokic for some reason.

Let's remember that Murray and Porter have both missed games this year, and haven't yet come close to regaining their former level yet. So far their second and third best have been Gordon and ...Hyland/Brown?

Jrue has played most games, and Brook has played at close to a star level (when you include his defense).

Luka/Giannis/Joker have done an equal carry job this year with a mediocre support cast. Giannis has also missed a number of games, which would hurt him in this extremely close race.

[ITYSL]

Some on/offs:

Jokic: +23
Tatum: +10.3
Luka: +9.4
Embiid: +8.7
KD: +6.9
Giannis: +4

[AleksandarN]

A lot of people getting triggered really easily in this thread. I make a statement that i'd love to see Giannis playing with a full team, the inference of my post (although not explicitly stated, but what i was thinking) being that his usage would likely go down, and his efficiency would go up. That's all.

It seems to however, have triggered a page of incredibly defensive posts from all sides. This thread has turned into a complete joke.

[CobraCommander]

I never said anyone was out the race....I said...just like the overwhelming majority of the posters and poll takers on this thread that Jokic was the MVP at that time because his stats were the best and his team was in first...just like now honestly

since then Luka has had a crazy run...Giannis has had crazy run...Embiid is on a crazy run...KD is 12 and 1 and playing well. Tatum took a step back...team lost some games and he has fallen back... in 82 game season that happens...

Do you only watch mavs games and you have a specific cam that spotlights Luka?

I know you love Luka but can you acknowledge that he isn’t even doing anything unprecedented and that there are 5 guys doing about the same thing right now...and that the best game this year was Mitchell...

I acknowledged Tatum fell back...but I hate Boston so I’m happy about that...

I give in, everyone are doing the same thing, who cares, if 2 of them have light years better advanced stats and 1 of them the best counting stats. I will just wait for Trae to have a few good games and he will be in that group too.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.html

I’m not following you - sorry - it’s not everyone -

like everyone else on the thread has mentioned- there are 5 people playing At unprecedented levels.

Not one of them has definitively separated themselves from the pack of those 5.

IMO- Jokic is most likely at the top of the 5- but with the rest of the other 4 guys playing so well any of these guys could win it.

Hey BOB… that’s why Tatum is in the MVP conversation-

When Luka and Tatum played on the same court in prime time Tatum out played him in every discernible category and every counting stat too…

Luka a bad man but you need to stop underestimating Tatum… he is a very bad man as well.

I know it’s one game in January but the voters will remember because Boston and their media won’t let us forget


And no this doesn’t make Tatum better than Luka - it’s one game

[Bob8]

I give in, everyone are doing the same thing, who cares, if 2 of them have light years better advanced stats and 1 of them the best counting stats. I will just wait for Trae to have a few good games and he will be in that group too.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.html

I’m not following you - sorry - it’s not everyone -

like everyone else on the thread has mentioned- there are 5 people playing At unprecedented levels.

Not one of them has definitively separated themselves from the pack of those 5.

IMO- Jokic is most likely at the top of the 5- but with the rest of the other 4 guys playing so well any of these guys could win it.

Hey BOB… that’s why Tatum is in the MVP conversation-

When Luka and Tatum played on the same court in prime time Tatum out played him in every discernible category and every counting stat too…

Luka a bad man but you need to stop underestimating Tatum… he is a very bad man as well.

I know it’s one game in January but the voters will remember because Boston and their media won’t let us forget


And no this doesn’t make Tatum better than Luka - it’s one game

Luka had a bad game and we all know that it's blowout in that case for Mavs everytime. Luka has to have a great game against average teams for Mavs to win. I believe everyone has seen how limited roster Mavs is, especially with 3 rotational players out.

Btw. Tatum had a pretty bad game himself before stat padding in garbage time.

[BelgradeNugget]

It sucks that Giannis hasn't been able to play with the Bucks 2nd and 3rd best players this season, as the supporting cast has been abysmal, especially lately (yet somehow the Bucks still have the equal 2nd best record in the league). Giannis, Middleton, and Jrue have played a total of 69 minutes together this season.

Its just the hypocrisy of the narrative that irks me. The reasons Jokic won it the last two years was overachieving with his 2 main options (Porter Jr/Murray) out and Giannis voter fatigue. Now, Giannis has led his team to the 2nd best record in the league(tied with Denver) without his 2nd option, and now his 3rd option out. However Jokic is apparently the frontrunner because of statistical dominance and record, even though Giannis has the same record and putting up historic numbers himself.

Apparently voter fatigue applies to Giannis/MJ/Lebron not Jokic for some reason.

Jokic team was overachieving last season and he was breaking records in all advanced stats that existed. If you look at average rankings in catch all metrics this season,

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Z4wdZo0rpET1_62BRt40bLh2Dup504BMEc2OQSDrq5w/edit#gid=849622435

Jokic is 2nd and Giannis is 11th. If you want to look at adjusted shooting Jokic is 2nd again, Giannis is 67th. Giannis's defense is not enough to overcome huge difference in offense between the two.

BTW can people please stop with false narrative that Giannis didn't win in 2020-21 because of voter fatigue. That year his team underachieved going from 57 wins in 2019-20 to 47 wins in 2020-21. Jokic's team won more games, Jokic won more games, Jokic beat him in every statistical category that year and rightfully got 91 1st place votes for MVP. Giannis received 1 1st place vote and it was one too many - stolen from Joker.

[scrabbarista]

If you preconceive everything as about race, you end up blind to ninety percent of what's actually going on in the world.

[antonac]

It sucks that Giannis hasn't been able to play with the Bucks 2nd and 3rd best players this season, as the supporting cast has been abysmal, especially lately (yet somehow the Bucks still have the equal 2nd best record in the league). Giannis, Middleton, and Jrue have played a total of 69 minutes together this season.

Its just the hypocrisy of the narrative that irks me. The reasons Jokic won it the last two years was overachieving with his 2 main options (Porter Jr/Murray) out and Giannis voter fatigue. Now, Giannis has led his team to the 2nd best record in the league(tied with Denver) without his 2nd option, and now his 3rd option out. However Jokic is apparently the frontrunner because of statistical dominance and record, even though Giannis has the same record and putting up historic numbers himself.

Apparently voter fatigue applies to Giannis/MJ/Lebron not Jokic for some reason.

this is taking that narrative and running with it. It was not the reason he won MVP, the reason Jokic won MVP was he put up 27/13/8 and had a highlight reel of incredible flashy passes and his closest competitors missed a number of games with injury. The reason Denver's record of 6th in the league wasn't used to penalize him was that people pointed out he didn't have his 2 main options and that actually 6th was pretty incredible given the help.

the Bucks record is not why people are saying Giannis shouldn't get MVP, they're saying he shouldn't get MVP because he's not playing as well as some of the other players.

[CobraCommander]

I’m not following you - sorry - it’s not everyone -

like everyone else on the thread has mentioned- there are 5 people playing At unprecedented levels.

Not one of them has definitively separated themselves from the pack of those 5.

IMO- Jokic is most likely at the top of the 5- but with the rest of the other 4 guys playing so well any of these guys could win it.

Hey BOB… that’s why Tatum is in the MVP conversation-

When Luka and Tatum played on the same court in prime time Tatum out played him in every discernible category and every counting stat too…

Luka a bad man but you need to stop underestimating Tatum… he is a very bad man as well.

I know it’s one game in January but the voters will remember because Boston and their media won’t let us forget


And no this doesn’t make Tatum better than Luka - it’s one game

Luka had a bad game and we all know that it's blowout in that case for Mavs everytime. Luka has to have a great game against average teams for Mavs to win. I believe everyone has seen how limited roster Mavs is, especially with 3 rotational players out.

Btw. Tatum had a pretty bad game himself before stat padding in garbage time.

The mvp is part legit award and partially a popularity contest-

Voters don’t watch all the games - they do remember narratives and then look at things like - head to head match ups and read the news -

Here is the news on espn-

https://www.espn.com/nba/recap/_/gameId/401468732

Pretty much says Tatum had a triple double in blow out over Luka. Only tatums second triple double and second time this year tatum has beat Luka. AFTER Boston lost to OKC minus SGA..:

the writers set up the narrative

The same writers vote on MVP-

Which is why I’m saying Tatum is still in the race. It’s not purely about who is the best player - or MJ would have more than 4, Lebron more than 4 and shaq would have more as well.

[Infinite Llamas]

It sucks that Giannis hasn't been able to play with the Bucks 2nd and 3rd best players this season, as the supporting cast has been abysmal, especially lately (yet somehow the Bucks still have the equal 2nd best record in the league). Giannis, Middleton, and Jrue have played a total of 69 minutes together this season.

Its just the hypocrisy of the narrative that irks me. The reasons Jokic won it the last two years was overachieving with his 2 main options (Porter Jr/Murray) out and Giannis voter fatigue. Now, Giannis has led his team to the 2nd best record in the league(tied with Denver) without his 2nd option, and now his 3rd option out. However Jokic is apparently the frontrunner because of statistical dominance and record, even though Giannis has the same record and putting up historic numbers himself.

Apparently voter fatigue applies to Giannis/MJ/Lebron not Jokic for some reason.

Jokic 24-11
Giannis 21-11

Not the same record at all

[Hello Brooklyn]

To me its still Tatum.

Celtics are still the best team in the league. Unless they get surpassed record wise why would it not be him?

[eminence]

To me its still Tatum.

Celtics are still the best team in the league. Unless they get surpassed record wise why would it not be him?

Because other players (notably Jokic) have been playing better on very good teams as well.

Would you have voted for Gobert in '21?

[Bob8]

Hey BOB… that’s why Tatum is in the MVP conversation-

When Luka and Tatum played on the same court in prime time Tatum out played him in every discernible category and every counting stat too…

Luka a bad man but you need to stop underestimating Tatum… he is a very bad man as well.

I know it’s one game in January but the voters will remember because Boston and their media won’t let us forget


And no this doesn’t make Tatum better than Luka - it’s one game

Luka had a bad game and we all know that it's blowout in that case for Mavs everytime. Luka has to have a great game against average teams for Mavs to win. I believe everyone has seen how limited roster Mavs is, especially with 3 rotational players out.

Btw. Tatum had a pretty bad game himself before stat padding in garbage time.

The mvp is part legit award and partially a popularity contest-

Voters don’t watch all the games - they do remember narratives and then look at things like - head to head match ups and read the news -

Here is the news on espn-

https://www.espn.com/nba/recap/_/gameId/401468732

Pretty much says Tatum had a triple double in blow out over Luka. Only tatums second triple double and second time this year tatum has beat Luka. AFTER Boston lost to OKC minus SGA..:

the writers set up the narrative

The same writers vote on MVP-

Which is why I’m saying Tatum is still in the race. It’s not purely about who is the best player - or MJ would have more than 4, Lebron more than 4 and shaq would have more as well.

Half of his points was in garbage time. I agree nobody will remember this game specifically. On the other hand, he's not getting MVP with those kind of performances. Too many candidates, who are playing a lot better.

[CharityStripe34]

Ok, it's been about 20 minutes. Who's MVP now?

[mademan]

To me its still Tatum.

Celtics are still the best team in the league. Unless they get surpassed record wise why would it not be him?

There's a much bigger difference in Jokic and Tatum's play then there is in their team records (1.5 game difference atm)