MVP Rankings 1.0

Post #821 » by **INKtastic** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:34 pm

you certainly never heard that from me - I was pretty disturbed to see artest go to LA.

Post #822 » by **MHZ** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:03 am

It's all about perception. It's not about improving on the exact win total from last season. If the Cavs finish third or fourth in their conference, and the Lakers finish first in theirs with all the momentum going into the playoffs, LeBron isn't winning. It's not about winning 66 games, or anything like that. It's about not letting two, maybe three teams in your own conference pass you up.

It's not about "the Lakers had lessened expectations" or anything. LA and Cleveland had championship expectations. Plain and simple. Right now, LA is living up to the billing, and Cleveland is not. That hurts LeBron's MVP chances. It's just that simple.

Voters for the most part base their decisions, seemingly, on feeling. Again, right or wrong, it's just the way it is. Jordan would have a crap ton more MVP's if it wasn't that way, and his team was still the best team in the league for many of those years. See Karl Malone's MVP.

If by the end of the season, LA doesn't look like a dominating force in the West, Kobe's going to get dinged for it.

Post #823 » by **semi-sentient** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:49 am

lj4mvp wrote:you certainly never heard that from me - I was pretty disturbed to see artest go to LA.

To be fair, it was primarily Rockets fans saying that Artest wasn't a good defender anymore. Maybe a few Kings fans sprinkled in.

Still, I think the general perception was that he would bring toughness which would improve the team slightly on defense, as well as a renewed drive to win it again. Offensively, even Lakers fans had their doubts on whether he would gel or not (he shot the Rockets out of quite a few of the Lakers/Rockets games last year -- haha). He's been pretty impressive so far.

Benedict_Boozer · Post #824 » by **Benedict_Boozer** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:01 am

semi-sentient wrote:
To be fair, it was primarily Rockets fans saying that Artest wasn't a good defender anymore. Maybe a few Kings fans sprinkled in.

Still, I think the general perception was that he would bring toughness which would improve the team slightly on defense, as well as a renewed drive to win it again. Offensively, even Lakers fans had their doubts on whether he would gel or not (he shot the Rockets out of quite a few of the Lakers/Rockets games last year -- haha). He's been pretty impressive so far.

I'll give Kobe credit for Artest staying in line on the court actually, mostly because Artest worships him for some reason. Which is funny to me because Kobe routinely busted Artest's a$$ in pretty much every LAL/HOU game I saw.

Bgil · Post #825 » by **Bgil** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:09 am

semi-sentient wrote:
YLSKillaCam wrote:Oh and just for the record,

people thought that Artest was both a "best and worst" newcomer, while Shaq was considered only for "best newcomer" and received more votes in that category than Artest.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/stor ... stNewcomer

Ouch. That's damning for the whole "Kobe has the former DPOY, blah, blah, blah argument" ... haha. Seriously, I can't believe people would even bring that up. All we heard in the offseason was how Artest was a washed up defender that would cause chemistry problems for the Lakers because he wouldn't accept his role, whereas Ariza was the perfect role player. Talk about some spin.

A lot of people actually thought we'd get worse after the Gasol trade because he was so soft.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=757392
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=756758&start=45

LeBronade · Post #826 » by **LeBronade** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:26 am

If Denver finish ahead of Lakers/Cavs then Melo is a lock for MVP!

Bgil · Post #827 » by **Bgil** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:42 am

LeBronade wrote:If Denver finish ahead of Lakers/Cavs then Melo is a lock for MVP!

If the Thunder finish ahead of the Lakers/Cavs then Durant is a lock for MVP.

LeBronade · Post #828 » by **LeBronade** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:11 am

^ although physically and mentally impossible!

Post #829 » by **semi-sentient** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:54 am

Bgil wrote:A lot of people actually thought we'd get worse after the Gasol trade because he was so soft.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=757392
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=756758&start=45

Wow, there's all kinds of sig-worthy material in those threads. Haha.

Post #830 » by **INKtastic** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:39 am

Bgil wrote:
semi-sentient wrote:
YLSKillaCam wrote:Oh and just for the record,

people thought that Artest was both a "best and worst" newcomer, while Shaq was considered only for "best newcomer" and received more votes in that category than Artest.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/stor ... stNewcomer

Ouch. That's damning for the whole "Kobe has the former DPOY, blah, blah, blah argument" ... haha. Seriously, I can't believe people would even bring that up. All we heard in the offseason was how Artest was a washed up defender that would cause chemistry problems for the Lakers because he wouldn't accept his role, whereas Ariza was the perfect role player. Talk about some spin.

A lot of people actually thought we'd get worse after the Gasol trade because he was so soft.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=757392
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=756758&start=45

some of that was likely wishful thinking from fans of competing teams. I hope you noticed I wasn't one of the doubters

lj4mvp wrote:The lakers were contenders before the trade. They had the best record in the west before the injuries. The problem they had was finding a way to keep a playoff spot until the players returned. The trade solved that problem.

as for the MVP discussion. Today there was a lot of talk about the cavs finishing 3rd or 4th in the east, tonight we're just 1 game out of the #1 seed in the east with a big road trip coming up. Dallas/Phoenix/Sacramento/LA. 4 games in 6 nights, the first two are back to back. It's nice to make up a game on boston ahead of that.

JimMurray · Post #831 » by **JimMurray** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:18 am

What Lebron fan wants to come watch the Lakers/Cavs game at my house on the big screen HD?! Beer is on me! Kobe fans of course are also welcome! I live in Cali.

Chris Hansen · Post #832 » by **Chris Hansen** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:55 am

If you want to buy my ticket, sure.

TAI8 · Post #833 » by **TAI8** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:14 am

Why is there a 56 page thread on the MVP? The award has become the most predictable as of late...

LeBronade · Post #834 » by **LeBronade** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:58 am

^ LeBron being the best player in the NBA doesn't guarantee he will win MVP, we've seen guys like Nash win it!

atamanbasar · Post #835 » by **atamanbasar** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:16 am

Since baskatball is a team play , kobe deserves the MVP as you may look rate of wins

CENTRAL W L PCT GB HM RD CONF DIV PF PA DIFF STRK L10
Cleveland 20 7 .741 - 11-2 9-5 13-5 5-1 99.4 94.0 +5.5 Won 5 8-2

PACIFIC W L PCT GB HM RD CONF DIV PF PA DIFF STRK L10
LA Lakers 20 4 .833 - 15-2 5-2 12-4 4-0 103.7 95.5 +8.2 Won 2 9-1

LeBronade · Post #836 » by **LeBronade** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:30 pm

^ Unfortunately for you the season has only just begun, and with a home schedule like LA's they should have a bigger lead (if they are the better team that is). Either way, the schedules will even out and the better team will have the better record!

ROballer · Post #837 » by **ROballer** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:37 pm

LeBronade wrote:^ Unfortunately for you the season has only just begun, and with a home schedule like LA's they should have more than a 3 game lead (if they are the better team that is). Either way, the schedules will even out and the better team will have the better record!

not necesarrily....cavs may have the better record but it's pretty obvious LA is the better team

same thing happened last year

LeBronade · Post #838 » by **LeBronade** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:32 pm

Shaq would never let Kobe beat him in a Finals series, so you better pray LA only have to play Boston (not that LA is better than Boston)!

ROballer · Post #839 » by **ROballer** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:50 pm

LeBronade wrote:Shaq would never let Kobe beat him in a Finals series, so you better pray LA only have to play Boston (not that LA is better than Boston)!

and what is he going to do??clothesline him,rip his neck off??

shaq is an elder citizen,he can't do nothing about kobe winning another one

gotta give your props though,your post is sig worthy :lol:

Original Baller · Post #840 » by **Original Baller** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:56 pm

lj4mvp wrote:LeBron vs Kobe

Shooting:
FGA: 19.8 vs 22.2
PPG: 28.9 vs 28.9
FG%: .507 vs .485
3PFG%: .368 vs .295
FT%: .782 vs .846
eFG%: .549 vs .507
TS%: .606 vs .566

It takes Kobe 2.4 more shots to score the same number of points.

Rebounding: 6.8 vs 5.2
Rebound rate: 10.8% vs 7.9%

Assists: 8.0 vs 4.1
Turnovers: 3.7 vs 3.1
Assist/TO Ratio: 2.1 vs 1.3

Advanced Stats:

PER: 30.32 vs 25.11
Win Share: 5.9 vs 4.1
Offensive Rating: 119 vs 112
Defensive Rating: 102 vs 99
Estimated Wins Added: 9.7 vs 6.5

So PPG is a tie and Kobe has the advantage in foul shooting (but not TS%), turnovers (but not assist/to ratio), defensive rating. LeBron has the advantage in everything else. for most things the gaps are quit substantial. nearly 2x the assists, 30% more rebounds, 20% better PER, 40% better win share, 60% better assist/turnover ratio.

Using FGA + FTA*0.44 + Assists + Turnovers to count possessions, LeBron ends 35.5 possessions/game while Kobe ends 32.7 possessions. LeBron generates at least 44.9 points (I didn't try to estimate 3 point shots) while Kobe genets 37.1 points. That works out to about 1.3 points per possession ended vs 1.1 points per possession ended.

It's been suggested that LeBron's better stats are simply a result of being in a system that requires him to do more. I have two questions about that.

1 - isn't being relied on to do more the same thing as being more valuable?
2 - doesn't having to do more make it more difficult to be efficient?

Doesn't being required to do more (as kobe fans say LeBron has to in the cavs system) while also producing at a more efficient rate mean you are by definition more valuable?

yet somehow former and current NBA players, coaches, and GM's say Kobe's better by a pretty significant margin

care to explain that?

I don't know how many people here actually played basketball before but in high school its was pretty easy to tell who was the best player on the court was and who had the best game WITHOUT finding the stat sheet afterwards or looking at season averages. IMO stats were just nice supplemental tools after the game to look at tendencies of an opponent.

I personally don't think the gap between Kobe or LeBron is big. In fact its so small I don't have issue with others feelings that LeBron is better. The guy is really good and improving all the time. But to make points that because LeBron has X number of more PER points or whatever, that makes him SIGNIFICANTLY better is completely laughable and shows the you have never really played basketball.

I respect the opinion of people who actually compete against both Kobe and LeBron to more accurately access whose better than stats which CERTAINLY don't encompass alot of what goes on in the game. I think even LeBron would find some of these reasons to validate him being better than Kobe as hilarious. I bet 99% of NBA players have never heard of PER, win shares, rebound rate, or whatever else gets created.