2022-23 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt.1)

[BelgradeNugget]

I blame Jokic and to a lesser extent, Westbrook, for the way these conversations go now.

The MVP used to go to the best player on the best (or second best) team. It rewarded fantastic individual performances in high stakes situations (e.g. regular season wins that had playoff seeding implications). Now we got guys arguing Steph as the MVP even though his team is below .500 or arguing that Luka should win the MVP precisely because his teammates suck ass.

First MVP Jokic won the Nuggets were 3rd in the West. You acting like Jokic was leading a below .500 team or borderline .500 team.

2nd MVP Jokic was missing his 2nd and 3rd best player and still had a way better record than .500.

Remove Draymond and Wiggins and the 8-9 Warriors record would be even more pathetic. Its not even a remotely good comparison.

Even more, when Jokic won his 1st MVP Denver won 47 games. Teams with better record were Utah Jazz with 52 wins. Their best scorer (arguably player) was Mitchel who played in 53 of 72 games. Phoenix had 51 wins. Who was their MVP Booker or CP? Then you had 76ers with 49 wins, Embiid contributing to 39 of them. Next was Brooklin, underachiving with 3 superstars (see 3 amigos Miami), with Durant playing in 35/72, Harden 36, and Kyrie with 54/72. Next was Denver with Jokic being the best player, playing in 72/72.

NBA declared "finalists" Jokic, Embiid who missed 21 games in 72 games season, and Curry whose team was 14th . Jokic
rightfully received 91% of 1 st place votes.

By best player from best team "fantastic individual performances in high stakes" who was your MVP in 2021?

[CobraCommander]

I don't mind if you think that way, i just look at it differently. Tatum did exactly what Boston expets from him and so did the rest of his team. JB was phenomenal, providing little bit of everything while the rest followed. Celtics are basically just continuing their mission from last year while being stronger and more experienced at the same time. I wouldn't be surprised if Tatum just relaxes in his role and cruises to the ring.

Mavs are in a totally different spot. Luka is one man army with a team that is playing way below their own level or ... they just can't climb to the expected level of last season for whatever reason.

If you switch Tatum and Luka, i'm 100% sure Luka would just focus on what's needed from him while Tatum would be also overwhelmed on the Mavs trying to do literally everything and more.

And i know you'll bring up defense. The difference between Tatum and Luka in % of defended shots is 2% in Tatum's favor. DRTG on NBA.com Tatum 112, Luka 111 and on BBALL, Luka 107, Tatum 112.... Luka leads Tatum in steals while Tatum is better in blocks.

Luka also scores and creates more points than Tatum. On average, Luka 22 created pts just from assists, Tatum only 13, so

Even if Tatum wins a ring, you'll probably have a hard time convincing non Celtics fans that he's the best player in the league or even better than Luka.
Funny thing is, Luka missed 2 easy layups at the rim and missed 4 FT's, if he made all of that he would end up with 50/8/9 on what, over 70% TS?.... and Mavs still wouldn't have enough to win.

Feel free to correct me if i made a mistake somewhere but that's just my opinion so don't take it as a fact, that's how i see it and it's a long way until the end of season, a lot can change.

All these stats lovers reach next level. Everything is evaluated through the prism of individual statistics. Luka style of play simply does not lead to victories.

For example 2Q w/o Doncic 6:40 min

DAL 17-19 BOS

Dinwiddie/Wood unit resisted very well against

Wiliams/Tatum/Hauser/White/Brogdon
Hortford/Tatum/Brown/White/Smart

Dinwiddie and Wood had 12pts on (4-7) and asisted on other two FGM. Doncic energy on defence and offence w/o ball was gone in second half. He rested on knees with hands couple time on offensive end and looked how teammates play. I dont talk about Doncic defence...Kidd/Doncic dont trust their team and for Doncic this is acceptable. He wants to be the man more than a team player.

May I remind you that Dinwiddie's +/- was -23 in Boston and his on/off for the season is disastrous, -21.

Btw. Mavs were in WCF last year, listening to you I would believe that Luka's style of play is not enough even for play-in.

Arch always makes logical arguments and while I respect his take, I think Lukas style of play will only take you so far. We have seen too many Lukas over the years from Nique to TMac to Westbrook and ultimately Harden...... We love his game. We respect his scoring but it’s just not on the same level or has the same impact on winning as Giannis, Lebron and I suspect Tatum.

Tatum can do everything Luka can but doesn’t need to because of teammates...I get it. We all get it...

But we have to agree, Luka shooting EIGHT 3s a game at 29% and having astronomical usage makes Luka something less than Prime Harden and Prime harden won a MVP but not a ring with similar or even better rosters.

So if Tatum does what his team needs, doesn’t force it and wins a ring while Luka continues to push the rock up the hill year after year, just to have it roll down the hill on him like Sisyphus....then Tatum will be the better of the two in my opinion.

At the tip top where Luka and Tatum live, rings are the determining factor when we are splitting hairs on greatness. Both guys are clearly great...and you can’t go wrong with either.

Again I think Luka has to make a choice long term...play like he is now or win a ring...I don’t think he can do both....

[Bob8]

All these stats lovers reach next level. Everything is evaluated through the prism of individual statistics. Luka style of play simply does not lead to victories.

For example 2Q w/o Doncic 6:40 min

DAL 17-19 BOS

Dinwiddie/Wood unit resisted very well against

Wiliams/Tatum/Hauser/White/Brogdon
Hortford/Tatum/Brown/White/Smart

Dinwiddie and Wood had 12pts on (4-7) and asisted on other two FGM. Doncic energy on defence and offence w/o ball was gone in second half. He rested on knees with hands couple time on offensive end and looked how teammates play. I dont talk about Doncic defence...Kidd/Doncic dont trust their team and for Doncic this is acceptable. He wants to be the man more than a team player.

May I remind you that Dinwiddie's +/- was -23 in Boston and his on/off for the season is disastrous, -21.

Btw. Mavs were in WCF last year, listening to you I would believe that Luka's style of play is not enough even for play-in.

Arch always makes logical arguments and while I respect his take, I think Lukas style of play will only take you so far. We have seen too many Lukas over the years from Nique to TMac to Westbrook and ultimately Harden...... We love his game. We respect his scoring but it’s just not on the same level or has the same impact on winning as Giannis, Lebron and I suspect Tatum.

Tatum can do everything Luka can but doesn’t need to because of teammates...I get it. We all get it...

But we have to agree, Luka shooting EIGHT 3s a game at 29% and having astronomical usage makes Luka something less than Prime Harden and Prime harden won a MVP but not a ring with similar or even better rosters.

So if Tatum does what his team needs, doesn’t force it and wins a ring while Luka continues to push the rock up the hill year after year, just to have it roll down the hill on him like Sisyphus....then Tatum will be the better of the two in my opinion.

At the tip top where Luka and Tatum live, rings are the determining factor when we are splitting hairs on greatness. Both guys are clearly great...and you can’t go wrong with either.

Again I think Luka has to make a choice long term...play like he is now or win a ring...I don’t think he can do both....

1. I believe everyone agrees that Tatum has much better teammates. Luka is more successful in last matches against Tatum.
2. Prime Harden had much better roster than Luka. He was very near to defeat probably the best GSW.
3. I find funny that you believe 3 points % in 16 games sample is more representative than Luka's career RS numbers or playoffs numbers.
4. You're right, Luka with that kind of roster can't win a title, nobody can. LeBron and MJ couldn't win anything with that kind of roster and being 23 years old too. Do you believe that nobody doubted in 23 years old MJ? They look pretty stupid now.

[Green89]

May I remind you that Dinwiddie's +/- was -23 in Boston and his on/off for the season is disastrous, -21.

Btw. Mavs were in WCF last year, listening to you I would believe that Luka's style of play is not enough even for play-in.

Arch always makes logical arguments and while I respect his take, I think Lukas style of play will only take you so far. We have seen too many Lukas over the years from Nique to TMac to Westbrook and ultimately Harden...... We love his game. We respect his scoring but it’s just not on the same level or has the same impact on winning as Giannis, Lebron and I suspect Tatum.

Tatum can do everything Luka can but doesn’t need to because of teammates...I get it. We all get it...

But we have to agree, Luka shooting EIGHT 3s a game at 29% and having astronomical usage makes Luka something less than Prime Harden and Prime harden won a MVP but not a ring with similar or even better rosters.

So if Tatum does what his team needs, doesn’t force it and wins a ring while Luka continues to push the rock up the hill year after year, just to have it roll down the hill on him like Sisyphus....then Tatum will be the better of the two in my opinion.

At the tip top where Luka and Tatum live, rings are the determining factor when we are splitting hairs on greatness. Both guys are clearly great...and you can’t go wrong with either.

Again I think Luka has to make a choice long term...play like he is now or win a ring...I don’t think he can do both....

1. I believe everyone agrees that Tatum has much better teammates. Luka is more successful in last matches against Tatum.
2. Prime Harden had much better roster than Luka. He was very near to defeat probably the best GSW.
3. I find funny that you believe 3 points % in 16 games sample is more representative than Luka's career RS numbers or playoffs numbers.
4. You're right, Luka with that kind of roster can't win a title, nobody can. LeBron and MJ couldn't win anything with that kind of roster and being 23 years old too. Do you believe that nobody doubted in 23 years old MJ? They look pretty stupid now.

Nonsense here. Lebron at age 23 took a Cavs team to the Finals that was putrid, and worse than who Luka has around him right now. Dinwiddie and Wood are both avergaing 17ppg. The Cavs next best player after Lebron that year was Larry Hughes, who averaged 14.9ppg for the season.

The Lebron/Luka comparison need to stop, please. He's not at that level.

[bisme37]

Latest MVP Ladder...

1 Doncic
2 Tatum
3 Jokic
4 Giannis
5 Curry
6 Mitchell
7 Booker
8 Davis
9 Fox
10 Morant

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-nov-25-2022-edition

[itsxtray]

All these stats lovers reach next level. Everything is evaluated through the prism of individual statistics. Luka style of play simply does not lead to victories.

For example 2Q w/o Doncic 6:40 min

DAL 17-19 BOS

Dinwiddie/Wood unit resisted very well against

Wiliams/Tatum/Hauser/White/Brogdon
Hortford/Tatum/Brown/White/Smart

Dinwiddie and Wood had 12pts on (4-7) and asisted on other two FGM. Doncic energy on defence and offence w/o ball was gone in second half. He rested on knees with hands couple time on offensive end and looked how teammates play. I dont talk about Doncic defence...Kidd/Doncic dont trust their team and for Doncic this is acceptable. He wants to be the man more than a team player.

May I remind you that Dinwiddie's +/- was -23 in Boston and his on/off for the season is disastrous, -21.

Btw. Mavs were in WCF last year, listening to you I would believe that Luka's style of play is not enough even for play-in.

Arch always makes logical arguments and while I respect his take, I think Lukas style of play will only take you so far. We have seen too many Lukas over the years from Nique to TMac to Westbrook and ultimately Harden...... We love his game. We respect his scoring but it’s just not on the same level or has the same impact on winning as Giannis, Lebron and I suspect Tatum.

Tatum can do everything Luka can but doesn’t need to because of teammates...I get it. We all get it...

But we have to agree, Luka shooting EIGHT 3s a game at 29% and having astronomical usage makes Luka something less than Prime Harden and Prime harden won a MVP but not a ring with similar or even better rosters.

So if Tatum does what his team needs, doesn’t force it and wins a ring while Luka continues to push the rock up the hill year after year, just to have it roll down the hill on him like Sisyphus....then Tatum will be the better of the two in my opinion.

At the tip top where Luka and Tatum live, rings are the determining factor when we are splitting hairs on greatness. Both guys are clearly great...and you can’t go wrong with either.

Again I think Luka has to make a choice long term...play like he is now or win a ring...I don’t think he can do both....

This definitely doesn't track to me. People make it seem like Hardens style of play can't win a ring when his Rockets were the only team to legitimately challenge a healthy KD warriors and would have won a title in a league without them. Tatum's celtics couldn't beat a much worse 2021 version but somehow he's a better player than Luka and his style of play is more valid if he eventually beats a team that doesn't come anywhere close to the 18 warriors? This is why using rings to judge players is illogical.

Hardens style of play can win rings and likewise Luka's can as well, full stop.

[California Gold]

Looks pretty even amongst the top 3 at the moment.

[Bob8]

Arch always makes logical arguments and while I respect his take, I think Lukas style of play will only take you so far. We have seen too many Lukas over the years from Nique to TMac to Westbrook and ultimately Harden...... We love his game. We respect his scoring but it’s just not on the same level or has the same impact on winning as Giannis, Lebron and I suspect Tatum.

Tatum can do everything Luka can but doesn’t need to because of teammates...I get it. We all get it...

But we have to agree, Luka shooting EIGHT 3s a game at 29% and having astronomical usage makes Luka something less than Prime Harden and Prime harden won a MVP but not a ring with similar or even better rosters.

So if Tatum does what his team needs, doesn’t force it and wins a ring while Luka continues to push the rock up the hill year after year, just to have it roll down the hill on him like Sisyphus....then Tatum will be the better of the two in my opinion.

At the tip top where Luka and Tatum live, rings are the determining factor when we are splitting hairs on greatness. Both guys are clearly great...and you can’t go wrong with either.

Again I think Luka has to make a choice long term...play like he is now or win a ring...I don’t think he can do both....

1. I believe everyone agrees that Tatum has much better teammates. Luka is more successful in last matches against Tatum.
2. Prime Harden had much better roster than Luka. He was very near to defeat probably the best GSW.
3. I find funny that you believe 3 points % in 16 games sample is more representative than Luka's career RS numbers or playoffs numbers.
4. You're right, Luka with that kind of roster can't win a title, nobody can. LeBron and MJ couldn't win anything with that kind of roster and being 23 years old too. Do you believe that nobody doubted in 23 years old MJ? They look pretty stupid now.

Nonsense here. Lebron at age 23 took a Cavs team to the Finals that was putrid, and worse than who Luka has around him right now. Dinwiddie and Wood are both avergaing 17ppg. The Cavs next best player after Lebron that year was Larry Hughes, who averaged 14.9ppg for the season.

The Lebron/Luka comparison need to stop, please. He's not at that level.

If I say to you that Luka is averaging 7 points, 2 rebounds and 2 assists more, with a lot better TS%, you will say different times. But you have no problems with comparing scoring of second best player.

Dinwiddie is in Mavs, because Wizards wanted to get rid of him and Wood is in Mavs because 6 teams before didn't see value in him.

[rocketsfan100]

It’s Tatum right now and he is running laps now around the pack

[Saint Lazarus]

I blame Jokic and to a lesser extent, Westbrook, for the way these conversations go now.

The MVP used to go to the best player on the best (or second best) team. It rewarded fantastic individual performances in high stakes situations (e.g. regular season wins that had playoff seeding implications). Now we got guys arguing Steph as the MVP even though his team is below .500 or arguing that Luka should win the MVP precisely because his teammates suck ass.

Are you writing off Curry from leading his team to a high seed just because of their current sub .500 record? I don't think any of the other currently mentioned candidates have led a team to a 61-win season much less the regular season wins record. If there is anyone who should be in the discussion despite his team's record it is Steph.

Writing him off? No. I’m saying he’s not in the discussion until the high seed happens. If the Warriors go on a run and they’re the 3rd seed at the ASG, let’s have the discussion then. Until that point, why don’t we talk about more deserving candidates?

[CobraCommander]

May I remind you that Dinwiddie's +/- was -23 in Boston and his on/off for the season is disastrous, -21.

Btw. Mavs were in WCF last year, listening to you I would believe that Luka's style of play is not enough even for play-in.

Arch always makes logical arguments and while I respect his take, I think Lukas style of play will only take you so far. We have seen too many Lukas over the years from Nique to TMac to Westbrook and ultimately Harden...... We love his game. We respect his scoring but it’s just not on the same level or has the same impact on winning as Giannis, Lebron and I suspect Tatum.

Tatum can do everything Luka can but doesn’t need to because of teammates...I get it. We all get it...

But we have to agree, Luka shooting EIGHT 3s a game at 29% and having astronomical usage makes Luka something less than Prime Harden and Prime harden won a MVP but not a ring with similar or even better rosters.

So if Tatum does what his team needs, doesn’t force it and wins a ring while Luka continues to push the rock up the hill year after year, just to have it roll down the hill on him like Sisyphus....then Tatum will be the better of the two in my opinion.

At the tip top where Luka and Tatum live, rings are the determining factor when we are splitting hairs on greatness. Both guys are clearly great...and you can’t go wrong with either.

Again I think Luka has to make a choice long term...play like he is now or win a ring...I don’t think he can do both....

This definitely doesn't track to me. People make it seem like Hardens style of play can't win a ring when his Rockets were the only team to legitimately challenge a healthy KD warriors and would have won a title in a league without them. Tatum's celtics couldn't beat a much worse 2021 version but somehow he's a better player than Luka and his style of play is more valid if he eventually beats a team that doesn't come anywhere close to the 18 warriors? This is why using rings to judge players is illogical.

Hardens style of play can win rings and likewise Luka's can as well, full stop.

It can but in 70 years we havent seen it....but I guess a monkey can play Mozart if we gave him enough time right?


Btw- I have the mavs in the finals this year (ironic huh) because I think the MAVs will realize that Luka can’t win a ring like this and decide they not gonna waste another year of Lukas career which is more than likely 1/3 over....and either swap coaches, update roster or Kidd will hire a true OC...

It’s frustrating watching Luka play like Harden considering I know the eventual outcome...I don’t get why y’all like watching Luka fail

[CobraCommander]

Arch always makes logical arguments and while I respect his take, I think Lukas style of play will only take you so far. We have seen too many Lukas over the years from Nique to TMac to Westbrook and ultimately Harden...... We love his game. We respect his scoring but it’s just not on the same level or has the same impact on winning as Giannis, Lebron and I suspect Tatum.

Tatum can do everything Luka can but doesn’t need to because of teammates...I get it. We all get it...

But we have to agree, Luka shooting EIGHT 3s a game at 29% and having astronomical usage makes Luka something less than Prime Harden and Prime harden won a MVP but not a ring with similar or even better rosters.

So if Tatum does what his team needs, doesn’t force it and wins a ring while Luka continues to push the rock up the hill year after year, just to have it roll down the hill on him like Sisyphus....then Tatum will be the better of the two in my opinion.

At the tip top where Luka and Tatum live, rings are the determining factor when we are splitting hairs on greatness. Both guys are clearly great...and you can’t go wrong with either.

Again I think Luka has to make a choice long term...play like he is now or win a ring...I don’t think he can do both....

1. I believe everyone agrees that Tatum has much better teammates. Luka is more successful in last matches against Tatum.
2. Prime Harden had much better roster than Luka. He was very near to defeat probably the best GSW.
3. I find funny that you believe 3 points % in 16 games sample is more representative than Luka's career RS numbers or playoffs numbers.
4. You're right, Luka with that kind of roster can't win a title, nobody can. LeBron and MJ couldn't win anything with that kind of roster and being 23 years old too. Do you believe that nobody doubted in 23 years old MJ? They look pretty stupid now.

Nonsense here. Lebron at age 23 took a Cavs team to the Finals that was putrid, and worse than who Luka has around him right now. Dinwiddie and Wood are both avergaing 17ppg. The Cavs next best player after Lebron that year was Larry Hughes, who averaged 14.9ppg for the season.

The Lebron/Luka comparison need to stop, please. He's not at that level.

Factual statements- no one is really comparing Luka with Lebron....Lebron is the best or second best ever....Luka ain’t tracking to that....uh no one really does until they win a ring or two honestly


And that’s not a slight.......but Curry got 4 in 8 and we not comparing him to LBJ

[Saint Lazarus]

I blame Jokic and to a lesser extent, Westbrook, for the way these conversations go now.

The MVP used to go to the best player on the best (or second best) team. It rewarded fantastic individual performances in high stakes situations (e.g. regular season wins that had playoff seeding implications). Now we got guys arguing Steph as the MVP even though his team is below .500 or arguing that Luka should win the MVP precisely because his teammates suck ass.

First MVP Jokic won the Nuggets were 3rd in the West. You acting like Jokic was leading a below .500 team or borderline .500 team.

2nd MVP Jokic was missing his 2nd and 3rd best player and still had a way better record than .500.

Remove Draymond and Wiggins and the 8-9 Warriors record would be even more pathetic. Its not even a remotely good comparison.

I was fine with Jokic winning his 2 awards. I just find the discourse to be lame as **** now because every one and their mother putting up great stats on .500 teams gets to have their MVP case be validated. It should be reserved for players on top 3 seeded teams.

[WarriorGM]

I blame Jokic and to a lesser extent, Westbrook, for the way these conversations go now.

The MVP used to go to the best player on the best (or second best) team. It rewarded fantastic individual performances in high stakes situations (e.g. regular season wins that had playoff seeding implications). Now we got guys arguing Steph as the MVP even though his team is below .500 or arguing that Luka should win the MVP precisely because his teammates suck ass.

Are you writing off Curry from leading his team to a high seed just because of their current sub .500 record? I don't think any of the other currently mentioned candidates have led a team to a 61-win season much less the regular season wins record. If there is anyone who should be in the discussion despite his team's record it is Steph.

Writing him off? No. I’m saying he’s not in the discussion until the high seed happens. If the Warriors go on a run and they’re the 3rd seed at the ASG, let’s have the discussion then. Until that point, why don’t we talk about more deserving candidates?

What makes a deserving candidate? Simply going by body of work and the times the award has flip-flopped on criteria during his career Curry is the most deserving candidate. If one were to ask you who was the most dominant regular season player of this era who would your answer be and why?

[mediocrityrules]

It’s Tatum right now and he is running laps now around the pack

No one's running laps around anyone at the moment. It's tight at the top and will continue to be so as all of the leaders keep putting in great games.

[Saint Lazarus]

Are you writing off Curry from leading his team to a high seed just because of their current sub .500 record? I don't think any of the other currently mentioned candidates have led a team to a 61-win season much less the regular season wins record. If there is anyone who should be in the discussion despite his team's record it is Steph.

Writing him off? No. I’m saying he’s not in the discussion until the high seed happens. If the Warriors go on a run and they’re the 3rd seed at the ASG, let’s have the discussion then. Until that point, why don’t we talk about more deserving candidates?

What makes a deserving candidate? Simply going by body of work and the times the award has flip-flopped on criteria during his career Curry is the most deserving candidate. If one were to ask you who was the most dominant regular season player of this era who would your answer be and why?

Curry isn’t winning the award on a sub .500 team. There’s no point in any further discussion to such an unrealistic scenario and argument for his case is just homerism.

[WarriorGM]

Writing him off? No. I’m saying he’s not in the discussion until the high seed happens. If the Warriors go on a run and they’re the 3rd seed at the ASG, let’s have the discussion then. Until that point, why don’t we talk about more deserving candidates?

What makes a deserving candidate? Simply going by body of work and the times the award has flip-flopped on criteria during his career Curry is the most deserving candidate. If one were to ask you who was the most dominant regular season player of this era who would your answer be and why?

Curry isn’t winning the award on a sub .500 team. There’s no point in any further discussion to such an unrealistic scenario and argument for his case is just homerism.

You think he will finish on a sub .500 team? Arguing he's going to do so absent an injury is the more unrealistic scenario and betrays more hating on your part than homerism on mine.

[BoatsNZones]

Writing him off? No. I’m saying he’s not in the discussion until the high seed happens. If the Warriors go on a run and they’re the 3rd seed at the ASG, let’s have the discussion then. Until that point, why don’t we talk about more deserving candidates?

What makes a deserving candidate? Simply going by body of work and the times the award has flip-flopped on criteria during his career Curry is the most deserving candidate. If one were to ask you who was the most dominant regular season player of this era who would your answer be and why?

Curry isn’t winning the award on a sub .500 team. There’s no point in any further discussion to such an unrealistic scenario and argument for his case is just homerism.

They're 3 back from 1st. It would be absurdly stupid to put any stock in "high seeding" right now. Unless your team is truly poor and expected to stay that way, all that matters is who the best players are at this point. And Curry has been the best player. So no, he's not being a homer.

[Saint Lazarus]

What makes a deserving candidate? Simply going by body of work and the times the award has flip-flopped on criteria during his career Curry is the most deserving candidate. If one were to ask you who was the most dominant regular season player of this era who would your answer be and why?

Curry isn’t winning the award on a sub .500 team. There’s no point in any further discussion to such an unrealistic scenario and argument for his case is just homerism.

You think he will finish on a sub .500 team? Arguing he's going to do so absent an injury is the more unrealistic scenario and betrays more hating on your part than homerism on mine.

Do you think a player on a sub .500 team deserves to be in the MVP conversation? My point is not based on where the Warriors might end up, it’s on where they are right now.

[itsxtray]

Arch always makes logical arguments and while I respect his take, I think Lukas style of play will only take you so far. We have seen too many Lukas over the years from Nique to TMac to Westbrook and ultimately Harden...... We love his game. We respect his scoring but it’s just not on the same level or has the same impact on winning as Giannis, Lebron and I suspect Tatum.

Tatum can do everything Luka can but doesn’t need to because of teammates...I get it. We all get it...

But we have to agree, Luka shooting EIGHT 3s a game at 29% and having astronomical usage makes Luka something less than Prime Harden and Prime harden won a MVP but not a ring with similar or even better rosters.

So if Tatum does what his team needs, doesn’t force it and wins a ring while Luka continues to push the rock up the hill year after year, just to have it roll down the hill on him like Sisyphus....then Tatum will be the better of the two in my opinion.

At the tip top where Luka and Tatum live, rings are the determining factor when we are splitting hairs on greatness. Both guys are clearly great...and you can’t go wrong with either.

Again I think Luka has to make a choice long term...play like he is now or win a ring...I don’t think he can do both....

This definitely doesn't track to me. People make it seem like Hardens style of play can't win a ring when his Rockets were the only team to legitimately challenge a healthy KD warriors and would have won a title in a league without them. Tatum's celtics couldn't beat a much worse 2021 version but somehow he's a better player than Luka and his style of play is more valid if he eventually beats a team that doesn't come anywhere close to the 18 warriors? This is why using rings to judge players is illogical.

Hardens style of play can win rings and likewise Luka's can as well, full stop.

It can but in 70 years we havent seen it....but I guess a monkey can play Mozart if we gave him enough time right?


Btw- I have the mavs in the finals this year (ironic huh) because I think the MAVs will realize that Luka can’t win a ring like this and decide they not gonna waste another year of Lukas career which is more than likely 1/3 over....and either swap coaches, update roster or Kidd will hire a true OC...

It’s frustrating watching Luka play like Harden considering I know the eventual outcome...I don’t get why y’all like watching Luka fail

I love how you just ignore my arguments lol. So to you the 2018 Rockets just wouldn't win a championship in any year in modern nba history? Even tho that style of play took one of the best teams of all time to 7 games? Or are the 18 warriors suddenly not all time great? Luka has proven more resilient in the playoffs that Harden. Put him on that 18 team and they win a title in most years in modern nba history as well.