Cooper Flagg

[tsherkin]

He's 17 and playing for Duke. 46 FTA's means next to nothing as far as I'm concerned. It may sound ridiculous, but it could just be that he isn't relaxing physiologically. As in, he hasn't gotten comfortable (literally) at the line in college environs yet.

I agree with all of that, yes.

I think the 80% on 139 attempts in HS is more indicative of his potential as a shooter than the (presumably, based on context in this thread) sub-70% he's shooting on 46 attempts in college.

I agree.

FT% can be a bit tricky, as so much of it is mental. We do see odd blips over hundreds of attempts sometimes, upwards and downwards, even in this most "controlled environment" of all basketball statistics.

Absolutely.

That's what I put so many caveats into my post. He's young, the samples are tiny. We don't really know. He didn't look amazing from the HS 3, though, which does sort of lean one in the direction of non-elite ability there. Again, 144 attempts, so nothing definitive, but what we see is that over the competitive games he's played, he doesn't stand out as an elite shooter at this stage. Time will tell and we need to give it to him because he's very far from a finished product.

So ultimately, this is all premature, off-cuff discussion, no doubt. Form looks fine, so he probably won't be dreadful, but it doesn't look like a focal point for his game, you know? Doesn't look like a generational shooter.

So far, his first 8 games have not been exciting in terms of showcasing finishing ability. He has a handle, he can go left and right. Saw a nice turnaround fade against Auburn and all that. So there are promising signs, for sure. My remarks are more about individual comparisons and the like than they are designed to be too pessimistic about Flagg as an overall player.

[GiggitySmalls]

We should also keep in mind, he should actually be a senior in highschool. I never see that mentioned.

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[165bows]

We should also keep in mind, he should actually be a senior in highschool. I never see that mentioned.

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21/11/5 and 4 stocks per 40 is a very good line most guys won’t put up in college, let alone at 17.

[azcatz11]

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[baldur]

onyl true generational prospects in the past 20 years were lebron and wemby. nobody else. one lived up to the expectations, who is constantly in goat discussions constantly, other one has been so far so good and very likely will be getting chips, or long years of being a contender with so many all-stars selections, personal awards and records.

[HotRocks34]

How tall is this guy barefoot?

Maybe his floor is something like a taller Christian Braun. Great defender, excellent athlete and transition star but doesn't have the skill set to be a major star.

I haven't been watching his games so I don't fully know his toolkit.

I'm in the dubious camp on Flagg and this is an absurd take.

Sorry HotRocks I edited my post to flame you after you +1'd it.

No worries. I had never actually watched a game of his until the Auburn contest so I had no strong feeling with what I posted. It was more of a question to others who knew more about him than I did.

After watching the Auburn game yeah he's pretty legit IMO. And there's a lot of room for growth, as well, IMO.

By the way I'm a big fan of Braun so I wasn't trying to diss either player. But Braun doesn't really have a total offensive game. Flagg has a larger offensive skill set and he's 17.

[dc]

I have yet to hear a single player comp that I really love for Flagg. Not sure why that is. Maybe because he's so young and still fairly amorphous relative to his potential. The Kirilenko-on-defense one is probably the one that's stuck the best for me, but nothing, even that one, is really nailing the essence of what I see when I watch him play.

Kirilenko was a freak on defense. At his peak, he was doing 3 blocks a game from the SF position. That's absolutely insane. He had the mobility to cover wings along with the reach of a center.

I don't think Flagg is that kind of a physical freak. He should be a plus defender, but somewhere between Kirilenko and Battier (who was more of an "all around" defender). I don't expect him to be some rim protector or true shot blocking deterrent like AD. I don't see him as a true "big" or a Kirilenko like physical freak at the NBA level.

On offense, we just don't know what kind of shot creator he's going to be in the pros. If he's somewhere in the neighborhood of Tatum, that would probably be more than good enough to justify being the #1 overall pick.

[tsherkin]

I have yet to hear a single player comp that I really love for Flagg. Not sure why that is. Maybe because he's so young and still fairly amorphous relative to his potential. The Kirilenko-on-defense one is probably the one that's stuck the best for me, but nothing, even that one, is really nailing the essence of what I see when I watch him play.

Kirilenko was a freak on defense. At his peak, he was doing 3 blocks a game from the SF position. That's absolutely insane. He had the mobility to cover wings along with the reach of a center.

I don't think Flagg is that kind of a physical freak. He should be a plus defender, but somewhere between Kirilenko and Battier (who was more of an "all around" defender). I don't expect him to be some rim protector or true shot blocking deterrent like AD. I don't see him as a true "big" or a Kirilenko like physical freak at the NBA level.

On offense, we just don't know what kind of shot creator he's going to be in the pros. If he's somewhere in the neighborhood of Tatum, that would probably be more than good enough to justify being the #1 overall pick.

In the end, we just have to see him play.

From what video I've seen of him, he looks pretty fluid and he's got some good-looking middle game. Doesn't look like a generational athlete or crazy-skilled in any particular area, but reasonably good in most areas. But we've seen what, not even a dozen college games and otherwise a bunch of useless HS games. So we'll have to wait.

[Cavsfansince84]

Kirilenko was a freak on defense. At his peak, he was doing 3 blocks a game from the SF position. That's absolutely insane. He had the mobility to cover wings along with the reach of a center.

I don't think Flagg is that kind of a physical freak. He should be a plus defender, but somewhere between Kirilenko and Battier (who was more of an "all around" defender). I don't expect him to be some rim protector or true shot blocking deterrent like AD. I don't see him as a true "big" or a Kirilenko like physical freak at the NBA level.

On offense, we just don't know what kind of shot creator he's going to be in the pros. If he's somewhere in the neighborhood of Tatum, that would probably be more than good enough to justify being the #1 overall pick.

On defense I agree but in terms of off+def I think he's more of a freak than Andrei was. He's more of a modern KG if people can get past only comparing white players to white players. I don't know if he actually has KG like size or if its just bs but if he's a legit 6-9 or taller that's the best comparison though he likely won't be as good on defense. I mean he's only 17 or 18 still.. he could be damn scary just by the time he's 21.

[tsherkin]

On defense I agree but in terms of off+def I think he's more of a freak than Andrei was. He's more of a modern KG if people can get past only comparing white players to white players. I don't know if he actually has KG like size or if its just bs but if he's a legit 6-9 or taller that's the best comparison though he likely won't be as good on defense. I mean he's only 17 or 18 still.. he could be damn scary just by the time he's 21.

Doesn't much look like he has anything approaching KG-levels of playmaking, nor a KG-level shot. Not really sure Garnett makes any kind of sense. Definitely doesn't have the same size.

Could he grow? Sure. But their games don't look similar and they aren't physically that similar either, nor is their skillset set particularly comparable.

[dc]

On defense I agree but in terms of off+def I think he's more of a freak than Andrei was. He's more of a modern KG if people can get past only comparing white players to white players. I don't know if he actually has KG like size or if its just bs but if he's a legit 6-9 or taller that's the best comparison though he likely won't be as good on defense. I mean he's only 17 or 18 still.. he could be damn scary just by the time he's 21.

He'd need to grow to be KG, which is still possible but he'd need to grow quite a lot. KG w/o shoes was 6'11" as a 19 year old and he likely grew after that. We don't even know if Flagg is 6'8" w/o shoes and he definitely doesn't have KG's long arms. The guy was a physical freak.

I agree with tsherkin that we simply have to see him play, but the main point I'm trying to get across is that Flagg (unless he grows) doesn't have the makings of a true NBA "big" or paint deterrent on the defensive side. Basically, he's not a KG or AD type of player for the simple fact that he's not as big as those guys. I wouldn't expect a ~ 6'8" guy to be like that.

[LuckyGreen7]

His game reminds me of Tatum with Tatum getting the edge on outside shooting and Flagg the edge (potentially as he matures) on interior defense.

[Cavsfansince84]

Doesn't much look like he has anything approaching KG-levels of playmaking, nor a KG-level shot. Not really sure Garnett makes any kind of sense. Definitely doesn't have the same size.

Could he grow? Sure. But their games don't look similar and they aren't physically that similar either, nor is their skillset set particularly comparable.

Come on. You can't possibly be judging his shooting and playmaking against what we think of as prime KG at 17 years of age. I think if most of this board saw 17 yr old KG right now they wouldn't possibly think he'd become a strong shooter or playmaker at his position. So it's another wait and see. It wouldn't be that uncommon for a 17 yr old to grow still as well. I wanna see his true height when he's 20.

[Cavsfansince84]

He'd need to grow to be KG, which is still possible but he'd need to grow quite a lot. KG w/o shoes was 6'11" as a 19 year old and he likely grew after that. We don't even know if Flagg is 6'8" w/o shoes and he definitely doesn't have KG's long arms. The guy was a physical freak.

I agree with tsherkin that we simply have to see him play, but the main point I'm trying to get across is that Flagg (unless he grows) doesn't have the makings of a true NBA "big" or paint deterrent on the defensive side. Basically, he's not a KG or AD type of player for the simple fact that he's not as big as those guys. I wouldn't expect a ~ 6'8" guy to be like that.

He would but its not hard to imagine a 17 yr old growing another inch or so. I'm not putting much stock into KG being 6-11 at 19 either. I've been around too long to believe even 10% of what I hear about guys heights at this age or that age.

[dc]

He would but its not hard to imagine a 17 yr old growing another inch or so. I'm not putting much stock into KG being 6-11 at 19 either. I've been around too long to believe even 10% of what I hear about guys heights at this age or that age.

6'11" w/o shoes is what KG measured at the combine. Eye test made it seem quite reasonable. The guy was easily taller than Joe Smith, who measured at 6'9.5".

[FrodoBaggins]

Jalen Johnson (6'7.75" barefoot, 8'10" standing reach, 7'0.25" wingspan) having a breakout year.

- 20.1 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.1 bpg, 3.2 topg
- 36.0% 3pt (4.5 3pa), 56.9% 2pt, 75.7% ft (3.2 fta), 58.5% TS (102 TS+)

He has some Flagg-like qualities: point-forward playmaking, efficient 2pt play-finishing, outsized rebounding relative to position and size, active defensive playmaker.

Falls into that Gerald Wallace/Shawn Marion/Andrei Kirilenko/Josh Smith bucket. Athletic two-way combo FWDs that play well off two feet. Two-footed jumping is very important for rebounding, shot-blocking, and two-point play finishing, particularly in the paint, at the rim, and in transition.

I think Cooper has better measurements than Jalen. Something more in line with Scottie Barnes (6'7" barefoot, 9'0" standing reach, 7'2.75" wingspan) and Pascal Siakam (6'8.25" barefoot, 8'11.5" standing reach, 7'3.25" wingspan).

[tsherkin]

Come on. You can't possibly be judging his shooting and playmaking against what we think of as prime KG at 17 years of age. I think if most of this board saw 17 yr old KG right now they wouldn't possibly think he'd become a strong shooter or playmaker at his position. So it's another wait and see. It wouldn't be that uncommon for a 17 yr old to grow still as well. I wanna see his true height when he's 20.

No, that's still off, and badly. KG averaged over 6 bpg and shot nearly 67% from the field in his senior year. He was a ~ 25/18 guy in that last HS season. And his vision and passing were visibly different. KG was always a good shooter, that was a feature element of how he played. He's a good example of FT% not telling the whole story once he hit the NBA, to be fair, but he was MURDERING it from 16+ feet right away.

Not a close comparison.

[MrBigShot]

Good prospect that will likely come up short due to the generational talent expectations that will be placed on him. He should be much more efficient as a 6'9 wing with great athleticism.

[Cavsfansince84]

No, that's still off, and badly. KG averaged over 6 bpg and shot nearly 67% from the field in his senior year. He was a ~ 25/18 guy in that last HS season. And his vision and passing were visibly different. KG was always a good shooter, that was a feature element of how he played. He's a good example of FT% not telling the whole story once he hit the NBA, to be fair, but he was MURDERING it from 16+ feet right away.

Not a close comparison.

His stats as a senior in hs doesn't necessarily prove me wrong but its possible his long range shot was already developed at that age. It's not that serious to me. If anything I just want to see Cooper succeed the way I do with Wemby. Let's see how Cooper actually looks at age 20-21 before people try to call me crazy comparing him to KG though.

[tsherkin]

His stats as a senior in hs doesn't necessarily prove me wrong but its possible his long range shot was already developed at that age. It's not that serious to me.

He shot 45.1% from 10-16 and 46.9% from 16-23 in his rookie season in the NBA; he didn't magically improve that over the summer, you know what I mean? He was more dominant in HS than Flagg and that shooting was a component thereof. It's a large point of separation between the two.

If anything I just want to see Cooper succeed the way I do with Wemby. Let's see how Cooper actually looks at age 20-21 before people try to call me crazy comparing him to KG though.

Yes, you are crazy for comparing him to KG. Flagg is going to have his own style, which is going to match his skillset and athletic tools in ways that the Garnett comparison does not provide.