2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

[HurricaneKid]

'hunting assists' and 'stealing rebounds' is an actual thing in nba game. Westbrook is indeed the king of hunting assists, but i have no qualms with his rebounding tactics. I think houston is just a way better team, and harden having better efficiency will make it obvious he is the mvp. i couldnt care less about a triple double, i would be more impressed if he aveaged 35 ppg+, which i dont think he is capable of.

No. Westbrook is merely apprentice to Rondo. Rondo is the unquestioned Kind of assist hunting. He won't give up the ball until he thinks you will catch and shoot.

And he has never led a top 10 offense in the league. Even with KG/Pierce/Allen. Westbrook has, and plenty of times.

[ken6199]

Just like to point out Harden's usage rate this season is 33.8%, while WB is 41%.

WB has the ball in his hands a lot more than Harden.

That's not how USG is calculated. It has nothing w/ time of poss. in it.

Yeah you right. My bad.

Too be more precise, that IS how USG is calculated, it just does not reflect Harden and Westbrook who has the ball more in his hands. USG means the percentage of team plays used by the player while on the floor.

[Zombiesonics]

No. Westbrook is merely apprentice to Rondo. Rondo is the unquestioned Kind of assist hunting. He won't give up the ball until he thinks you will catch and shoot.

And he has never led a top 10 offense in the league. Even with KG/Pierce/Allen. Westbrook has, and plenty of times.

oh damn, very true. RR isn't even playing basketball out there, its rondo ball.

[bondom34]

You posted on/off stats that are notoriously noisy when used over entire seasons; only you are not only using them over 1/4 of the season, but ignoring that one of the best defenders in the league has played almost every single one of his minutes with RWB on the floor as well. So DRTG, which is just what OKC allows while RWB is on the floor, is going to be massively overstated.

Now his immense usage DOES allow OKC to use defensive stoppers with limited offensive games more frequently (I'm looking at you Roberson/Grant) that is reminiscent of the Iverson 76ers.

Asking for data sets on how it hurts the team to not box out, to leave team positions seeking individual achievements while using really flawed data sets yourself seems a bit off. Players shouldn't be rewarded for selfishly taking rebounds away from teammates. They shouldn't be rewarded for leaving their personal responsibilities for personal gain. And there is no question he is. How many rebounds is he taking short cuts for? More than you are admitting to for certain. Probably more than enough to drop him well under 10 reb a game. Does it mean he isn't a massively talented player having a great season with a flawed roster? Of course not. I just don't like arbitrary achievements in general, and when they are accomplished at a cost of not playing the right way it is even more frustrating.

How is it for personal gain if it helps the team? They rebound better with him on and I posted the numers showing his rebounds lead to better fast breaks. There's nothign showing selfishness other than you using the term. Why aren't Harden's assists selfish? Why aren't Curry's 3s selfish? Why aren't Giannis's everything selfish? This seems a claim you can't actually back at all without making a statement you can't support.

If you post said evidence I'll oblige, but you haven't. Harden is more ball dominant with better offensive teammates. Yet his assists aren't what you're claiming Russ's rebounds.

Edit: Harden averages more possession per game, time of touch, dribble per touch, and fewer points per touch.

[HurricaneKid]

You posted on/off stats that are notoriously noisy when used over entire seasons; only you are not only using them over 1/4 of the season, but ignoring that one of the best defenders in the league has played almost every single one of his minutes with RWB on the floor as well. So DRTG, which is just what OKC allows while RWB is on the floor, is going to be massively overstated.

Now his immense usage DOES allow OKC to use defensive stoppers with limited offensive games more frequently (I'm looking at you Roberson/Grant) that is reminiscent of the Iverson 76ers.

Asking for data sets on how it hurts the team to not box out, to leave team positions seeking individual achievements while using really flawed data sets yourself seems a bit off. Players shouldn't be rewarded for selfishly taking rebounds away from teammates. They shouldn't be rewarded for leaving their personal responsibilities for personal gain. And there is no question he is. How many rebounds is he taking short cuts for? More than you are admitting to for certain. Probably more than enough to drop him well under 10 reb a game. Does it mean he isn't a massively talented player having a great season with a flawed roster? Of course not. I just don't like arbitrary achievements in general, and when they are accomplished at a cost of not playing the right way it is even more frustrating.

How is it for personal gain if it helps the team? They rebound better with him on and I posted the numers showing his rebounds lead to better fast breaks. There's nothign showing selfishness other than you using the term. Why aren't Harden's assists selfish? Why aren't Curry's 3s selfish? Why aren't Giannis's everything selfish? This seems a claim you can't actually back at all without making a statement you can't support.

If you post said evidence I'll oblige, but you haven't. Harden is more ball dominant with better offensive teammates. Yet his assists aren't what you're claiming Russ's rebounds.

Edit: Harden averages more possession per game, time of touch, dribble per touch, and fewer points per touch.

No, they rebound better with ADAMS IN. You cannot separate the two. And that's the problem. Roberson/Dipo are good rebounders for their position as well.

Making the right pass to an open player who makes a shot is not inherently selfish. Leaving a position beneficial to the team to garner personal statistics is. Harden absolutely does hold the ball too much. They both do. But its a matter of efficiency. RWB shoots .539TS%. The league avg is .544. Harden is .616. I actually think it would be better for Westbrook to pass MORE.

Giannis is a great example of players who try to do the right thing and why I believe basketball is better than it was when I was a kid. His mistakes are youthful pride mistakes. Trying to block a shot he has no chance of blocking, etc. Once he learns to minimize those issues he will be a generational talent.

Its literally your position that until I can separate out all the rebounds Westbrook gives by giving up team position to achieve his personal feat I cannot argue fundamental truths about basketball, that rebounding is a team directive and everyone must do their part. I am not a video coordinator. I am CERTAIN there is plenty of video evidence out there or exactly what you are denying. I'm just not going to put in the work of putting it together. That doesn't mean that I cannot cling to fundamental basketball truths.

Here is one stat that jumped out at me:

CAREER Def Rebounding %- 13.0%
2016-17 Def Rebounding %- 26.1%

Are you are telling me he hasn't altered his rebounding process and isn't changing his location to get to rebounds he shouldn't be getting to? Or that the ball has just been bouncing to him more?

[bondom34]

No, they rebound better with ADAMS IN. You cannot separate the two. And that's the problem. Roberson/Dipo are good rebounders for their position as well.

Making the right pass to an open player who makes a shot is not inherently selfish. Leaving a position beneficial to the team to garner personal statistics is. Harden absolutely does hold the ball too much. They both do. But its a matter of efficiency. RWB shoots .539TS%. The league avg is .544. Harden is .616. I actually think it would be better for Westbrook to pass MORE.

Giannis is a great example of players who try to do the right thing and why I believe basketball is better than it was when I was a kid. His mistakes are youthful pride mistakes. Trying to block a shot he has no chance of blocking, etc. Once he learns to minimize those issues he will be a generational talent.

Its literally your position that until I can separate out all the rebounds Westbrook gives by giving up team position to achieve his personal feat I cannot argue fundamental truths about basketball, that rebounding is a team directive and everyone must do their part. I am not a video coordinator. I am CERTAIN there is plenty of video evidence out there or exactly what you are denying. I'm just not going to put in the work of putting it together. That doesn't mean that I cannot cling to fundamental basketball truths.

Here is one stat that jumped out at me:

CAREER Def Rebounding %- 13.0%
2016-17 Def Rebounding %- 26.1%

Are you are telling me he hasn't altered his rebounding process and isn't changing his location to get to rebounds he shouldn't be getting to? Or that the ball has just been bouncing to him more?

So, you can't actually back anything up? Because it seems like you can't.

I've said before this is what they plan on him doing. His numbers are what they are because they want him grabbing those rebounds instead of the bigs. If you think the coaches are idiots for doing it tell them, but there's actual empirical evidence this leads to better possessions which you never addressed and only continue to make claims you can't back up. They want him to because it helps the team. Just like making a pass. And if you think he needs to pass more, I would suggest you look at his teammates.

Edit again: And per NBAWOWY:

Westbrook on/Adams off:
http://nbawowy.com/3vawgwrzhze#/3vawgwrzhze

Team Rebounding at 55%

Westbrook off:
http://nbawowy.com/#/00kfbmxg65no
Team Rebounding at 47%

[HurricaneKid]

No, they rebound better with ADAMS IN. You cannot separate the two. And that's the problem. Roberson/Dipo are good rebounders for their position as well.

Making the right pass to an open player who makes a shot is not inherently selfish. Leaving a position beneficial to the team to garner personal statistics is. Harden absolutely does hold the ball too much. They both do. But its a matter of efficiency. RWB shoots .539TS%. The league avg is .544. Harden is .616. I actually think it would be better for Westbrook to pass MORE.

Giannis is a great example of players who try to do the right thing and why I believe basketball is better than it was when I was a kid. His mistakes are youthful pride mistakes. Trying to block a shot he has no chance of blocking, etc. Once he learns to minimize those issues he will be a generational talent.

Its literally your position that until I can separate out all the rebounds Westbrook gives by giving up team position to achieve his personal feat I cannot argue fundamental truths about basketball, that rebounding is a team directive and everyone must do their part. I am not a video coordinator. I am CERTAIN there is plenty of video evidence out there or exactly what you are denying. I'm just not going to put in the work of putting it together. That doesn't mean that I cannot cling to fundamental basketball truths.

Here is one stat that jumped out at me:

CAREER Def Rebounding %- 13.0%
2016-17 Def Rebounding %- 26.1%

Are you are telling me he hasn't altered his rebounding process and isn't changing his location to get to rebounds he shouldn't be getting to? Or that the ball has just been bouncing to him more?

So, you can't actually back anything up? Because it seems like you can't.

I've said before this is what they plan on him doing. His numbers are what they are because they want him grabbing those rebounds instead of the bigs. If you think the coaches are idiots for doing it tell them, but there's actual empirical evidence this leads to better possessions which you never addressed and only continue to make claims you can't back up. They want him to because it helps the team. Just like making a pass. And if you think he needs to pass more, I would suggest you look at his teammates.

Edit again: And per NBAWOWY:

Westbrook on/Adams off:
http://nbawowy.com/3vawgwrzhze#/3vawgwrzhze

Team Rebounding at 55%

Westbrook off:
http://nbawowy.com/#/00kfbmxg65no
Team Rebounding at 47%

I have no earthly idea what you are attempting to show. Because I cannot get Wowy to show me anything in those scenarios. I only get RWB's stats over the season. OKC IS down 5.1% on rebounding rate year over year. But they have obviously had significant personnel changes. 5% is a BIG redux though.

If the coaches are literally saying that he should leave his man, putting the team at a significantly higher risk of giving up an ORB so he can get the reb and take off I would tell you that is a really suspect strategic decision that sounds more based on making him happy than increasing your odds of winning.

[bondom34]

I have no earthly idea what you are attempting to show. Because I cannot get Wowy to show me anything in those scenarios. I only get RWB's stats over the season. OKC IS down 5.1% on rebounding rate year over year. But they have obviously had significant personnel changes. 5% is a BIG redux though.

If the coaches are literally saying that he should leave his man, putting the team at a significantly higher risk of giving up an ORB so he can get the reb and take off I would tell you that is a really suspect strategic decision that sounds more based on making him happy than increasing your odds of winning.

Go to the team tab and rebounding.

I posted the numbers showing it helps. You never addressed that.

Edit: Also Adams rebounder % is nearly identical to last year. Kanter's has dropped. Ibaka is gone, maybe that's a reason?

[asdfgh]

So the 3 best players in the NBA used to play for the same team. Amazing.

[mtron929]

Look. I will just provide a simple argument. In a free throw miss, usually point guards do not get all the defensive rebounds. And it really does not impact the game on who gets these rebounds. However, it seems like Westbrook seems to get a lot of these for the Thunder. Why? Because I would only have to assume that he would want to get his rebound totals high to enhance the chances of getting a triple double.

Or because it helps the team? Or nah that's too simple.

How does it help the team if he is trying to get a lot of the defensive rebounds on free throw misses? At the very least, he can cut these down and boost up Steven Adam's stats by trying to make him a double/double guy.

[bondom34]

Look. I will just provide a simple argument. In a free throw miss, usually point guards do not get all the defensive rebounds. And it really does not impact the game on who gets these rebounds. However, it seems like Westbrook seems to get a lot of these for the Thunder. Why? Because I would only have to assume that he would want to get his rebound totals high to enhance the chances of getting a triple double.

Or because it helps the team? Or nah that's too simple.

How does it help the team if he is trying to get a lot of the defensive rebounds on free throw misses? At the very least, he can cut these down and boost up Steven Adam's stats by trying to make him a double/double guy.

Because its helping if they want to start a fast break, and none of the bigs can pass.

How does it hurt?

[mtron929]

I mean, so you think all of this is happening organically? When Kobe had a string of 50+ point games, there was nothing organic about it. He knew that he had a streak going and wanted to keep up the streak. Same with Westbrook. I have to assume that he is hyper conscious of this triple double headline and is making a big effort to beef up his rebounds since that is the toughest one for a point guard to average 10+. It almost seems like the team has to kind of give him some of these rebounds for him to average 10+ and that is what is happening.

I think it is a game plan to have him rebound the ball and push it up court, which I've said a few times (and has been shown a lot more). At the same time he's helping the team and you're claiming he's stat padding and it hurts the team which is categorically false. I have no clue what Kobe has to do with this, and what Westbrook is doing has been shown by multiple outlets to be helping the team, yet your claim is the opposite when there's no proof of it empirically. If you'd provide proof of him hurting the team (which would be great because they've won 6 straight and all are triple doubles), I'd be all for it. Yet you posted 2 videos that don't show anything while his defense and rebounding numbers are great. You also fail to mention that Harden is in a system totally built around him racking up assists because he has the ball in his hands more than Westbrook does, has similar to worse defense, doesn't rebound as well, and has better team support offensively. You've provided no real evidence itt that I've seen and have made pretty false claims at the same time.

By the way, stat padding is not all or nothing. Russell can have 8 rebounds that are legit good rebounds where he played the game the right away and 2-3 rebounds where he was being selfish. Then, he is padding his total from 8 (legit) to 10-11. With Harden and Curry, there is not a distinct goal that they are chasing as one of the holy grails in basketball. For Westbrook, this season is a chase for the triple double average and here is a difference between you and I. You seem to think that he doesn't care about achieving this goal at all (and it is just happening organically) whereas I tend to think that he is hyper conscious of this and striving to achieve this goal. And to that end, I just am not impressed by his rebounding totals as other people seem to be.

[bondom34]

By the way, stat padding is not all or nothing. Russell can have 8 rebounds that are legit good rebounds where he played the game the right away and 2-3 rebounds where he was being selfish. Then, he is padding his total from 8 (legit) to 10-11. With Harden and Curry, there is not a distinct goal that is seen as one of the holy grails in basketball. For Westbrook, this season is a chase for the triple double average and here is a difference between you and I. You seem to think that he doesn't care about achieving this goal at all (and it is just happening organically) whereas I tend to think that he is hyper conscious of this and striving to achieve this goal. And to that end, I just am not impressed by his rebounding totals as other people seem to be.

What evidence is there that there is some chase? You seem to think that that is more important than winning, and that's what he cares about. It literally is the game plan. Just like Harden dominating the ball, yet he's praised and Westbrook villified. Its a dumb narrative with no evidence for it.

I've posted all sorts of evidence against it and all you reply with is what you "think" with no evidence. Harden is getting the benefit of his system, as he should. Westbrook is being called a stat padder because why? Because you don't like him or because you have a false narrative. Because its been proven patently false.

[mtron929]

By the way, stat padding is not all or nothing. Russell can have 8 rebounds that are legit good rebounds where he played the game the right away and 2-3 rebounds where he was being selfish. Then, he is padding his total from 8 (legit) to 10-11. With Harden and Curry, there is not a distinct goal that is seen as one of the holy grails in basketball. For Westbrook, this season is a chase for the triple double average and here is a difference between you and I. You seem to think that he doesn't care about achieving this goal at all (and it is just happening organically) whereas I tend to think that he is hyper conscious of this and striving to achieve this goal. And to that end, I just am not impressed by his rebounding totals as other people seem to be.

What evidence is there that there is some chase? You seem to think that that is more important than winning, and that's what he cares about. It literally is the game plan. Just like Harden dominating the ball, yet he's praised and Westbrook villified. Its a dumb narrative with no evidence for it.

I've posted all sorts of evidence against it and all you reply with is what you "think" with no evidence. Harden is getting the benefit of his system, as he should. Westbrook is being called a stat padder because why? Because you don't like him or because you have a false narrative. Because its been proven patently false.

Well, I am not sure what kind of evidence you will accept. And again, I like watching him play. He is exciting. But he seems to be a selfish player. Certainly he is no Tim Duncan/Steve Nash/Dirk Nowitizki as far as I am concern, and more like Kobe Bryant in his mentality. When it comes to winning, I never implied that he does not care about winning. As for the evidences..

1. video footages of him letting his man go and floating around in the paint to get defensive rebounds.
2. his incredible (remember he is a veteran now) increase in the defensive rebounding rate this year compared to all of the previous years.
3. psychology of humans and competitors when it comes to records: e.g. we have no evidence that Kobe chased for strings of 50+ point games in a row, but we can surmise from human psychology that he would have done so.


I think at this, I will leave this topic. We can revisit this later on in the season (e.g. all star break) as we get more data on what he is doing with rebounds and I will be very much open-minded to change my stance if evidence does not support what I am saying.

[bondom34]

By the way, stat padding is not all or nothing. Russell can have 8 rebounds that are legit good rebounds where he played the game the right away and 2-3 rebounds where he was being selfish. Then, he is padding his total from 8 (legit) to 10-11. With Harden and Curry, there is not a distinct goal that is seen as one of the holy grails in basketball. For Westbrook, this season is a chase for the triple double average and here is a difference between you and I. You seem to think that he doesn't care about achieving this goal at all (and it is just happening organically) whereas I tend to think that he is hyper conscious of this and striving to achieve this goal. And to that end, I just am not impressed by his rebounding totals as other people seem to be.

What evidence is there that there is some chase? You seem to think that that is more important than winning, and that's what he cares about. It literally is the game plan. Just like Harden dominating the ball, yet he's praised and Westbrook villified. Its a dumb narrative with no evidence for it.

I've posted all sorts of evidence against it and all you reply with is what you "think" with no evidence. Harden is getting the benefit of his system, as he should. Westbrook is being called a stat padder because why? Because you don't like him or because you have a false narrative. Because its been proven patently false.

Well, I am not sure what kind of evidence you will accept. And again, I like watching him play. He is exciting. But he seems to be a selfish player. Certainly he is no Tim Duncan/Steve Nash/Dirk Nowitizki as far as I am concern, and more like Kobe Bryant in his mentality. When it comes to winning, I never implied that he does not care about winning. As for the evidences..

1. video footages of him letting his man go and floating around in the paint to get defensive rebounds.
2. his incredible (remember he is a veteran now) increase in the defensive rebounding rate this year compared to all of the previous years.
3. psychology of humans and competitors when it comes to records: e.g. we have no evidence that Kobe chased for strings of 50+ point games in a row, but we can surmise from human psychology that he would have done so.

Feels over reals is your argument. I want statistical evidence he's harming the team in doing anything here. Because I've posted a pile proving hes not and you came back with nothing but a picked youtube clip I could find any player doing.
I think at this, I will leave this topic. We can revisit this later on in the season (e.g. all star break) as we get more data on what he is doing with rebounds and I will be very much open-minded to change my stance if evidence does not support what I am saying.

I posted:

Nylon Calc article with proof he helps the fast break.

on/off showing he helps rebounding.

RPM showing he's better defensively than Harden or Curry so far.

WOWY showing it has nothing to do with Adams.

Rebound rates for Adams not decreasing.


You posted:

Youtube?

Sorry but this is the usual GB agenda laced drivel that chases people to the PC board, because people there actually use evidence instead of "I think".

[Dadouv47]

By the way, stat padding is not all or nothing. Russell can have 8 rebounds that are legit good rebounds where he played the game the right away and 2-3 rebounds where he was being selfish. Then, he is padding his total from 8 (legit) to 10-11. With Harden and Curry, there is not a distinct goal that is seen as one of the holy grails in basketball. For Westbrook, this season is a chase for the triple double average and here is a difference between you and I. You seem to think that he doesn't care about achieving this goal at all (and it is just happening organically) whereas I tend to think that he is hyper conscious of this and striving to achieve this goal. And to that end, I just am not impressed by his rebounding totals as other people seem to be.

What evidence is there that there is some chase? You seem to think that that is more important than winning, and that's what he cares about. It literally is the game plan. Just like Harden dominating the ball, yet he's praised and Westbrook villified. Its a dumb narrative with no evidence for it.

I've posted all sorts of evidence against it and all you reply with is what you "think" with no evidence. Harden is getting the benefit of his system, as he should. Westbrook is being called a stat padder because why? Because you don't like him or because you have a false narrative. Because its been proven patently false.

Well, I am not sure what kind of evidence you will accept. And again, I like watching him play. He is exciting. But he seems to be a selfish player. Certainly he is no Tim Duncan/Steve Nash/Dirk Nowitizki as far as I am concern, and more like Kobe Bryant in his mentality. When it comes to winning, I never implied that he does not care about winning. As for the evidences..

1. video footages of him letting his man go and floating around in the paint to get defensive rebounds.
2. his incredible (remember he is a veteran now) increase in the defensive rebounding rate this year compared to all of the previous years.
3. psychology of humans and competitors when it comes to records: e.g. we have no evidence that Kobe chased for strings of 50+ point games in a row, but we can surmise from human psychology that he would have done so.


I think at this, I will leave this topic. We can revisit this later on in the season (e.g. all star break) as we get more data on what he is doing with rebounds and I will be very much open-minded to change my stance if evidence does not support what I am saying.

Maybe because it's the first time he's playing without Ibaka and Durant who are great rebounders ? And that we are rulling a totally new system? That's maybe the reason...or he's selfish like u prefer to think.
But hey, maybe he also miss on purpose his own shots to grap some offensive rebounds as well?

Of course the new system advantages his defensive rebounds. That doesn't mean that he's playing selfish and his goal is to have better stats. If that was the case he wouldn't take so many difficult shots ( even more than before because no Durant) and having so so bad shooting percentages this year.

[Infinite Llamas]

If Lebron had a season where he was averaging a triple standard, people would be calling him the GOAT. If Giannis was averaging one, people would call him a top-3 player. Westbrook is doing it and people want to discredit him though, even if the anecdotal evidence that his triple doubles typically leads to wins is being discounted. I know they haven't had the hardest schedule, but they are winning right now...

Avery Bradley had a rebound rate about 5.5 going into this season but his rating is up to a 12.0. He's routinely crashing the glass and it is by design. when you lose a key rebounder (Sullinger) you need a collected effort to pick up the slack. OKC lost Durant and Ibaka who both grabbed a bunch of rebounds so it makes sense to have an explosive leaper like Westbrook go for them.

[Triples333]

If Lebron had a season where he was averaging a triple standard, people would be calling him the GOAT. If Giannis was averaging one, people would call him a top-3 player. Westbrook is doing it and people want to discredit him though, even if the anecdotal evidence that his triple doubles typically leads to wins is being discounted. I know they haven't had the hardest schedule, but they are winning right now...

Avery Bradley had a rebound rate about 5.5 going into this season but his rating is up to a 12.0. He's routinely crashing the glass and it is by design. when you lose a key rebounder (Sullinger) you need a collected effort to pick up the slack. OKC lost Durant and Ibaka who both grabbed a bunch of rebounds so it makes sense to have an explosive leaper like Westbrook go for them.

"triple-double". As long as the acknowledgement is that we're willing to give MVP to a PG for their rebounding prowess, sure, have at it guys. I do agree that the #'s and sounds of the word are cool, so there is that.

Also, people want to "discredit him"? Never in my life have I heard of a 6 seed at the forefront of an MVP discussion. But here we are with Westbrook.

[baldur]

If Lebron had a season where he was averaging a triple standard, people would be calling him the GOAT. If Giannis was averaging one, people would call him a top-3 player. Westbrook is doing it and people want to discredit him though, even if the anecdotal evidence that his triple doubles typically leads to wins is being discounted. I know they haven't had the hardest schedule, but they are winning right now...

Avery Bradley had a rebound rate about 5.5 going into this season but his rating is up to a 12.0. He's routinely crashing the glass and it is by design. when you lose a key rebounder (Sullinger) you need a collected effort to pick up the slack. OKC lost Durant and Ibaka who both grabbed a bunch of rebounds so it makes sense to have an explosive leaper like Westbrook go for them.

"triple-double". As long as the acknowledgement is that we're willing to give MVP to a PG for their rebounding prowess, sure, have at it guys. I do agree that the #'s and sounds of the word are cool, so there is that.

Also, people want to "discredit him"? Never in my life have I heard of a 6 seed at the forefront of an MVP discussion. But here we are with Westbrook.

why are you so stubborn? at least let the people include harden and westbrook in mvp discussions. you never heard of a 6 seed at the forefront of an mvp discussion. ok, how many times have your heard of a triple double averaging player in the regular season?

[ChartFiction]

Cringey how hard people are trying to sling mud at Westbrook. No actual solid reasoning, they just have to denigrate it somehow for whatever reason. People have posted his raw numbers. When people say that doesn't lead to wins, people have posted the team's record when Westbrook has a TD. When they say that's not just because of him, people have posted his on/off numbers. Every single fact points to him being insanely effective this season. Just stop trying so hard and let it happen.