Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again)

[eyeatoma]

Here is some of your points why Embiid lost to Jokic

Media
Race
Because Embiid hasn't won one yet not fair

What else you got?

Having one of the best seasons of all time and leading the league in scoring.

I sense a condescending and dismissive tone to what I've said as well as to Embiid's accomplishments. Let's not act like he didn't just have an all time great season.

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Jokic had an even greater season than Embiid had. What else you got?

Not much else as you don't seem to be very open minded.

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[Side beard]

Jokic is nearing that Harden/Westbrook type of impact on the game. Big numbers, no success.

[Gusto1903]

I've said it before, the advanced stats trend has overtaken the media, and it is their sole focus. I'm fine with it being use just a little, but it's all that I've read over the last few years. NBA players have played the game, and are just as qualified to determine how valuable a player is to a team. Ofcourse there are going to be times where they don't get it right, and it's questionable, no system is perfect, but the current iteration is a little ridiculous. Especially as contracts are determined on this stuff.

Here is some of your points why Embiid lost to Jokic

Media
Race
Because Embiid hasn't won one yet not fair

What else you got?

Having one of the best seasons of all time and leading the league in scoring.

I sense a condescending and dismissive tone to what I've said as well as to Embiid's accomplishments. Let's not act like he didn't just have an all time great season.

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How do you define "one of the best seasons of all time"?

[AleksandarN]

Having one of the best seasons of all time and leading the league in scoring.

I sense a condescending and dismissive tone to what I've said as well as to Embiid's accomplishments. Let's not act like he didn't just have an all time great season.

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Jokic had an even greater season than Embiid had. What else you got?

Not much else as you don't seem to be very open minded.

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I am listening. Btw if you look at my posting history I have given praise to Embiid many times and even said that if any three won it I would be ok with it. So let's talk about it. I am way more open about it then you have demonstrated throughout this MVP season.

[AleksandarN]

Jokic is nearing that Harden/Westbrook type of impact on the game. Big numbers, no success.

Context matters. If next year for one Jokic doesn't lead the Nuggets with a fully team to at least WCF then yes.

[losmi]

it just dawned on me that embiid won the scoring title.
It seems premium seeding and the scoring designation is usually enough to clinch,
but its a dangerous precedent that people are overvaluing other things that matter less.

So we got embiid , scoring titile and his team 2 games from the top seed and then jokic is 16 games behind and didnt even win his own division.

The aesthetics of this is just bad but there has been a precedent of people overvaluing things while disparaging or discrediting more key components.
Its like 2 different planets and how guys like gobert, draymond green and evan mobley get massively overrated.

recently makes me think if i even enjoy the nba product anymore.
when my team wins but plays a bad style of ball, i dis enjoy it.
People act how could i dislike my team winning. An artful game has become ugly to its core.

4th seed is not premium.

Correlation between scoring title and MVP is weak.

The aesthetics of giving the MVP to someone whose entire game is based on flopping would be much worse.

[Jhawk03]

Congrats to Jokic and all, but after what he did to Morris, even my dad lost all respect for him. It shouldn't matter, but it does because it's a terrible representation of an MVP.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I just want to add a little comment, as someone loves to call the guys supporting Jokic on this "nerds".
Nerds are guys who might be not athletic and socially inept, but extremely analytical and smart. We already witnessed how those nerds helped change the game in the last decade pointing out things the "cool kids" didn't see (and some of them still don't). We know the most successful teams and coaches use them (I remember a very telling interview by Spoelstra and there's that amazing article from the NYC about Battier).
And we know those guys watch more games than anybody else, know even the most marginal players and spend a lot of time trying to understand the nuances and trends of the game, unlike the "cool guys" who often just watch the highlights.

Just remind me, why listening to nerds should be a problem?

___
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[AussieCeltic]

Having one of the best seasons of all time and leading the league in scoring.

I sense a condescending and dismissive tone to what I've said as well as to Embiid's accomplishments. Let's not act like he didn't just have an all time great season.

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Jokic had an even greater season than Embiid had. What else you got?

Not much else as you don't seem to be very open minded.

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Literally everyone is being open minded but you. Give us some legit reasons.

If it’s because he averaged 3 more points and his team had 3 more wins then you’ve already lost the argument.

[Big J]

I just want to add a little comment, as someone loves to call the guys supporting Jokic on this "nerds".
Nerd are guys who might not be athletic and socially inept, but extremely analytical and smart. We already witnessed how those nerds helped change the game in the last decade pointing out things the "cool kids" didn't see (and some of them still don't). We know the most successful teams and coaches use them (I remember a very telling interview by Spoelstra and there's that amazing article from the NYC about Battier).
And we know those guys watch more games than anybody else, know even the most marginal players and spend a lot of time trying to understand the nuances and trends of the game, unlike the "cool guys" who often just watch the highlights.

Just remind me, why listening to nerds should be a problem?

___
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Because nerds themselves are losers so they naturally place less value on wins and losses.

[AleksandarN]

I just want to add a little comment, as someone loves to call the guys supporting Jokic on this "nerds".
Nerd are guys who might not be athletic and socially inept, but extremely analytical and smart. We already witnessed how those nerds helped change the game in the last decade pointing out things the "cool kids" didn't see (and some of them still don't). We know the most successful teams and coaches use them (I remember a very telling interview by Spoelstra and there's that amazing article from the NYC about Battier).
And we know those guys watch more games than anybody else, know even the most marginal players and spend a lot of time trying to understand the nuances and trends of the game, unlike the "cool guys" who often just watch the highlights.

Just remind me, why listening to nerds should be a problem?

___
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Because nerds themselves are losers so they naturally place less value on wins and losses.

Your game is slipping.

[BelgradeNugget]

Are we having amnesia about Embiid again? Before Harden trade everyone praised him for carrying 76ers without Simmons. Legit. After Harden trade there was no more Simmons, goals were higher. Finish season strong. Secure top seed in east. So, how he finished season?

Game against Jokic was pretty advertised for him as chance to show he is MVP. - Lost at home
Game against Giannis - Lost at home
Game against Miami direct competitor for 1st in east - load management, him and Harden, they basically didn't show up for fight so Maxey won it for them
Of the 4 teams fighting for 1st in the east 76ers finished last - disappointment again

So how much excuses we can have for one player?
Please, fans of Tatum and Booker join in with real arguments so we can have serious conversation here.

[eyeatoma]

Jokic had an even greater season than Embiid had. What else you got?

Not much else as you don't seem to be very open minded.

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Literally everyone is being open minded but you. Give us some legit reasons.

If it’s because he averaged 3 more points and his team had 3 more wins then you’ve already lost the argument.

I've given more reasons than that, you just don't like them. I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

[RalphWiggum]

I had him at 9 to 1 to win MVP on Bet365 before they stole my futures bet when sports gambling became legal in Ontario.

I'm absolutely livid.

[Richard Miller]

I just want to add a little comment, as someone loves to call the guys supporting Jokic on this "nerds".
Nerd are guys who might not be athletic and socially inept, but extremely analytical and smart. We already witnessed how those nerds helped change the game in the last decade pointing out things the "cool kids" didn't see (and some of them still don't). We know the most successful teams and coaches use them (I remember a very telling interview by Spoelstra and there's that amazing article from the NYC about Battier).
And we know those guys watch more games than anybody else, know even the most marginal players and spend a lot of time trying to understand the nuances and trends of the game, unlike the "cool guys" who often just watch the highlights.

Just remind me, why listening to nerds should be a problem?

___
Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

Because nerds themselves are losers so they naturally place less value on wins and losses.

Are you 13?

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I just want to add a little comment, as someone loves to call the guys supporting Jokic on this "nerds".
Nerd are guys who might not be athletic and socially inept, but extremely analytical and smart. We already witnessed how those nerds helped change the game in the last decade pointing out things the "cool kids" didn't see (and some of them still don't). We know the most successful teams and coaches use them (I remember a very telling interview by Spoelstra and there's that amazing article from the NYC about Battier).
And we know those guys watch more games than anybody else, know even the most marginal players and spend a lot of time trying to understand the nuances and trends of the game, unlike the "cool guys" who often just watch the highlights.

Just remind me, why listening to nerds should be a problem?

___
Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

Because nerds themselves are losers so they naturally place less value on wins and losses.

actually the kind of people we're talking about are very rarely "losers", unless you're an HS kid and you don't know what you're looking at.
they normally have successful careers and well paid jobs thanks to their intelligence rather then their athletic abilities and/or social/political skills

[BelgradeNugget]

Are we having amnesia about Embiid again? Before Harden trade everyone praised him for carrying 76ers without Simmons. Legit. After Harden trade there was no more Simmons, goals were higher. Finish season strong. Secure top seed in east. So, how he finished season?

Game against Jokic was pretty advertised for him as chance to show he is MVP. - Lost at home
Game against Giannis - Lost at home
Game against Miami direct competitor for 1st in east - load management, him and Harden, they basically didn't show up for fight so Maxey won it for them
Of the 4 teams fighting for 1st in the east 76ers finished last - disappointment again

So how much excuses we can have for one player?
Please, fans of Tatum and Booker join in with real arguments so we can have serious conversation here.

Ups I forgot, game against Brooklyn and Simmons, with Harden, bad blood, to show who won trade. - humiliated at home

[UcanUwill]

Except they didn't.

Harden had 3 seasons with an OBPM over +8.0. Jordan had 7.

Harden had one season with a BPM over +10.0. Jordan had 7.

Harden had a higher TS% multiple seasons, sure, but so did two dozen other players this decade. You can't just compare TS% across eras without context.

Fortunately, we are comparing two players who are the same age, play the same position, and play in the same era here. It's a straightforward comparison, and Jokic had the better season.

These anti analytics guys always remind me of that Futurama scene - I don't understand evolution, and I protect my kids from understanding it. Just replace the word evolution to analytics, its sad that the most ignorant ones are often the loudest.

https://youtu.be/9zw3UnEWgRI

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You couldn't be more caricature if you tried. Morey didnt even disclose what metrics he used, and obviously he used limited metrics, I didnt know Morey = whole analytic science. Personally, not sure how analytics compare players between different eras, obviously they have to have some sort of alignment and calculate different production because of different styles, where Morey simply used unaligned straight stat, which doesn't take context of any sort into account, if anything, this just shows personal opinion rather than highly studied analytic. Ignorance strikes again.

[hippesthippo]

I've said it before, the advanced stats trend has overtaken the media, and it is their sole focus. I'm fine with it being use just a little, but it's all that I've read over the last few years. NBA players have played the game, and are just as qualified to determine how valuable a player is to a team. Ofcourse there are going to be times where they don't get it right, and it's questionable, no system is perfect, but the current iteration is a little ridiculous. Especially as contracts are determined on this stuff.

Here is some of your points why Embiid lost to Jokic

Media
Race
Because Embiid hasn't won one yet not fair

What else you got?

Having one of the best seasons of all time and leading the league in scoring.

I sense a condescending and dismissive tone to what I've said as well as to Embiid's accomplishments. Let's not act like he didn't just have an all time great season.

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It only took you 44 pages to notice that tone?

Yes, 3 players had all-time great seasons this year. All 3 were on teams with damn near the same record. It was close, but Jokic was the clear winner. Giannis looked like he was coasting at times and Jokic's style of play is far more aesthetically pleasing whilst also being slightly more effective than Embiid's.

[UcanUwill]

Jokic is nearing that Harden/Westbrook type of impact on the game. Big numbers, no success.

How do you measure that, cause his team lost. Its a team sport, seriously why it is so hard to understand that, how many people in history guaranteed team success just by their own singular talent? Maybe 3 or 4, like LeBron, Wilt, MJ, Russell? Why it is so hard to understand that you can have most impacful guy, but still lose, there are other 9 players on the court and players do not play 48 minutes straight to begin with.