NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sports

[Pointgod]

Can someone explain to me how "white privilege" is responsible for black culture being full of self-destructive violent crime? Please, do connect the dots for me. All I see is a bunch of pathetic excuses from awful human beings.

Why don't you just say what you really want to say and get it over with already instead of dancing around it by continually posing this loaded ass question as if you actually want (or would even accept) the answer.

I'm not sure what whacky conspiracy theory you have floating around in your head, but I'm asking a question because I'd like an answer. Why is everyone dodging it? Is it because they don't like the answer?

I'm don't believe that you're actually looking for a serious answer. You seem more like a troll who is just looking to spew your racist bs. But black people aren't any more violent than most other races. If you look at the history of the US it's white people that have been the most violent, sadistic and downright psychotic people. It gets sugar coated, but the history of racism in the US is downright demonic. It's been documented that white people would chop off body parts of black people, burn them alive, rip out their innards etc for no reason at all other than the fact they were black. The word picnic comes from a time when white people would form mobs with their families and look for black people to murder. They'd bring their kids, food and cut off body parts as souvenirs. Could you imagine how messed up you'd be psychologically knowing that you could be murdered just walking down the street for something as arbitrary as lets say your eye color. Men, women and children, none of them were spared. Research the town of Greenwood in Tulsa Oklahoma. And you want to say well that happened a long time times have changed, this was going on just 50 years ago some of these people that committed these atrocities are still alive, a lot of them have still have children that they raised to be racist and these children have grandchildren still living today. So you're kidding yourself if you think that there is a strong undercurrent of racism in America today.

So this brings me to a question, let's say that black people had equal access to education, weren't subject to daily harassment and the threat of violence and weren't the target of discriminatory laws by the US government(it's pathetic that a government targeted its own people), but stayed segregated in their own communities where would be happening now?
a) There would be less violence, poverty and a much smaller gap in income disparity between white and black
b) The black community would be thriving and would be doing better on average than their white counterparts
c) The black community would be worse off

There's a cause and effect to all of this. Black people didn't just suddenly wake up and start killing themselves. There's nothing inherently wrong with black people, otherwise black people across all class lines would be violent. There's a historic, political and systemic reason that there are larger number of black people in poverty which leads to more violence. The answer to solving the problem isn't to pull up their pants or stop listening to rap music (white kids are the largest consumers of rap music, following this logic they would commit violent acts and be self destructive). The answer to solving the problem is multifaceted and involves a paradigm shift on multiple dimensions.

[JMac1]

This is what many white people think, especially the Fox News types:

Take up the White Man’s burden—

Send forth the best ye breed—

Go send your sons to exile

To serve your captives' need

To wait in heavy harness

On fluttered folk and wild—

Your new-caught, sullen peoples,

Half devil and half child

Take up the White Man’s burden

In patience to abide

To veil the threat of terror

And check the show of pride;

By open speech and simple

An hundred times made plain

To seek another’s profit

And work another’s gain

Take up the White Man’s burden—

And reap his old reward:

The blame of those ye better

The hate of those ye guard—

The cry of hosts ye humour

(Ah slowly) to the light:

"Why brought ye us from bondage,

“Our loved Egyptian night?”

Take up the White Man’s burden-

Have done with childish days-

The lightly proffered laurel,

The easy, ungrudged praise.

Comes now, to search your manhood

Through all the thankless years,

Cold-edged with dear-bought wisdom,

The judgment of your peers!

Source: Rudyard Kipling, “The White Man’s Burden: The United States & The Philippine Islands, 1899.” Rudyard Kipling’s Verse: Definitive Edition (Garden City, New York: Doubleday, 1929).

This is what black people experienced:
Hubert Harrison

THE BLACK MAN'S BURDEN (A REPLY TO RUDYARD KIPLING)

from When Africa Awakes (New York, 1920)


Take up the Black Man�s burden---

Send forth the worst ye breed,

And bind our sons in shackles

To serve your selfish greed;

To wait in heavy harness

Be-devilled and beguiled

Until the Fates remove you

From a world you have defiled.



Take up the black Man�s burden---

Your lies may still abide

To veil the threat of terror

And check our racial pride;

Your cannon, church and courthouse

May still our sons constrain

To seek the white man�s profit

And work the white man�s gain.



Take up the Black Man�s burden---

Reach out and hog the earth,

And leave your workers hungry

In the country of their birth;

Then, when your goal is nearest,

The end for which you fought

Watch other�s trained efficiency

Bring all your hope to naught.



Take up the Black Man�s burden---

Reduce their chiefs and kings

To toil of serf and sweeper

The lot of common things:

Sodden their soil with slaughter,

Ravish their lands with lead;

Go, sign them with your living

And seal them with your dead.



Take up the Black Man�s burden---

And reap your old reward;

The curse of those ye cozen,

The hate of those ye barred

From your Canadian cities

And your Australian ports;

And when they ask for meat and drink

Go, girdle them with forts.



Take up the Black Man�s burden---

Ye cannot stoop to less.

Will not your fraud of "freedom"

Still cloak your greediness?

But, by the gods ye worship,

And by the deeds ye do,

These silent, sullen peoples

Shall weigh your gods and you.



Take up the Black Man�s burden---

Until the tail is told,

Until the balances of hate

Bear down the beam of gold.

And while ye wait remember

The justice, though delayed

Will hold you as her debtor

Till the Black Man�s debt is paid.

Hopefully this answered many of the why questions.

[wigglestrue]

It's just the fault of those ignorant poor whites, eh? Gee, you think maybe the left's insatiable fetish for pushing a narrative of fundamental racial divides has anything to do with poor whites not realizing that they and poor blacks share almost all the same problems? And why do most poor blacks also fail to realize the same thing? Are they also ignorant racists? Or are they also being conditioned as a long-term strategy by ideologues to perceive racial conflicts ahead of and instead of class ones? Hmm?

I'll ask you the same question I asked Bill. How much time do you spend pondering the possibility that you have become the enemy without realizing it?

I can't take someone who screams of the lefty or leftist agenda seriously. It reeks of "I believe everything the morons on FOX News scream at me!" What is exactly the left's agenda? "Gee, let's treat people fairly and equitably provide them a basic level of dignity that all human beings deserve" Yeah that's a horrible thing to do....

And before you go on a pointless diatribe I'll admit that there are people that are racist on the left. Now rage on!

I'm not a right winger. Fox News is wretched. The right wing does not have a copyright on reasons to criticize the left, thankfully. Just like the left thankfully does not have a monopoly on opposing racism, even though they all still think they do...in part because they virtually did, because for long time the left was virtually alone in the fight against racism, to the everlasting shame of nearly every other political collection of Americans alive at the time.

But that worm has turned. It's twenty-*******-fifteen, lol, not 1935 or 1956 or 1977 or even 1999. American society has dramatically changed, mostly for the better. The left won some great battles, but now doesn't like the fact that the high ground they once owned is getting lower and lower relative to the rest of society having caught up most of the way. The left would prefer to keep thinking of American society as just as diseased with racism as it used to be, so that they can keep their role as diagnosticians of the sick, champions of the oppressed, so that their revolutionary schemes are still urgently and perpetually required. They're so used to race issues being their moral bread-and-butter, I guess, they can hardly even bring themselves to realize when they've won. Still gotta feel like everyone needs their help, even when their remedies wind up making **** worse.

The left's self-described agenda still does usually sound great, though, at first. Once upon a time, I was a leftist. But the left's agenda goes beyond the platitudes you mentioned and entails a forceful reordering of society, the same defining and sorting and ranking of people into groups based on superficial identity markers like race and sexuality, etc. Same damn basic **** the right wing has always done but with nicer intentions and a more sophisticated complex of theories.

Those racist leftists do exist, but it's not just the liberals who secretly resent black people or hipsters who mock black culture to entertain themselves in private. It's also leftists like Neutral and Bill, whose repugnant racist logic is masked by those inarguable platitudes, rooted precisely in their warped idea of seeking racial justice by replacing one old set of stereotypes with a whole new set of stereotypes. Sounds like antiracism, is called antiracism...but the logic is still racist. THAT is what enrages me, their racism, not their leftism.

[JMac1]

Edward Morel
The Black Man's Burden
(1903)


Excerpts from the Original Electronic Text at the web site of the Modern History Sourcebook.

Kiplings poem The White Man's Burden of 1899 presented one view of imperialism. Edward Morel, a British journalist in the Belgian Congo, drew attention to the abuses of imperialism in 1903. The Congo [for a period known in modern times as Zaïre] was perhaps the most famously exploitative of the European colonies.

It is [the Africans] who carry the 'Black man's burden'. They have not withered away before the white man's occupation. Indeed ... Africa has ultimately absorbed within itself every Caucasian and, for that matter, every Semitic invader, too. In hewing out for himself a fixed abode in Africa, the white man has massacred the African in heaps. The African has survived, and it is well for the white settlers that he has....

What the partial occupation of his soil by the white man has failed to do; what the mapping out of European political 'spheres of influence' has failed to do; what the Maxim and the rifle, the slave gang, labour in the bowels of the earth and the lash, have failed to do; what imported measles, smallpox and syphilis have failed to do; whatever the overseas slave trade failed to do, the power of modern capitalistic exploitation, assisted by modern engines of destruction, may yet succeed in accomplishing.

For from the evils of the latter, scientifically applied and enforced, there is no escape for the African. Its destructive effects are not spasmodic: they are permanent. In its permanence resides its fatal consequences. It kills not the body merely, but the soul. It breaks the spirit. It attacks the African at every turn, from every point of vantage. It wrecks his polity, uproots him from the land, invades his family life, destroys his natural pursuits and occupations, claims his whole time, enslaves him in his own home....

. . . In Africa, especially in tropical Africa, which a capitalistic imperialism threatens and has, in part, already devastated, man is incapable of reacting against unnatural conditions. In those regions man is engaged in a perpetual struggle against disease and an exhausting climate, which tells heavily upon child­bearing; and there is no scientific machinery for salving the weaker members of the community. The African of the tropics is capable of tremendous physical labours. But he cannot accommodate himself to the European system of monotonous, uninterrupted labour, with its long and regular hours, involving, moreover, as it frequently does, severance from natural surroundings and nostalgia, the condition of melancholy resulting from separation from home, a malady to which the African is specially prone. Climatic conditions forbid it. When the system is forced upon him, the tropical African droops and dies.

Nor is violent physical opposition to abuse and injustice henceforth possible for the African in any part of Africa. His chances of effective resistance have been steadily dwindling with the increasing perfectibility in the killing power of modern armament....

Thus the African is really helpless against the material gods of the white man, as embodied in the trinity of imperialism, capitalistic exploitation, and militarism....

To reduce all the varied and picturesque and stimulating episodes in savage life to a dull routine of endless toil for uncomprehended ends, to dislocate social ties and disrupt social institutions; to stifle nascent desires and crush mental development; to graft upon primitive passions the annihilating evils of scientific slavery, and the bestial imaginings of civilized man, unrestrained by convention or law; in fine, to kill the soul in a people-this is a crime which transcends physical murder.

Education is a dangerous thing

[Bill Bradley]

It's just the fault of those ignorant poor whites, eh? Gee, you think maybe the left's insatiable fetish for pushing a narrative of fundamental racial divides has anything to do with poor whites not realizing that they and poor blacks share almost all the same problems? And why do most poor blacks also fail to realize the same thing? Are they also ignorant racists? Or are they also being conditioned as a long-term strategy by ideologues to perceive racial conflicts ahead of and instead of class ones? Hmm?

I'll ask you the same question I asked Bill. How much time do you spend pondering the possibility that you have become the enemy without realizing it?

I can't take someone who screams of the lefty or leftist agenda seriously. It reeks of "I believe everything the morons on FOX News scream at me!" What is exactly the left's agenda? "Gee, let's treat people fairly and equitably provide them a basic level of dignity that all human beings deserve" Yeah that's a horrible thing to do....

And before you go on a pointless diatribe I'll admit that there are people that are racist on the left. Now rage on!

I'm not a right winger. Fox News is wretched. The right wing does not have a copyright on reasons to criticize the left, thankfully. Just like the left thankfully does not have a monopoly on opposing racism, even though they all still think they do...in part because they virtually did, because for long time the left was virtually alone in the fight against racism, to the everlasting shame of nearly every other political collection of Americans alive at the time.

But that worm has turned. It's twenty-*******-fifteen, lol, not 1935 or 1956 or 1977 or even 1999. American society has dramatically changed, mostly for the better. The left won some great battles, but now doesn't like the fact that the high ground they once owned is getting lower and lower relative to the rest of society having caught up most of the way. The left would prefer to keep thinking of American society as just as diseased with racism as it used to be, so that they can keep their role as diagnosticians of the sick, champions of the oppressed, so that their revolutionary schemes are still urgently and perpetually required. They're so used to race issues being their moral bread-and-butter, I guess, they can hardly even bring themselves to realize when they've won. Still gotta feel like everyone needs their help, even when their remedies wind up making **** worse.

The left's self-described agenda still does usually sound great, though, at first. Once upon a time, I was a leftist. But the left's agenda goes beyond the platitudes you mentioned and entails a forceful reordering of society, the same defining and sorting and ranking of people into groups based on superficial identity markers like race and sexuality, etc. Same damn basic **** the right wing has always done but with nicer intentions and a more sophisticated complex of theories.

Those racist leftists do exist, but it's not just the liberals who secretly resent black people or hipsters who mock black culture to entertain themselves in private. It's also leftists like Neutral and Bill, whose repugnant racist logic is masked by those inarguable platitudes, rooted precisely in their warped idea of seeking racial justice by replacing one old set of stereotypes with a whole new set of stereotypes. Sounds like antiracism, is called antiracism...but the logic is still racist. THAT is what enrages me, their racism, not their leftism.

This is why I didn't respond to your other posts. This is a nonsensical, frankly a bit paranoid and conspiracy theory-like, rant that contains no substance whatsoever. I didn't want a time-wasting experience in your strange world. But since you keep referring to me in your posts in a derogatory way, here's my last post in this thread.

I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts about the Ferguson federal report. I'm sure that's just an isolated police department though, right? Of course there is no problem with racism towards minorities in this country in our institutions. Those of us who would suggest such a thing are just promoting a repugnant stereotype, right?

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/05/us/justic ... -scrutiny/

Ferguson's not the only city to get scathing federal report

By Faith Karimi and Devon Sayers, CNN

(CNN)The report is daunting, and it tears apart the Ferguson Police Department's systemic discrimination against blacks.

After a months-long investigation, federal investigators issued a scathing report Wednesday highlighting discriminatory and unconstitutional practices by law enforcement in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson.

And even though the Justice Department cleared Darren Wilson, a white former police officer, in the fatal shooting of Michael Brown, an unarmed black 18-year-old, it highlighted a range of abuses committed against African-American residents by police.

But Ferguson is hardly the first place to be scrutinized by the Justice Department. Here are a few others that have been accused of various forms of discrimination:

Cleveland, Ohio
What it found: Federal investigators documented various instances of unnecessary force, including two unarmed civilians shot more than 20 times after a high-speed chase with police. A Justice Department report cited alarming examples in December to show that Cleveland police used unnecessary force and employed "dangerous tactics" that put the community at risk. Officers excessively used guns, Tasers and fists, sometimes against the mentally ill. Accountability, or the lack thereof, was also a theme of the Justice Department report.

What happened next: The federal investigation started in 2013 after a controversial case the previous year. In that incident, more than 100 officers were involved in a high-speed chase that ended with the deaths of two unarmed civilians. Throughout the investigation, the federal investigators provided feedback and observations to city officials, which gave them a jump-start on reform.

Where things stand: A federal court is keeping tabs on Cleveland police as part of a legal agreement. The city and the Justice Department signed an agreement "to develop a court-enforceable consent decree" that mandates independent monitoring of reforms.

East Haven, Connecticut
What it found: Latinos were subjected to more traffic stops, harsher treatment and retaliation over discrimination complaints, a Justice Department report said. Those were just some of the patterns of discrimination and biased policing cited by federal investigators in their 2011 report. "Our investigation found that East Haven has an extensive history of past discrimination that it has failed to meaningfully address or remedy," the federal report said.

What happened next: In 2012, the FBI arrested four police officers for allegedly targeting Latinos in more than 30 incidents among them.

Where things stand: Since then, experts have monitored the police department's compliance and provided reports to the court. The latest report, issued in August, says the department has made "remarkable" changes. "They have not wavered once on their commitments under the settlement agreement," the report said.

Missoula County, Montana
What it found: This case highlighted allegations of gender bias against victims of sexual assault. It started two years ago after the Justice Department threatened a lawsuit against local authorities for not doing enough to seek justice for rape victims. As a result, local police and prosecutors pledged reforms, and the University of Montana launched programs to address sensitivity to sexual assault.

What happened next: The county attorney accused the federal government of bullying and sued it in federal court, saying the Justice Department defamed prosecutors and demanding it provide evidence to support its case.

Where things stand: After a two-year standoff, the Justice Department reached an agreement with county officials last year. It said the county has pledged to implement sexual assault policies, train prosecutors, improve communication between law enforcement officers and victims, and improve data sharing, among other measures. As a result, the county attorney dismissed the suit. The Missoula attorney general was tapped to monitor the implementation of the measures and review sexual assault cases.

New Orleans, Louisiana
What it found: Minorities were subjected to excessive force, illegal stops and pat-down searches, among other things, federal investigators said in a 2011 report. Dogs in the police department's K-9 unit were "uncontrollable" and attacked their handlers, it added. And despite factoring in the city's demographics, more African-American residents were arrested, compared with white residents. It also said police targeted transgender people for arrest on prostitution charges.

What happened next: Hundreds of police officers in the city retired after the investigation. The Justice Department also outlined a series of measures, including the immediate suspension of some dogs. A year after the report, both parties agreed to proposed changes under a consent decree. They included comprehensive policies, application of such policies uniformly and accountability for officers. Other measures include documenting factors such as race, ethnicity and gender of occupants in a car during a traffic stop.

Where things stand: Last year, a report said not all police officers use body and in-car cameras as mandated by federal investigators. Of the 145 incidents where use of force was suspected, only 49 had been recorded as required, according to the report, cited by the Times-Picayune. "Moving forward, we will address issues on a case-by-case basis through additional training and discipline when warranted," Interim Superintendent Michael Harrison told the paper.

Albuquerque, New Mexico
What it found: The Justice Department accused the city's police department of engaging in "a pattern" of using excessive force after a two-year investigation. It said that in some troubling instances, officers failed to turn on their cameras and recorders before such encounters.

What happened next: Federal officials suggested overhaul plans for the city, which they said were well received. They included the reporting of any use of force, including pointing of firearms; new policies on use of force; and more sensitivity toward mentally ill people.

Where things stand: Last year, federal and local officials reached an agreement that calls for changes to be implemented within four years and an independent monitor to be appointed.

Newark, New Jersey
What it found: Four years ago, the Justice Department started investigating the police department after receiving allegations of use of excessive force, unwarranted stops and arrests, and discrimination against African-Americans. Its review found that of all the city's stops, about 75% were not justifiable.

What happened next: During the investigation, both sides admitted that policing the city is a challenge because of its high crime rate and limited budget. They pledged to work together with residents and the city's leadership to implement changes such better police training and improve their response to sexual assault complaints.

Where things stand: In January, the Justice Department posted an application for a federal monitoring team for Newark police.

Maricopa County, Arizona
What it found: A federal investigation of the Sheriff's Office found that it engaged in discriminatory policing and jail practices. The Sheriff's Office was notified of the formal federal investigation in March 2009 and for 18 months "consistently refused to cooperate" with it, the Justice Department said. As a result, in September 2010, the federal government sued Maricopa County under Title VI of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, and the county then "reversed course," allowing federal investigators access.

What happened next: During the investigation, the Justice Department found that deputies "engaged in a widespread pattern or practice of law enforcement and jail activities that discriminated against Latinos," according to a December 2011 letter of finding by the department.

Where things stand: In May of 2013, a federal judge ruled that Maricopa County's handling of people of Latino descent was not thorough enforcement of immigration laws but instead was racial and ethnic profiling. A court has imposed changes, but the federal government says Sheriff Joe Arpaio may be in contempt of the court orders, and a hearing is scheduled for April. The Justice Department says it is working "to reach an agreement to remedy the unconstitutional conduct we found."

CNN's Toby Lyles and Sarah Aarthun contributed to this report.

[baki]

Why don't you just say what you really want to say and get it over with already instead of dancing around it by continually posing this loaded ass question as if you actually want (or would even accept) the answer.

I'm not sure what whacky conspiracy theory you have floating around in your head, but I'm asking a question because I'd like an answer. Why is everyone dodging it? Is it because they don't like the answer?

I'm don't believe that you're actually looking for a serious answer. You seem more like a troll who is just looking to spew your racist bs. But black people aren't any more violent than most other races. If you look at the history of the US it's white people that have been the most violent, sadistic and downright psychotic people. It gets sugar coated, but the history of racism in the US is downright demonic. It's been documented that white people would chop off body parts of black people, burn them alive, rip out their innards etc for no reason at all other than the fact they were black. The word picnic comes from a time when white people would form mobs with their families and look for black people to murder. They'd bring their kids, food and cut off body parts as souvenirs. Could you imagine how messed up you'd be psychologically knowing that you could be murdered just walking down the street for something as arbitrary as lets say your eye color. Men, women and children, none of them were spared. Research the town of Greenwood in Tulsa Oklahoma. And you want to say well that happened a long time times have changed, this was going on just 50 years ago some of these people that committed these atrocities are still alive, a lot of them have still have children that they raised to be racist and these children have grandchildren still living today. So you're kidding yourself if you think that there is a strong undercurrent of racism in America today.

So this brings me to a question, let's say that black people had equal access to education, weren't subject to daily harassment and the threat of violence and weren't the target of discriminatory laws by the US government(it's pathetic that a government targeted its own people), but stayed segregated in their own communities where would be happening now?
a) There would be less violence, poverty and a much smaller gap in income disparity between white and black
b) The black community would be thriving and would be doing better on average than their white counterparts
c) The black community would be worse off

There's a cause and effect to all of this. Black people didn't just suddenly wake up and start killing themselves. There's nothing inherently wrong with black people, otherwise black people across all class lines would be violent. There's a historic, political and systemic reason that there are larger number of black people in poverty which leads to more violence. The answer to solving the problem isn't to pull up their pants or stop listening to rap music (white kids are the largest consumers of rap music, following this logic they would commit violent acts and be self destructive). The answer to solving the problem is multifaceted and involves a paradigm shift on multiple dimensions.

Are you saying that white Americans are more sadistic than black Africans? Do you even know the crime levels in Africa?

[baki]

A bunch of conspiracy theory-like text here....

This is why I didn't respond to your other posts. This is a nonsensical, frankly a bit paranoid and conspiracy theory-like, rant that contains no substance whatsoever.

I completely agree, some people are so deep in their ways that it would take more than just forum lobbying to get them out of it

[wigglestrue]

"I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts about the Ferguson federal report."

Still waiting my ass. As I already told you upthread the last time you requested the same thing: I already posted the excellent Friedersdorf column on the Ferguson report, and I had already noted that there are certain police departments in the country which are infested with racists like the LAPD and certain municipalities stuck in a racist time warp like Ferguson which has a top-to-bottom, aggressive disregard for the rights and lives of its black citizens. What you want to do, Bill, is use those demonstrably racist enclaves to infer that all institutions in the entire ******* country and all white people collectively are just as racist and that every point of difference in the rates of this or that hardship between racial demographics can only be explained by that inference. Nope.

I have zero doubt that this is all "strange" for you, lol, being called out and continually owned by someone who defies the stereotype you have of people who reject your dogma. Frustrating, too, I bet. Why won't I just stay in the place you keep trying to put me, right?

[Pointgod]

I'm not a right winger. Fox News is wretched.

Thank God. At least we agree on one thing.

But that worm has turned. It's twenty-*******-fifteen, lol, not 1935 or 1956 or 1977 or even 1999. American society has dramatically changed, mostly for the better. The left won some great battles, but now doesn't like the fact that the high ground they once owned is getting lower and lower relative to the rest of society having caught up most of the way. The left would prefer to keep thinking of American society as just as diseased with racism as it used to be, so that they can keep their role as diagnosticians of the sick, champions of the oppressed, so that their revolutionary schemes are still urgently and perpetually required. They're so used to race issues being their moral bread-and-butter, I guess, they can hardly even bring themselves to realize when they've won. Still gotta feel like everyone needs their help, even when their remedies wind up making **** worse.

Think about how ridiculous it sounds. Hey black people, be happy that you don't have to get murdered just for the simple reason that you're black or that you were treated like complete **** even though some of you served and died for your country. Just because there's been improvement on the absolutely deplorable conditions that black people were made to suffer doesn't mean that there still isn't progress to be made. The racism was so ridiculous that black people couldn't even take a **** in the same place as whites! Because things are better now compared to 60 years ago doesn't mean that everything is cinnamon and tits.

The left's self-described agenda still does usually sound great, though, at first. Once upon a time, I was a leftist. But the left's agenda goes beyond the platitudes you mentioned and entails a forceful reordering of society, the same defining and sorting and ranking of people into groups based on superficial identity markers like race and sexuality, etc. Same damn basic **** the right wing has always done but with nicer intentions and a more sophisticated complex of theories.

I hate the term "left" it make it sound like some kind of negative connotation. What the "left" is doing is what any decent person would be in favor of. You can't expect women to be happy that they're no longer treated as property, yet they still huge disadvantages when it comes to something like wage. The only reason someone would feel threatened by a so called reordering of society is if they're comfortable with the unequal structure that's in place right now.

Those racist leftists do exist, but it's not just the liberals who secretly resent black people or hipsters who mock black culture to entertain themselves in private. It's also leftists like Neutral and Bill, whose repugnant racist logic is masked by those inarguable platitudes, rooted precisely in their warped idea of seeking racial justice by replacing one old set of stereotypes with a whole new set of stereotypes. Sounds like antiracism, is called antiracism...but the logic is still racist. THAT is what enrages me, their racism, not their leftism.

Guys like Neutral and Bill maybe extreme and patronizing, but all they're doing is pointing out a systemic problem that's aligned with race. To point out white privilege or institutional racism is not an attack on white people and it's not even close to racist. The better question is why so many white fight to defend institutionalized racism, when it's a system that's being criticized not the individual person or even the race. I think where their frustration lies is that people refuse to even acknowledge that the issue and divert and go on other tangents.

[Pointgod]

I'm not sure what whacky conspiracy theory you have floating around in your head, but I'm asking a question because I'd like an answer. Why is everyone dodging it? Is it because they don't like the answer?

I'm don't believe that you're actually looking for a serious answer. You seem more like a troll who is just looking to spew your racist bs. But black people aren't any more violent than most other races. If you look at the history of the US it's white people that have been the most violent, sadistic and downright psychotic people. It gets sugar coated, but the history of racism in the US is downright demonic. It's been documented that white people would chop off body parts of black people, burn them alive, rip out their innards etc for no reason at all other than the fact they were black. The word picnic comes from a time when white people would form mobs with their families and look for black people to murder. They'd bring their kids, food and cut off body parts as souvenirs. Could you imagine how messed up you'd be psychologically knowing that you could be murdered just walking down the street for something as arbitrary as lets say your eye color. Men, women and children, none of them were spared. Research the town of Greenwood in Tulsa Oklahoma. And you want to say well that happened a long time times have changed, this was going on just 50 years ago some of these people that committed these atrocities are still alive, a lot of them have still have children that they raised to be racist and these children have grandchildren still living today. So you're kidding yourself if you think that there is a strong undercurrent of racism in America today.

So this brings me to a question, let's say that black people had equal access to education, weren't subject to daily harassment and the threat of violence and weren't the target of discriminatory laws by the US government(it's pathetic that a government targeted its own people), but stayed segregated in their own communities where would be happening now?
a) There would be less violence, poverty and a much smaller gap in income disparity between white and black
b) The black community would be thriving and would be doing better on average than their white counterparts
c) The black community would be worse off

There's a cause and effect to all of this. Black people didn't just suddenly wake up and start killing themselves. There's nothing inherently wrong with black people, otherwise black people across all class lines would be violent. There's a historic, political and systemic reason that there are larger number of black people in poverty which leads to more violence. The answer to solving the problem isn't to pull up their pants or stop listening to rap music (white kids are the largest consumers of rap music, following this logic they would commit violent acts and be self destructive). The answer to solving the problem is multifaceted and involves a paradigm shift on multiple dimensions.

Are you saying that white Americans are more sadistic than black Africans? Do you even know the crime levels in Africa?

If that's all you got from my post then you have poor comprehension skills.

[wigglestrue]

A bunch of conspiracy theory-like text here....

This is why I didn't respond to your other posts. This is a nonsensical, frankly a bit paranoid and conspiracy theory-like, rant that contains no substance whatsoever.

I completely agree, some people are so deep in their ways that it would take more than just forum lobbying to get them out of it

No substance my ass, as well. No substance that you can refute, is more like it. I mean, completely agree with WHAT? DESCRIBE something, at least, if you are too cowardly to engage substantively. Neither of you could find something from my posts to go to town on? Just empty, self-congratulatory snark? As if it's so self-evident how I'm wrong and how you're right that you don't owe an explanation, not to me as much as to the other people participating here and the many others lurking? Guess what: It's not self-evident. That's just your excuse for shrinking from testing your worldview. Hell, I am entirely open to the idea that I could be wrong about any single thing or even wrong about a whole constellation of ideas. As I said, I am an apostate of the left. I have experienced the sensation of realizing I'm wrong about things I thought were gospel. Do you know that feeling, dude, in general? Is your ability to conceive the possibility of being the one who's wrong a proven thing, or do you just fancy yourself in the abstract as openminded because it's a flattering adjective?

Good to know you fellas were only here to lobby, though -- as opposed to having an actual debate, discussion, etc.

[83SixersRocked]

The Sixers really suck don't they?

[wigglestrue]

Think about how ridiculous it sounds. Hey black people, be happy that you don't have to get murdered just for the simple reason that you're black or that you were treated like complete **** even though some of you served and died for your country. Just because there's been improvement on the absolutely deplorable conditions that black people were made to suffer doesn't mean that there still isn't progress to be made. The racism was so ridiculous that black people couldn't even take a **** in the same place as whites! Because things are better now compared to 60 years ago doesn't mean that everything is cinnamon and tits.

Think about how ridiculous it is to talk about "systemic" racism as if the entire goddamned system of American schools, government, courts, culture, business is still plagued by a racism about as potent as it demonstrably was 50+ years ago. Demonstrability is important, because otherwise it's just an article of faith, a new conventional wisdom divorced from the need to prove itself. So, today, systemic racism is demonstrable how? In selectively interpreted statistical patterns. Which we as NBA fans ought to know can be meaningless without context, disasterously misunderstood unless tested against other statistics, other explanations, an eye test, basic logic, etc. But god help the person who questions the propriety of attributing a racial cause to every rate discrepancy that still exists. Antiracists would rather not permit those questions, but at the very least they'll ignore them. (See this thread.) Another way that systemic racism is supposedly demonstrated today is in small samples of indisputably or plausibly racist phenomena. Another thing smart NBA fans should already be leery of, small samples. And yet Bill felt like he was dropping his mic by posting a handful of problematic situations out of thousands and thousands and thousands of situations. Yet another way is social science experiments...ask most real scientists what they think of most social science. Conclusions in search of a hypothesis.

Cinnamon and tits...if we ever got there, would it be acknowledged? If we got close, would we know it? What is it that we're looking for, ultimately? Total parity in outcomes? Impossible. At least according to averages on an Excel spreadsheet, where there will always be some variation one way or the other between arbitrarily defined racial groupings. Furthermore, parity could be reached by distressing and depressing the other side of the equation, too, a heinous prospect. Imagine, say, parity in incarceration rates reached through pressure to charge and convict slightly more poor white people whatever the justification. That'd be one way, theoretically. Parity cannot be the ultimate goal.

No more Fergusons or LAPDs anywhere, ever? That ought to be manageable, it's disgusting that any such enclave exists, and there are certainly ways to detect and scrub the rank racism from such environments. There is definitely still progress to be made. In specific places, about specific things. But that's not an ultimate goal, either.

How about the ultimate goal being a society where no one remembers or cares what our idea of "race" is? The concept has not always been around. In fact, it was racists who invented it. A society where "racial justice", as opposed to just plain justice, is what sounds ridiculous...how do we get there? Not by pretending racism doesn't exist. Not by obsessing over a diminishing amount of racism as if nothing ever changes, either. Not by not letting the past die at some point. Someone mentioned above how 500 years of horrific racist oppression can't be overturned and overcome in 50 years. Uh, why not?

[ALL HAIL]

The Sixers really suck don't they?

Institutionalized sucking, huh?

[ALL HAIL]

Think about how ridiculous it sounds. Hey black people, be happy that you don't have to get murdered just for the simple reason that you're black or that you were treated like complete **** even though some of you served and died for your country. Just because there's been improvement on the absolutely deplorable conditions that black people were made to suffer doesn't mean that there still isn't progress to be made. The racism was so ridiculous that black people couldn't even take a **** in the same place as whites! Because things are better now compared to 60 years ago doesn't mean that everything is cinnamon and tits.

Think about how ridiculous it is to talk about "systemic" racism as if the entire goddamned system of American schools, government, courts, culture, business is still plagued by a racism about as potent as it demonstrably was 50+ years ago. Demonstrability is important, because otherwise it's just an article of faith, a new conventional wisdom divorced from the need to prove itself. So, today, systemic racism is demonstrable how? In selectively interpreted statistical patterns. Which we as NBA fans ought to know can be meaningless without context, disasterously misunderstood unless tested against other statistics, other explanations, an eye test, basic logic, etc. But god help the person who questions the propriety of attributing a racial cause to every rate discrepancy that still exists. Antiracists would rather not permit those questions, but at the very least they'll ignore them. (See this thread.) Another way that systemic racism is supposedly demonstrated today is in small samples of indisputably or plausibly racist phenomena. Another thing smart NBA fans should already be leery of, small samples. And yet Bill felt like he was dropping his mic by posting a handful of problematic situations out of thousands and thousands and thousands of situations. Yet another way is social science experiments...ask most real scientists what they think of most social science. Conclusions in search of a hypothesis.

Cinnamon and tits...if we ever got there, would it be acknowledged? If we got close, would we know it? What is it that we're looking for, ultimately? Total parity in outcomes? Impossible. At least according to averages on an Excel spreadsheet, where there will always be some variation one way or the other between arbitrarily defined racial groupings. Furthermore, parity could be reached by distressing and depressing the other side of the equation, too, a heinous prospect. Imagine, say, parity in incarceration rates reached through pressure to charge and convict slightly more poor white people whatever the justification. That'd be one way, theoretically. Parity cannot be the ultimate goal.

No more Fergusons or LAPDs anywhere, ever? That ought to be manageable, it's disgusting that any such enclave exists, and there are certainly ways to detect and scrub the rank racism from such environments. There is definitely still progress to be made. In specific places, about specific things. But that's not an ultimate goal, either.

How about the ultimate goal being a society where no one remembers or cares what our idea of "race" is? The concept has not always been around. In fact, it was racists who invented it. A society where "racial justice", as opposed to just plain justice, is what sounds ridiculous...how do we get there? Not by pretending racism doesn't exist. Not by obsessing over a diminishing amount of racism as if nothing ever changes, either. Not by not letting the past die at some point. Someone mentioned above how 500 years of horrific racist oppression can't be overturned and overcome in 50 years. Uh, why not?

It sounds like you're caught up in two things:

The manner in which Bill and Neutral have framed their arguments and the word "systemic".

To speak for them for a second, I don't think they would say that discrimination is "everywhere". They wouldn't say it's evident in "every" school system, "every" business, and "every" courthouse.

What they would say is that it's evident a whole lot and frankly way too often--enough for them to label it "systemic".

Can you really blame people for using the word "systemic"? It clearly was that way. It oftentimes, at the very least, appears and "feels" that way, and there is often evidence of widespread unfairness within "various" aspects of a particular system, rarely if never an ENTIRE system (100%), but a significant amount, nonetheless, to cause people to feel like these negative practices are swirling around almost "everywhere". I've felt that way a lot and I generally don't keep up with current events, so I'm not influenced by media coverage.

Also, to answer that last question, I think it's ambitious to suggest that Black people should be cured after fifty years, especially when you consider the psychological damage that was done to the entire race.

To enslave and terrorize a people for 500 years, think about that for a minute, 500 years, eight generations, then expect those people get their acts together in less than one generation is unrealistic. If you disagree, then I can't help but think you don't understand the atrocities of slavery and their still lingering effects.

As King Ken pointed out through his MLK video, reparations were never given, nothing was ever given, not even a damn apology, after being enslaved for eight goddamn generations.

Even after being cast aside, Black people were still able to conquer the demons of the past by learning to work together for the betterment of the whole. We established Black Wall Street, we created powerful organizations that created systems to sustain ourselves. Unfortunately, after every dramatic uptick on the part of Black people, our efforts were thwarted by white oppressors.

They literally dropped bombs on Black Wall Street. They infiltrated and caused the destruction of the Black Panthers. The American government murdered Martin Luther King when he began to speak out and do too much. The depressing and debilitating list goes on and on and on and on.

Black people MUST learn how to rely on ourselves, but seemingly every time we begin to learn this principle, a literal and/or metaphorical bomb is dropped.

Can you imagine that extreme level of psycological terror? Can you really? Seemingly every time we attempt to heal, bad things happen.

You know how I feel. I wish ALL of my people understood what I understand, that we must heal and learn to truly value one another.

Unfortunately, today, I'm the exception, I've done the psychoanalysis on me, the people closest to me, and the entire race of Black folks. Many are incapable of this without deep psychological assistance. Has America even offered that? Can we get some free counseling at least? We damn sure need it.

Our mangled minds and spirits will not heal themselves without deep, concentrated psychological work and assistance.

It's so much easier for white people to change after 550 years than it is for Black people.

Black people need real help--post-traumatic psychological help, spiritual help (you know y'all took our God too), financial help, educational help, family help, help with trust, and general help with image and self-love.

White people just need to be nicer.

You can't gloss over this. If you do then you're doing exactly what Bill Bradley spoke of when he said that white people's responses here are standard and ignorant.

Don't be that. Don't be typical. Think about the other side. Listen and imagine the world through a Black lense.

[baki]

I'm don't believe that you're actually looking for a serious answer. You seem more like a troll who is just looking to spew your racist bs. But black people aren't any more violent than most other races. If you look at the history of the US it's white people that have been the most violent, sadistic and downright psychotic people. It gets sugar coated, but the history of racism in the US is downright demonic. It's been documented that white people would chop off body parts of black people, burn them alive, rip out their innards etc for no reason at all other than the fact they were black. The word picnic comes from a time when white people would form mobs with their families and look for black people to murder. They'd bring their kids, food and cut off body parts as souvenirs. Could you imagine how messed up you'd be psychologically knowing that you could be murdered just walking down the street for something as arbitrary as lets say your eye color. Men, women and children, none of them were spared. Research the town of Greenwood in Tulsa Oklahoma. And you want to say well that happened a long time times have changed, this was going on just 50 years ago some of these people that committed these atrocities are still alive, a lot of them have still have children that they raised to be racist and these children have grandchildren still living today. So you're kidding yourself if you think that there is a strong undercurrent of racism in America today.

Are you saying that white Americans are more sadistic than black Africans? Do you even know the crime levels in Africa?

If that's all you got from my post then you have poor comprehension skills.

No because this is what I want to address, you either have an answer to my question or you don't.

I don't even know why you have to bring this up as it has no relevance to anyone today. People who has suffered from the horrors of wars 50-100 years ago have moved on, the Polish people have moved on, the Cambodians and Vietnamese people have moved on, the Chinese people have moved on. Nobody else is trying to make a point of being a victim here.

[Shot Clock]

Think about the other side. Listen and imagine the world through a Black lense.

I don't think anyone suggests racism doesn't exist. My issue is that 'lense' gets applied first, before anything else is taken into consideration. Age limit must equal racism. No it doesn't have to. Consider the other possibilities before jumping to that.

I read the following article recently

As a newly-minted resident physician, I arrived at a tertiary hospital in Vancouver just before midnight for one of my first shifts in the emergency room in casual street clothes -- jeans, a T-shirt, and a windbreaker. I began to pack a set of hospital scrubs into my backpack to change into before starting my overnight shift in the emergency room.

I was interrupted by a middle-aged woman who briskly approached me and asked in an a demanding manner: "Do you work here?" I was stunned by the accusatory tone of this hospital clerk.

In my head transpired a mental calculus normally reserved for delineating molecular pathways in the etiology of different diseases. It would dawn on me that as a young black male in casual street clothes at midnight in the act of placing hospital property into my personal bag, there was a likelihood that she thought I was stealing.

After what surely was inordinate period of time, I confirmed that I was, indeed gainfully employed by the hospital while I simultaneously frantically unzipped my jacket to make my photo identification card visible.

Of course, the only way that I could definitively establish that the reason I was accused of attempted theft was being a young black male would be if I would rewind time and enter the same door of the hospital at the same time as a young man of another ethnic background or a woman. This is just as unnecessary as it is impossible.

The hospital clerk thought that the probability that a young black man was stealing from her place of work was sufficiently high that she would audaciously accuse me of this act.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/boluwaji-o ... 01140.html

He applies the Black lense and discards the possibility it could be anything else.

I'm a white male that has experienced tons of situations exactly like this. I didn't have the same 'lense' to apply so I had to look for other answers. I've been asked if I worked in a building that in fact I did. I accepted the fact that my ID badge was in my pocket instead of visible. I accepted that I was in a new building and the people there didn't know me.. I wasn't even putting company items into my bag like he was, nor was I dressed in street clothes.. My company has a strict policy around visible ID's due to things like theft. I would expect Hospitals do too.

I've experienced a lot of events during my life that if I had a race lense to apply I would have never got past that and accepted my own responsibility for the situation. I looked really young for my age. At a car dealership I told the sales person the car I was interested in and he told me 'lots of people would like that car, not everyone can afford it, come look at this cheaper model' He had no idea what I could afford, he had no idea the car was being paid for through a generous corporate car allowance. If I was black my lense would scream racism but I was a young looking guy in street clothes because I couldn't wait to get some comfortable clothes on after work. But if looked in a mirror I'd have to accept that I wasn't exactly looking like their target demographic when I walked in. Such is life. At some point I knew I could either continue that way through life or conform when conformity was needed and dress appropriately. There was a huge difference in my experiences.

If I had that lense I'd still be dressing the way I was and expecting that the reaction was totally due to my skin color. I had tons of things happen like getting pulled over randomly on the highway even though I was in a stream of traffic. Stopped by cops that were looking for another guy that supposedly looked like me. Got smacked in the nuts when he frisked me, likely because I was running my mouth about him having the wrong guy.. I can't write any of that off to race although that would certainly make things easier.

[ALL HAIL]

Think about the other side. Listen and imagine the world through a Black lense.

I don't think anyone suggests racism doesn't exist. My issue is that 'lense' gets applied first, before anything else is taken into consideration. Age limit must equal racism. No it doesn't have to. Consider the other possibilities before jumping to that.

I read the following article recently

As a newly-minted resident physician, I arrived at a tertiary hospital in Vancouver just before midnight for one of my first shifts in the emergency room in casual street clothes -- jeans, a T-shirt, and a windbreaker. I began to pack a set of hospital scrubs into my backpack to change into before starting my overnight shift in the emergency room.

I was interrupted by a middle-aged woman who briskly approached me and asked in an a demanding manner: "Do you work here?" I was stunned by the accusatory tone of this hospital clerk.

In my head transpired a mental calculus normally reserved for delineating molecular pathways in the etiology of different diseases. It would dawn on me that as a young black male in casual street clothes at midnight in the act of placing hospital property into my personal bag, there was a likelihood that she thought I was stealing.

After what surely was inordinate period of time, I confirmed that I was, indeed gainfully employed by the hospital while I simultaneously frantically unzipped my jacket to make my photo identification card visible.

Of course, the only way that I could definitively establish that the reason I was accused of attempted theft was being a young black male would be if I would rewind time and enter the same door of the hospital at the same time as a young man of another ethnic background or a woman. This is just as unnecessary as it is impossible.

The hospital clerk thought that the probability that a young black man was stealing from her place of work was sufficiently high that she would audaciously accuse me of this act.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/boluwaji-o ... 01140.html

He applies the Black lense and discards the possibility it could be anything else.

I'm a white male that has experienced tons of situations exactly like this. I didn't have the same 'lense' to apply so I had to look for other answers. I've been asked if I worked in a building that in fact I did. I accepted the fact that my ID badge was in my pocket instead of visible. I accepted that I was in a new building and the people there didn't know me.. I wasn't even putting company items into my bag like he was, nor was I dressed in street clothes.. My company has a strict policy around visible ID's due to things like theft. I would expect Hospitals do too.

I've experienced a lot of events during my life that if I had a race lense to apply I would have never got past that and accepted my own responsibility for the situation. I looked really young for my age. At a car dealership I told the sales person the car I was interested in and he told me 'lots of people would like that car, not everyone can afford it, come look at this cheaper model' He had no idea what I could afford, he had no idea the car was being paid for through a generous corporate car allowance. If I was black my lense would scream racism but I was a young looking guy in street clothes because I couldn't wait to get some comfortable clothes on after work. But if looked in a mirror I'd have to accept that I wasn't exactly looking like their target demographic when I walked in. Such is life. At some point I knew I could either continue that way through life or conform when conformity was needed and dress appropriately. There was a huge difference in my experiences.

If I had that lense I'd still be dressing the way I was and expecting that the reaction was totally due to my skin color. I had tons of things happen like getting pulled over randomly on the highway even though I was in a stream of traffic. Stopped by cops that were looking for another guy that supposedly looked like me. Got smacked in the nuts when he frisked me, likely because I was running my mouth about him having the wrong guy.. I can't write any of that off to race although that would certainly make things easier.

I agree with everything you said my man.

When I asked the guy to look at life through a Black lense I was essentially asking him to reexamine his idea that fifty years is enough time to move past 500 years of terrorism and in humane psychological treatment.

He lightly suggested or asked why fifty years want an adequate amount of time to move past the horrors of slaveryi, to which I responded it's not that easy. Black people have been deeply bruised psychologically, the type of trauma that leaves a long lasting generational imprint.

When I asked him to consider the Black lense, I was asking him to consider this generational imprint and trauma before asking why can't we move on.

You have a very valid point, but the specific Black lense in which I speak of is the lense of understanding how yesteryear"s pain still resonates today.

It's really quite real.

Can you understand? Can you comprehend the connection between eight generations of terrorism to the mindstate of today's generation of Black people?

Most white people have a difficult time doing this, which is why I outlined how it's so much easier for whites to change than Blacks.

We need help, y'all just need to act nicer.

So even in the examples you provide you've really go to be sensitive.

In that MLK clip, he alluded to the idea that in order to give Black people a fighting chance at truly healing and establishing ourselves, we deserve reparations to aide in repairing this deep psychological bruising.

It's really not as simple as flipping a light switch on and off. I'm not trying to make excuses, but many, many Black people could benefit from counseling. We've never healed from the terror folks. Never been through the constructive process of hearing our government acknowledge and apologize for the atrocities of the past, never heard them apologize and acknowledge killing MLK, never received the promised 40 acres and a mule, so yes, we are paranoid, but isn't it understandable.

WAs the America paranoid over every person wearing a turban after 9/11? Wasn't that understandable? And that was one set of isolated incidents. White terrorism toward Black people has gone on for eight generations.

The past, especially one that lasted sooooooo long, is not so easily disposable.

It's in our DNA to not trust white people, but looking at it through our lense, can you really blame us?

Acknowledging the difficulty is the first step in the process of seeing things through our experience/lense, but overly simplifying this process is truly a crime.

[Shot Clock]

I guess I don't dwell that much on what happened to my ancestors or my ancestor's ancestors. I live in the here and now. Easy to say I guess when I don't have a history of repression in my gene pool. We can't forget it but we can't let it continue to shape our outlook or we never will get past it.

[ALL HAIL]

I guess I don't dwell that much on what happened to my ancestors or my ancestor's ancestors. I live in the here and now. Easy to say I guess when I don't have a history of repression in my gene pool. We can't forget it but we can't let it continue to shape our outlook or we never will get past it.

Agreed.

One thing you must understand is that the plight of Black people in America is truly, truly unique.

There is no real precendence.

After slavery, we never left this place; perhaps we should have.