NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 4: MVP Thread's Revenge)

[Jaqua92]

And also Denver right before the allstar break where Giannis was the best player on the floor. Giannis was guarding jokic pretty good jokic can not guard Giannis at all he blows by him like he’s standing in quicksand. The difference for me is the defense that Giannis is capable of but I know jokic fans ain’t trading him for Giannis either lol
Giannis can still get better which is a scary thing I just wish the bucks would never have hired griffin!

And jokic was the better player in the first game they played on both ends.

I am talking right now and going forward since we have a coach again. That was the first game Doc had to coach I think the bucks are the only team that can beat the nuggets in a 7 game series especially with a healthy Middleton. Giannis right now is on another level and if his shooting continues into the playoffs he is the best player in the nba and will win a chip. But I want to just watch and see if he can keep it up he is capable of it but it is a new thing we shall see.

Because of 6 games?

The Bucks can't beat Boston. Nvm Denver lol

[AleksandarN]

How does SGA have better footwork and body control than Jokic?? Jokic’s BBIQ is greater. Also controlling the game is definitely advantage to Jokic as he control literally the whole offense of the Nuggets.

So for body control it is a significant gap. SGA is enormously more dexterous and agile, and his movement patterns are gliding, slithering and sharp and he has a better ability to contort his body and pivot to new movements. Jokic's lack of speed and flexibility punish him here. His movements are still fairly smooth, but once he makes a movement he has to commit to it far more.

With footwork, this is closer. Jokic is able to dazzle with challenging spin moves, beautiful pirouettes and moves his feet with excellent anticipation. SGA also has excellent anticipation with his footwork, but is better able to shift his feet side to side. His footwork also allows for absolutely devastating deceleration and vicious turn arounds. SGA can also make the same spin moves as Jokic while moving at a higher speed, but he doesn't do the pirouettes. Both are excellent using their pivot foot, Jokic with the pirouettes to flummox opposing centers, while SGA does a lot of fake spins to offset defenders.

BBIQ I didn't really address because it is so esoteric, and when both players have elite BBIQ people tend to gravitate to what is plainly obvious. But BBIQ is more like an iceberg, where the obvious is only a tiny fraction of it. For example Jokic's excellent passing vision (which I reference in his advantage of making passes the defense can't anticipate more often) is a clear example of excellent BBIQ. On the other hand SGA plays an extremely clean game which involves making less mistakes. For example the ratio of assists to bad pass turnovers is 5.37 for Jokic and 6.96 for SGA. I think what this shows is SGA is more restrained in his playmaking, while Jokic's playmaking is at such a savant level that he takes riskier opportunities. Jokic has also shown a propensity to get baited in to fouling out of frustration, while SGA can occasionally foul out of greed for steals. Gun to my head I'd say Jokic has better BBIQ, but as I said, I think this is something that you can't really derive from just watching games. We aren't comparing Chris Paul to Jordan Poole here.

Controlling the game ties in to BBIQ in some respects. However controlling a teams offense more often does not mean a player is better at controlling a game. That is something that is more tied to coaching, teammates and skillsets as opposed to dictating the game. I am speaking of knowing when to take over and then making it happen, executing down the stretch, manipulating the defense with creation for others and also creation for yourself, resisting the temptations of hero ball, understanding your limitations and cold blooded in game decision making. When you take in all the broader factors of controlling a game I think these two guys are very even. I also think that consistency in this area is the big thing that has so far held Tatum back from the next level.

When I mention Jokic’s body control just look at all of the times he finishes through contact. A lot of times he is fouled he is able to contort his body off balance and make a shot. Look at all those circus shots he makes. To able to turn around square up and take a shot takes a lot of body control given the limited time he has to put up a shot because it is not like he has any hang time or verticality. Now when it comes to controlling the game and how he orchestrates the offense that is far superior to SGA. Which leads to his IQ and situational awareness of not only his main defender but all of the players on the court. It is why he can “see plays before it happens “. How he manipulates the defense through no look passes and misdirections. Look at this example from this game against the nuggets.

Read on Twitter

[DrModesty]

How does SGA have better footwork and body control than Jokic?? Jokic’s BBIQ is greater. Also controlling the game is definitely advantage to Jokic as he control literally the whole offense of the Nuggets.

So for body control it is a significant gap. SGA is enormously more dexterous and agile, and his movement patterns are gliding, slithering and sharp and he has a better ability to contort his body and pivot to new movements. Jokic's lack of speed and flexibility punish him here. His movements are still fairly smooth, but once he makes a movement he has to commit to it far more.

With footwork, this is closer. Jokic is able to dazzle with challenging spin moves, beautiful pirouettes and moves his feet with excellent anticipation. SGA also has excellent anticipation with his footwork, but is better able to shift his feet side to side. His footwork also allows for absolutely devastating deceleration and vicious turn arounds. SGA can also make the same spin moves as Jokic while moving at a higher speed, but he doesn't do the pirouettes. Both are excellent using their pivot foot, Jokic with the pirouettes to flummox opposing centers, while SGA does a lot of fake spins to offset defenders.

BBIQ I didn't really address because it is so esoteric, and when both players have elite BBIQ people tend to gravitate to what is plainly obvious. But BBIQ is more like an iceberg, where the obvious is only a tiny fraction of it. For example Jokic's excellent passing vision (which I reference in his advantage of making passes the defense can't anticipate more often) is a clear example of excellent BBIQ. On the other hand SGA plays an extremely clean game which involves making less mistakes. For example the ratio of assists to bad pass turnovers is 5.37 for Jokic and 6.96 for SGA. I think what this shows is SGA is more restrained in his playmaking, while Jokic's playmaking is at such a savant level that he takes riskier opportunities. Jokic has also shown a propensity to get baited in to fouling out of frustration, while SGA can occasionally foul out of greed for steals. Gun to my head I'd say Jokic has better BBIQ, but as I said, I think this is something that you can't really derive from just watching games. We aren't comparing Chris Paul to Jordan Poole here.

Controlling the game ties in to BBIQ in some respects. However controlling a teams offense more often does not mean a player is better at controlling a game. That is something that is more tied to coaching, teammates and skillsets as opposed to dictating the game. I am speaking of knowing when to take over and then making it happen, executing down the stretch, manipulating the defense with creation for others and also creation for yourself, resisting the temptations of hero ball, understanding your limitations and cold blooded in game decision making. When you take in all the broader factors of controlling a game I think these two guys are very even. I also think that consistency in this area is the big thing that has so far held Tatum back from the next level.

When I mention Jokic’s body control just look at all of the times he finishes through contact. A lot of times he is fouled he is able to contort his body off balance and make a shot. Look at all those circus shots he makes. To able to turn around square up and take a shot takes a lot of body control given the limited time he has to put up a shot because it is not like he has any hang time or verticality. Now when it comes to controlling the game and how he orchestrates the offense that is far superior to SGA. Which leads to his IQ and situational awareness of not only his main defender but all of the players on the court. It is why he can “see plays before it happens “. How he manipulates the defense through no look passes and misdirections. Look at this example from this game against the nuggets.

Read on Twitter

I would say SGA with a weaker frame has been even more accomplished at finishing through contact, and I spoke before of the broader aspects of dictating a game beyond orchestrating the offense. But its fine for us to disagree on this because it is as much a philosophy on basketball thing as anything else when there are so many factors involved.

[QPR]

One underrated part of Jokic's skillet is the way he can shoot and finish off either foot. That is extremely hard to do.

SGA's ability find a gap to finish at the rim is maybe the best I've ever seen. His use of angles is unbelievable and so many times it looks like the defense has him covered, only for his long arm to find the smallest of gaps.

[CobraCommander]

Best players still Giannis aar 2 and jokic at one

Sga may be having a better year so far - but no one thinks SGA is as good as Giannis yet right ?

Giannis and Tatum (can’t believe I’m saying this) are being underrated-

All Tatum does is lead the best team in the league year over year and plays hard at both ends -

Idk how Giannis is underrated. He’s a consensus top 2 player. He’s top 3 in mvp.

Under rated in the mvp
Conversation- not in hooping

[The Lazy Potato]

Giannis efficiency is not talked about enough
The last time he shot under 50% from the fg was Jan 22nd.
He only shot under 50% from the fg 8 times this season with 59 games played
He shot over 60%, 34 times and he average more than 30 points per game this season !!
What else does he have to do for MVP recognition?

[Exp0sed]

Giannis efficiency is not talked about enough
The last time he shot under 50% from the fg was Jan 22nd.
He only shot under 50% from the fg 8 times this season with 59 games played
He shot over 60%, 34 times and he average more than 30 points per game this season !!
What else does he have to do for MVP recognition?

and yet Giannis have had 8 games of shooting under 50% this season while Jokic had 7
yes, Jokic is still carrying his anomalous cold start from the field and Giannis has been more efficient overall (EFG% 63 vs. 60) but pretty comparable all in all i'd say

on a different note, with Jokic on the court (before the Lakers game) Nuggets have an ORTG of 132 and a DRTG of 109.
Giannis is at 127 ORTG and 112 DRTG.

obviously context is needed but just a general reference point, you can zoom out and see the reason Giannis isn't getting more MVP consideration - Jokic has simply been a bit better.

"What else does he have to do..." is literally the whine and battle cry that the fake MVPiid used last season, lol the irony
the answer was the same last season as well - be better and more valuable than all the other players in the league. not just 99.5% of the players but over all of them

Embiid has failed to do so last season (even tho he was shamefully rewarded for an award he did not deserve) and Giannis has failed to do so thus far this season, but there's still plenty left to play and he can def still get there, he's def not far off

[Johnny Firpo]

What else does he have to do for MVP recognition?

He is great, but Jokic is just a little bit better. Even if Bucks fans don't feel it that way (and I think you guys are certain in the minority with that opinion), at the very least you should agree that even if you see them as 1a/1b, the Bucks should have a better record in the easier conference, but they don't. They are 2 games behind the Nuggets, who play in the obviously stronger conference (the West is once again killing the East this year).

[QPR]

Giannis efficiency is not talked about enough
The last time he shot under 50% from the fg was Jan 22nd.
He only shot under 50% from the fg 8 times this season with 59 games played
He shot over 60%, 34 times and he average more than 30 points per game this season !!
What else does he have to do for MVP recognition?

Be as good as Jokic, which he isn't.

Right now Jokic ranks above him in VORP, PER, win shares (offensive, defensive and total) and BPM (offensive, defensive and total), quite comfortably in most of them. Jokic is a better rebounder, a far better playmaker and for all the talk of Giannis and his 30ppg on 60% shooting, they're almost identical in terms of TS%, despite Giannis shooting more than double the amount of free throws.

Denver is also two games better than Milwaukee in the standings. It really isn't that close, as great as Giannis is.

[Lakers In 5]

That's a big statement game by Jokic.

I do not think this was a statement game of his, I think it was *just* a game. Which is a testament as to how he is clearly the MVP and why he is far and away the best player in the game today. There is no race, Jokic can only lose to himself.

[tsamo]

Giannis efficiency is not talked about enough
The last time he shot under 50% from the fg was Jan 22nd.
He only shot under 50% from the fg 8 times this season with 59 games played
He shot over 60%, 34 times and he average more than 30 points per game this season !!
What else does he have to do for MVP recognition?

Be as good as Jokic, which he isn't.

Right now Jokic ranks above him in VORP, PER, win shares (offensive, defensive and total) and BPM (offensive, defensive and total), quite comfortably in most of them. Jokic is a better rebounder, a far better playmaker and for all the talk of Giannis and his 30ppg on 60% shooting, they're almost identical in terms of TS%, despite Giannis shooting more than double the amount of free throws.

Denver is also two games better than Milwaukee in the standings. It really isn't that close, as great as Giannis is.

Giannis leads Jokic quite a lot in EPM and on EW added. Does that mean that Giannis is better than Jokic? Also in some of the advanced stats, SGA leads Jokic, so maybe he is the better player, especially as they also lead Denver in the standings?

Jokic a better rebounder? Maybe in the same way Westbrook was a good rebounder. Whereas in the Bucks' scheme they have Giannis give up a lot of easy rebounds to his teammates, which I guess could fill the stat sheets as is the case for Jokic a lot of the time.

Jokic is obviously the better playmaker of the two, but even then, teammates matter. Ask any Bucks' fan and they'll tell you about how many wide open shots Giannis generates for the team, that just go to the trash because of subpar shooting.

As for scoring, as you said Giannis is the far better scorer, with slightly better efficiency, even with the subpar free throw shooting.

And I don't see you mentioning defense anywhere, I wonder why. Or I guess, we all know why. Jokic, while improved, is still a net negative on defense. While Giannis and SGA have been way better defenders than him this year.

And standings change fast, but right now Jokic is 3rd in the west and Giannis is 3rd in the east.

While I'd argue that SGA should get the nod, with Jokic right behind him, with Giannis and Doncic following them, with the way things are right now, it infuriates me when people act like Jokic is untouchable or something like that.
He's right in the fray but he's arguably worse than last year(when he should have won) and even in his forte, the advanced stats that love him and his playing style, he's 1st, 2nd and even 4th in some of them, a far cry from when he was dominating.

[Sgt Major]

Jokic a better rebounder? Maybe in the same way Westbrook was a good rebounder.

Can't believe you wrote this. While Westbrook was stat-padding his rebounds, with his teammates letting him grab the ball all the time, Jokic is a center whose job is to rebound, he's the tallest guy on the team and he's incredibly talented when it comes to positioning around the basket.

[Exp0sed]

Giannis efficiency is not talked about enough
The last time he shot under 50% from the fg was Jan 22nd.
He only shot under 50% from the fg 8 times this season with 59 games played
He shot over 60%, 34 times and he average more than 30 points per game this season !!
What else does he have to do for MVP recognition?

Be as good as Jokic, which he isn't.


And I don't see you mentioning defense anywhere, I wonder why. Or I guess, we all know why. Jokic, while improved, is still a net negative on defense. While Giannis and SGA have been way better defenders than him this year.

"net negative on defense", are we still in 2020?
I thought those narratives were all laid to rest..

Giannis is a better defender than Jokic but Jokic is an impactful defender in his own right.

tell me something, if Giannis is so much better on D and Jokic is a "net negative" - how come the Bucks only have like the 16th best defense and the Nuggets are in the top 10? how come the Nuggets allow less points per poss. than the Bucks?

must be that DPOY old man Lopez stinking it up, huh?

Nuggets have had consisntely great clutch defense (and they showed it was no fluke in a dominating championship run), they can turn it up a notch when it counts. moreover, for years now Nuggets have plummeted defensively when Jokic is on the bench, if he's such a huge net negative wouldn't you expect them to do better with say..DAJ at Center?

I really thought no1 thought that anymore but I guess I was wrong

so what ur saying is that Giannis should be MVP because of his defense despite the Bucks being below average on D, sound logic for sure. fwiw, SGA has been signficanly better than Giannis on D this season imo and has been better offensively too and his team has more wins and a better seed on a much weaker conference. again, perfect logic

I agree that Giannis has that "the most with the least" argument as SGA had far better help this season but as we know, it's not the "most with the least" award. Middelton has mostly been out or ineffective, Dame has been subpar (tho still quite effective offensively and still garners plenty of defensive attention) and all the turmoil around the coaching change etc.

fair enough..but atm he's 3rd behind Jokic and SGA. season's not over tho...

[QPR]

Giannis leads Jokic quite a lot in EPM and on EW added. Does that mean that Giannis is better than Jokic? Also in some of the advanced stats, SGA leads Jokic, so maybe he is the better player, especially as they also lead Denver in the standings?

As a total package, Jokic is significantly better in advanced metrics than Giannis is. They are not the be all and end all, but it's difficult to see the argument for Giannis, which is relevant given the question was what he needed to do to get MVP recognition.

Jokic a better rebounder? Maybe in the same way Westbrook was a good rebounder. Whereas in the Bucks' scheme they have Giannis give up a lot of easy rebounds to his teammates, which I guess could fill the stat sheets as is the case for Jokic a lot of the time.

I don't know what this means? Jokic grabs more rebounds in less minutes and has a higher TRB% at both ends. A counter argument of "well Giannis could get more rebounds if he wanted to" isn't really quantifiable.

Jokic is obviously the better playmaker of the two, but even then, teammates matter. Ask any Bucks' fan and they'll tell you about how many wide open shots Giannis generates for the team, that just go to the trash because of subpar shooting.

A lot of the Giannis arguments seem to be "it's his team mates that are the problem"

As for scoring, as you said Giannis is the far better scorer, with slightly better efficiency, even with the subpar free throw shooting.

I don't think Giannis is the better scorer at all. He's an incredible athlete and an amazing/fearless finisher, but I don't think he has close to the overall bag or touch Jokic has, especially when you take into account perimeter shooting. Jokic would comfortably score 30+ per game if he really wanted to and can pretty much score efficiently in every way possible.

And I don't see you mentioning defense anywhere, I wonder why. Or I guess, we all know why. Jokic, while improved, is still a net negative on defense. While Giannis and SGA have been way better defenders than him this year.

Jokic is definitely a different type of defender and not the prototypical defensive big, but most metrics suggest he is a positive defender, not a negative one.

And standings change fast, but right now Jokic is 3rd in the west and Giannis is 3rd in the east.

Denver is right in the mix to win the West, which is an objectively better division than the East. Granted Boston would be winning either conference right now, but Denver's record feels more impressive than Milwaukee's.

While I'd argue that SGA should get the nod, with Jokic right behind him, with Giannis and Doncic following them, with the way things are right now, it infuriates me when people act like Jokic is untouchable or something like that.
He's right in the fray but he's arguably worse than last year(when he should have won) and even in his forte, the advanced stats that love him and his playing style, he's 1st, 2nd and even 4th in some of them, a far cry from when he was dominating.

People consider Jokic as the leader because he impacts winning more than anyone else by measurable metrics. I'm not sure why people think he's been worse than last season either, as there isn't anything that really backs that up. The fact he isn't a runaway leader in some advanced metrics is more to do with the growth of other players than it is Jokic playing worse.

[Mavrelous]

I don't think there's an argument for any player to be on the same tier with Jokic, but this is an MVP award, and record vs expectation plays a huge role, Neggets are on par with expectations, slightly below, SGA team record vastly exceeds expectations, and he has the impact stats to support it, this is why he's more suitable for MVP this year if he manages to stay top 2 seed in the west.

[mkot]

Giannis is a better scorer? Someone said? Really?

Jokic this season shooting 60% on hooks 62% on floaters 56%(!!!) on 2s (outside the post) 58%(!!!) on turnaround Js

His skillsets and physicality along with his playmaking make defense helpless.

I'd put Luka and SGA 2nd and 3rd. Giannis isn't even top 5 IMO and clearly behind Embiid.

[tsamo]

Giannis is a better scorer? Someone said? Really?

Jokic this season shooting 60% on hooks 62% on floaters 56%(!!!) on 2s (outside the post) 58%(!!!) on turnaround Js

His skillsets and physicality along with his playmaking make defense helpless.

I'd put Luka and SGA 2nd and 3rd. Giannis isn't even top 5 IMO and clearly behind Embiid.

Ay yes, Jokic, who most teams prefer to have him score than playmake in order to win as most times than not he can't beat you by himself. Over Giannis, which teams are literally building walls of players to stop him from scoring, because in a lot of situations his teammates cannot convert wide open shots.

[Johnny Firpo]

Apart from the championship run, Giannis has a clear drop off in the playoffs as a scorer. Jokic don't have that, in a playoff context, imo Jokic is definitely the more reliable, better scorer. He actually scores/averages more in the playoffs than Giannis and on much, much better efficiency. Comparable number of games too, 68 for Joker, 79 for Giannis.

[yannisk]

While I'd argue that SGA should get the nod, with Jokic right behind him, with Giannis and Doncic following them, with the way things are right now, it infuriates me when people act like Jokic is untouchable or something like that.

That's my feeling as well. It is a very close race between Jokic, SGA, Giannis and Luka (that would be my order) yet most people here act like Jokic is far and away (and the media try to push people like Tatum)

[Packbuckman]

I don't think there's an argument for any player to be on the same tier with Jokic, but this is an MVP award, and record vs expectation plays a huge role, Neggets are on par with expectations, slightly below, SGA team record vastly exceeds expectations, and he has the impact stats to support it, this is why he's more suitable for MVP this year if he manages to stay top 2 seed in the west.

Giannis is on the same tier as a player and these last 7 years he’s averaged 29pts 11.8 rebounds 5.7 assists and this year he’s been even better especially his shooting. Giannis 63 ts% would be even higher if he didn’t start out shooting 50% from the free throw line. Record wise the bucks would be up there with Boston if not for their ill advised hiring and firing of griffin as coach. Since doc took over Giannis and this defense has been great. There is a lot of season to go and if Giannis and the bucks continue on this trajectory with having one of the hardest schedules left mvp is still up for grabs and so is best player which ever one wins that 2nd title first and going forward will decide that.