RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[SlimShady83]

So glad they pinned a GOAT thread to clean up the 100 threads a day on MJ vs LeBron.

Glad Y'all with It

[SlimShady83]

How many times are people actually going to debate this It's insane.

And It's why I came up with the Idea of the sticky thread for It hahaha.

[LaLover11]

It's official..... My boy finally did it

[LaLover11]

Jordan joined a great organization The Bulls never made a Finals appearance before his arrival and haven’t made one since he left but they did manage to win 6 titles in his 11 full seasons with the team. Do you think that was just a coincidence? Also, the Bulls were no super team. Pippen was drafted and Rodman never made an All Star team as a Bull. By 1995, his defense was nowhere near his DPOTY peak as a Piston. He was basically a great rebounder and glue guy by then. Kukoc is a member of the basketball HOF but would never make the NBA HOF if they had one. Nice try though.

Let me correct myself. Was a part of a great organization; again, this is why they won 55 games and took the eventual eastern conference champs to 7 games. I don’t think there’s anything that demonstrates how good that team was then how good they were without him.

When I say super team I’m not limiting that to teams that were formed through free agency, I’m talking about a teams talent level. Pippen was drafted (by a good organization that also hired Phil Jackson). Rodman never made an allstar game as a Bull but who cares. He was the best rebounder in the league and still one of the greatest defenders of all time as a Bull. His first year he finished 6 in DPOY behind five of the greatest defenders of all time and was still all defensive first team. He actually finished top 15 in MVP votes.

Kukoc was literally the sixth man of the year for Jordan’s first ring of his second three peat and finished second in his second year.

Then, again, that roster was supplemented with guys like Ron Harper, who went from a 20 ppg scorer to playing bench minutes and being a defender, and guys like Kerr who I think still has the best three point percentage in NBA history.

Sir, this is a super team.

Rodman was 36/37/38 years old in his Bulls incarnation. Kukoc never made a single All Star team and Kerr was a journeyman whose career was extended because he signed with Chicago before Jordan came back. They were nowhere close to being a super team

Is 40yr old LeBron with AD/Rodman & Kukoc a super team?

[Swindle]

Jordan joined a great organization The Bulls never made a Finals appearance before his arrival and haven’t made one since he left but they did manage to win 6 titles in his 11 full seasons with the team. Do you think that was just a coincidence? Also, the Bulls were no super team. Pippen was drafted and Rodman never made an All Star team as a Bull. By 1995, his defense was nowhere near his DPOTY peak as a Piston. He was basically a great rebounder and glue guy by then. Kukoc is a member of the basketball HOF but would never make the NBA HOF if they had one. Nice try though.

Let me correct myself. Was a part of a great organization; again, this is why they won 55 games and took the eventual eastern conference champs to 7 games. I don’t think there’s anything that demonstrates how good that team was then how good they were without him.

When I say super team I’m not limiting that to teams that were formed through free agency, I’m talking about a teams talent level. Pippen was drafted (by a good organization that also hired Phil Jackson). Rodman never made an allstar game as a Bull but who cares. He was the best rebounder in the league and still one of the greatest defenders of all time as a Bull. His first year he finished 6 in DPOY behind five of the greatest defenders of all time and was still all defensive first team. He actually finished top 15 in MVP votes.

Kukoc was literally the sixth man of the year for Jordan’s first ring of his second three peat and finished second in his second year.

Then, again, that roster was supplemented with guys like Ron Harper, who went from a 20 ppg scorer to playing bench minutes and being a defender, and guys like Kerr who I think still has the best three point percentage in NBA history.

Sir, this is a super team.

Rodman was 36/37/38 years old in his Bulls incarnation. Kukoc never made a single All Star team and Kerr was a journeyman whose career was extended because he signed with Chicago before Jordan came back. They were nowhere close to being a super team

I just want to add that Pippen has more rings than 40 point games in his career. He very much was a guy that can do a bit of everything and a key to the Bulls 6 championships but Jordan somehow gets understated as a consistent and efficient ppg scorer. Also, Jordan has 173 40+ ppg regular season performances compared to 146 under 20 ppg performances which is fricking insane. This is a first team all defender we are talking about and that’s including the miserable Wizard years. His Playoff stats only get crazier.

[Tacoma]

The reasoning they give is "advantage in terms of sustained excellence is just too big to ignore, with LeBron at No. 1 and far ahead of His Airness in an increasing number of accolades and statistical categories."

But this "advantage" is due to ~25 years of medical and training advancement that today allows LeBron to play longer with "sustained excellence." It can be argued that if MJ had the medicine and advanced training that LeBron has today, MJ can play as long with equal sustained excellence. Not buying Hoopshype's argument.

[Luke]

I knew the fake Olympic MVP served to start this nonsense.

It's all media, folks

[Ainosterhaspie]

The reasoning they give is "advantage in terms of sustained excellence is just too big to ignore, with LeBron at No. 1 and far ahead of His Airness in an increasing number of accolades and statistical categories."

But this "advantage" is due to ~25 years of medical and training advancement that today allows LeBron to play longer with "sustained excellence." It can be argued that if MJ had the medicine and advanced training that LeBron has today, MJ can play as long with equal sustained excellence. Not buying Hoopshype's argument.

Not sure how you can argue that when MJ was famous for doing all kinds of things that broke his body down quicker. I doubt he cuts his vices, all night gambling and parties he can take advantage of modern medical knowledge.

[Rainwater]

yeah ok. and still have KD above Steph.

Its true he does have two finals MVPs over Steph.


(Just trying to get under the skin of Warrior fans lol)

[Hornet Mania]

The reasoning they give is "advantage in terms of sustained excellence is just too big to ignore, with LeBron at No. 1 and far ahead of His Airness in an increasing number of accolades and statistical categories."

But this "advantage" is due to ~25 years of medical and training advancement that today allows LeBron to play longer with "sustained excellence." It can be argued that if MJ had the medicine and advanced training that LeBron has today, MJ can play as long with equal sustained excellence. Not buying Hoopshype's argument.

Not sure how you can argue that when MJ was famous for doing all kinds of things that broke his body down quicker. I doubt he cuts his vices, all night gambling and parties he can take advantage of modern medical knowledge.

Aside from medical advancements, I also wonder how reversing the order might change attitudes. Would Lebron still be so dedicated if he were declared consensus GOAT 10 years ago? Part of the reason Jordan retired, twice, when he could have kept playing was not having anything left to chase. If the roles were reversed I could definitely imagine the hyper competitive MJ clawing for more accolades into his late 30s to earn the respect he felt he deserved.

Obviously impossible to know, but it's safe to say what drives players at the highest level is context sensitive.

[MavsDirk41]

Let me correct myself. Was a part of a great organization; again, this is why they won 55 games and took the eventual eastern conference champs to 7 games. I don’t think there’s anything that demonstrates how good that team was then how good they were without him.

When I say super team I’m not limiting that to teams that were formed through free agency, I’m talking about a teams talent level. Pippen was drafted (by a good organization that also hired Phil Jackson). Rodman never made an allstar game as a Bull but who cares. He was the best rebounder in the league and still one of the greatest defenders of all time as a Bull. His first year he finished 6 in DPOY behind five of the greatest defenders of all time and was still all defensive first team. He actually finished top 15 in MVP votes.

Kukoc was literally the sixth man of the year for Jordan’s first ring of his second three peat and finished second in his second year.

Then, again, that roster was supplemented with guys like Ron Harper, who went from a 20 ppg scorer to playing bench minutes and being a defender, and guys like Kerr who I think still has the best three point percentage in NBA history.

Sir, this is a super team.

FWIW in 1995 the Bulls had a 23–25 record at the All Star break. Jordan comes back and the Bulls go 13–4.

The Bulls were 34-31 when MJ came back and only needed to win 3 out of the last 17gms to make the playoffs. Safe to say they would have made the postseason without him.

You are correct, but they would have faced Orlando or Indiana in the 1st round and been swept in an embarrassing fashion with no Jordan. They finished as the 5th seed and played Charlotte in the 1st round. Jordan put up 32/7/6 with 2 steals while Pippen put up 16/7/6 with 2 steals. They lose to Charlotte without him too. The bottom of the east sucked. They were at least a threat with Jordan in the lineup.

[Rust_Cohle]

If he wasn't better the MJ at 20 years, then how could he be at 21? Makes no sense to me.

Cause more playing improves rankings? Obviously if all you care about are rings or best at their best, that wont' work for you. But most people tend to value more quality than less.

Rings over everything is the reality, I'd much rather have MJ's career than LeBron's.

[Swindle]

Hoops Hype is a magazine I’ve heard of so like it or not, that’s a big win for Lebron. What changed their mind though? Please don’t tell me Olympics MVP because I will delete my account if that’s the case

[MavsDirk41]

MJ played against international plumbers and firemen. And one of the best of them (Kukoc) was on his own team.

In 20 years they will be saying James, Curry, and Durant played against international plumbers and firefighters in the olympics as well.

[MavsDirk41]

Was it the Olympics mvp or IST mvp? Both are extremely important.

[art_tatum]

The reasoning they give is "advantage in terms of sustained excellence is just too big to ignore, with LeBron at No. 1 and far ahead of His Airness in an increasing number of accolades and statistical categories."

But this "advantage" is due to ~25 years of medical and training advancement that today allows LeBron to play longer with "sustained excellence." It can be argued that if MJ had the medicine and advanced training that LeBron has today, MJ can play as long with equal sustained excellence. Not buying Hoopshype's argument.

And what accolades is he far ahead in? Not championships fmvp mvps or dop
Only counting stats

[Asianiac_24]

I honestly don't think MJ cares at all himself.

Also, winning gold in the Olympics as part of Team USA is not really an accomplishment. Winning gold for Argentina or Spain or any other country is a huge accomplishment, but Team USA is the heavy favorites, with or without LeBron in 2024, or MJ in 1992.

[Jcool0]

During his prime, everyone here was declaring him 2 or GOAT. It was maddening.

Just one publication but:

Shaq was 4th. Tim Duncan was 8th. Kobe was 10th. LeBron James was 31st.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html

It's just as I had mentioned - a player's legacy goes downhill as he declines and especially after he retires.
What you posted is from 2011 as he was declining
It doesn't change the narrative, media or realgm during Kobe's prime though.

He was also considered better than Lebron until that started changing around 2010.

Downhill? He was still finishing in the top 5 of MVP votes and had just won his 5th title. So around 10 was the best he was ever going to do. He also had another 2 years of peak performance so he wasn't declining. Also this is a GOAT discussion not a who is the current best NBA player.

[dhsilv2]

If he wasn't better the MJ at 20 years, then how could he be at 21? Makes no sense to me.

Cause more playing improves rankings? Obviously if all you care about are rings or best at their best, that wont' work for you. But most people tend to value more quality than less.

Rings over everything is the reality, I'd much rather have MJ's career than LeBron's.

That isn't reality, it's anything but. That's winner bias which is fundamentally incorrect. If the question is who was the greatest player. IF you're asking best career then you have to set reasonable and consistent value on all success.

Or in short...if your argument could be made on ESPN. You're just wrong. And I don't mean wrong about basketball. I mean wrong about how to fundamentally think.

[bledredwine]

Just one publication but:

Shaq was 4th. Tim Duncan was 8th. Kobe was 10th. LeBron James was 31st.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html

It's just as I had mentioned - a player's legacy goes downhill as he declines and especially after he retires.
What you posted is from 2011 as he was declining
It doesn't change the narrative, media or realgm during Kobe's prime though.

He was also considered better than Lebron until that started changing around 2010.

Downhill? He was still finishing in the top 5 of MVP votes and had just won his 5th title. So around 10 was the best he was ever going to do. He also had another 2 years of peak performance so he wasn't declining. Also this is a GOAT discussion not a who is the current best NBA player.

Kobe was definitely in the slow decline, statistically and especially athletically. Primes typically happen at around age 27 and he was 32. More importantly, he was declining in the sense that he wasn't considered the best in the league anymore.

That's what changes the trajectory completely. Even the last couple of years, you've seen "Jokic GOAT" threads or comparisons to Lebron after his MVP compaigns as the best in the league. So Kobe was definitely in the decline.

But as I showed, in 2009 and before, he was all the hype. Your article was from a later year.
I'm not making this up - I was on the nba.com forums and later here, arguing about it constantly. Kobe GOAT, Kobe GOAT.
Kobe did ____, Jordan never did. Fine.

As you saw above, in 2009, Lebron stated Kobe was still better but he was catching up. Kobe was a great player,
despite what this forum likes to think.