RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[Jamaaliver]

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[Jamaaliver]

Lebron's longevity is unrivaled...

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[Ainosterhaspie]

LeBron's first 13 post seasons he won 35 series. Jordan in his 13 post seasons won 30. LeBron's longevity edge isn't just about hanging around longer and not doing anything.

Just counting LeBron's first 13 playoffs makes no sense though because it excludes a FMVP title run. Add that and he has 39 series won to Jordan's 30. He also got to a WCF that we still haven't counted bring his total series won to 41. LeBron has an 11 series won advantage over Jordan.

This can't be dismissed as meaningless longevity. It's post season success, and unless we're going to reduce the entirety of people's career to titles won, it has to be part of the picture. Even if we toss out all the years where LeBron didn't win a post season series as meaningless longevity (have to toss Jordan's first three years to be consistent if we're doing that) LeBron still emerges with significantly more post season series won.

LeBron is also having that success over a much longer window of time. We can look at first and last title/FMVP, 9 seasons played from first to last for LeBron compared to 7 for Jordan. It gets worse for Jordan from there. LeBron's first and last finals appearances are 14 playing years apart. That's longer than Jordan's effective playing career and double the gap between Jordan's seasons played from first to last finals appearance.

There is a gaping chasm between the two when it comes to time spent playing at that level. And in all of this I'm throwing out anywhere from 4-7 years of LeBron's career. And these are years where he was playing at an all NBA level, not just being a middle of the pack scrub, but a top 10 or 15 guy.

LeBron's first and last top 10 MVP finishes cover a span of 19 seasons played. For Jordan that number is 13. LeBron has 14 top 5 MVP finishes, Jordan, 10.

But some of you all want to measure greatness by erasing half of players' careers. When you have to pretend that much play at or near the top of the league is irrelevant to the discussion, your position is crumbling.

[FarBeyondDriven]

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I think the issue with Steph being in the GOAT conversation is that he'd easily be the worst defender in the top 10 and he played in a very weak era with a couple of rings being judged harshly due to KD. You can't just put new players in the conversation because then you'd have to take someone out and who would that be? Everyone else is simply as or more accomplished and better all-around players. He's just outside the top 10 imho because he's among a handful of transformative players (Dr. J, Kareem, Magic, Bird, MJ) and he carried the Warriors for two of their championships and both are impressive given the circumstances.

[Jamaaliver]

I think the issue with Steph being in the GOAT conversation is that he'd easily be the worst defender in the top 10 and he played in a very weak era with a couple of rings being judged harshly due to KD. You can't just put new players in the conversation because then you'd have to take someone out and who would that be? Everyone else is simply as or more accomplished and better all-around players. He's just outside the top 10 imho because he's among a handful of transformative players (Dr. J, Kareem, Magic, Bird, MJ) and he carried the Warriors for two of their championships and both are impressive given the circumstances.

No
Lies
Told

I'd put Steph in that Kobe/Magic Tier of Greatness

[Special_Puppy]

Total Minutes Played. Regular Season and Playoffs Combined
LeBron 70400
Kareem 66297
Jordan 48485
Russell 48223
LeBron's longevity advantage over the field is going to be absolutely insane by the end of his career
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mp_career_c.html

[Special_Puppy]

lol, all of these weird longevity posts.

Longevity and also dominance for so long.Peak,prime,longevity,etc for 22 years and counting!

If you want to give it to LeBron on the basis of longevity that’s fine/not unreasonable even imo.

An alternative view is that Jordan couldn’t have started as early as LeBron even if he had wanted to, and that leading a team to titles as the FMVP at the ages of 33, 34 and 35 including possibly the best team ever to the best season ever in one of those seasons constitutes adequate longevity, particularly given the advances in sports science and training since Jordan’s day.

I tend to agree with others possibly involving bias on my part that LeBron’s stats hitherto since his own last title at the age of 35 have been somewhat empty given his teams haven’t really contended and he hasn’t played much defense. Even for me if the Lakers make a deep play-off run this season, with him playing as he has been recently which includes playing defense, at the age of 40 even if he is second banana to Luka that clinches the longevity debate and may significantly alter the overall debate.

I'm not sure how its empty. LeBron was like the 8th best player in the league in 2021, 7th best player in the league in 2022, and the 13th best player in the league in 2023 (based on a composite of advanced stats). Top 7-13th level seasons are very valuable!

[Jamaaliver]

Stephen A says we should just close this thread and walk away from the debate...

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[Homer38]

Stephen A says we should just close this thread and walk away from the debate...

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This is not the first time Stephen A said something like that...I remember of the in season tournament last year when he said the same thing but he is unable to do that for more than a week

Actions speak louder than words....

[michaelm]

Longevity and also dominance for so long.Peak,prime,longevity,etc for 22 years and counting!

If you want to give it to LeBron on the basis of longevity that’s fine/not unreasonable even imo.

An alternative view is that Jordan couldn’t have started as early as LeBron even if he had wanted to, and that leading a team to titles as the FMVP at the ages of 33, 34 and 35 including possibly the best team ever to the best season ever in one of those seasons constitutes adequate longevity, particularly given the advances in sports science and training since Jordan’s day.

I tend to agree with others possibly involving bias on my part that LeBron’s stats hitherto since his own last title at the age of 35 have been somewhat empty given his teams haven’t really contended and he hasn’t played much defense. Even for me if the Lakers make a deep play-off run this season, with him playing as he has been recently which includes playing defense, at the age of 40 even if he is second banana to Luka that clinches the longevity debate and may significantly alter the overall debate.

I'm not sure how its empty. LeBron was like the 8th best player in the league in 2021, 7th best player in the league in 2022, and the 13th best player in the league in 2023 (based on a composite of advanced stats). Top 7-13th level seasons are very valuable!

I did say hitherto, now looking like he is still of that calibre with a chance to contend but basically prior to recent weeks in this season his teams weren’t in genuine contention, he wasn’t playing much defense, and he seemed to some to be pursuing stats, particularly offensive stats as an end in themselves.

[Jamaaliver]

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[Homer38]

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The graphic is wrong since he was at 56% in 2013 from the field

[Homer38]

If you want to give it to LeBron on the basis of longevity that’s fine/not unreasonable even imo.

An alternative view is that Jordan couldn’t have started as early as LeBron even if he had wanted to, and that leading a team to titles as the FMVP at the ages of 33, 34 and 35 including possibly the best team ever to the best season ever in one of those seasons constitutes adequate longevity, particularly given the advances in sports science and training since Jordan’s day.

I tend to agree with others possibly involving bias on my part that LeBron’s stats hitherto since his own last title at the age of 35 have been somewhat empty given his teams haven’t really contended and he hasn’t played much defense. Even for me if the Lakers make a deep play-off run this season, with him playing as he has been recently which includes playing defense, at the age of 40 even if he is second banana to Luka that clinches the longevity debate and may significantly alter the overall debate.

I'm not sure how its empty. LeBron was like the 8th best player in the league in 2021, 7th best player in the league in 2022, and the 13th best player in the league in 2023 (based on a composite of advanced stats). Top 7-13th level seasons are very valuable!

I did say hitherto, now looking like he is still of that calibre with a chance to contend but basically prior to recent weeks in this season his teams weren’t in genuine contention, he wasn’t playing much defense, and he seemed to some to be pursuing stats, particularly offensive stats as an end in themselves.

This is not fair to ask a 38-40 years old player to carry a average team as if he was in his peak....They were still 31-19 this year before the first game of Luka....They were of course not a title contender without Luka but it was still better that the warriors without Butler this season but it did not mean that Curry was playing just for the stats...Same for LeBron

[Special_Puppy]

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Good example of stat inflation

[The High Cyde]

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Good example of stat inflation

The stats are also ****ing wrong. Idk why Jordan fans keep fabricating stats. It’s weird and needs to stop.

[bledredwine]

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Good example of stat inflation

The stats are also ****ing wrong. Idk why Jordan fans keep fabricating stats. It’s weird and needs to stop.

You also might be misreading it as it's deceptive. It says "after turning 40", not the bball reference season for 40 years old.

It's oddly cherry picked just like Lebron fan posts of "first 13 seasons in the playoffs, wins" and that sort of garbage.

[bledredwine]

Peak season stats

https://www.reddit.com/r/NBATalk/comments/1gzv97b/peak_stats_comparison_between_mj_and_lebron/

And none of this takes into account the crazy triple double stat inflation. In the 80s, 90s, the triple double leader typically had less than 10 in the entire season. Even Magic peaked at 17 in a season.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/trp_dbl_yearly.html

If these comparisons took era/stat inflation into account, Jordan would absolutely slaughter Lebron.
No way does a guy with 1 scoring title average 30 in the 90s, especially given how limited as a scorer he is compared to Jordan.
It was a big man's game and not a perimeter player cakewalk.

[The High Cyde]

Good example of stat inflation

The stats are also ****ing wrong. Idk why Jordan fans keep fabricating stats. It’s weird and needs to stop.

You also might be misreading it as it's deceptive. It says "after turning 40", not the bball reference season for 40 years old.

It's oddly cherry picked just like Lebron fan posts of "first 13 seasons in the playoffs, wins" and that sort of garbage.

I mean if you guys are completely okay fabricating stats more power to you, but in the real world that’s insulting and completely dishonest not just to LBJ but MJ as well. Liars like the OG poster of that tweet will get called out every time. Integrity should still matter in this day and age, despite clowns running the circus elsewhere.

[michaelm]

I'm not sure how its empty. LeBron was like the 8th best player in the league in 2021, 7th best player in the league in 2022, and the 13th best player in the league in 2023 (based on a composite of advanced stats). Top 7-13th level seasons are very valuable!

I did say hitherto, now looking like he is still of that calibre with a chance to contend but basically prior to recent weeks in this season his teams weren’t in genuine contention, he wasn’t playing much defense, and he seemed to some to be pursuing stats, particularly offensive stats as an end in themselves.

This is not fair to ask a 38-40 years old player to carry a average team as if he was in his peak....They were still 31-19 this year before the first game of Luka....They were of course not a title contender without Luka but it was still better that the warriors without Butler this season but it did not mean that Curry was playing just for the stats...Same for LeBron

No one was claiming Curry’s current play was raising his stature against greats of the game though, so false equivalence there, since the argument in regard to LeBron was that his play past the age of 35 had put him past Jordan. The Luka and Butler trades actually were similar in their effects, if not to the same degree, many Curry/GSW fans thought he was significantly past his peak and not trying as hard on defense as in his heyday. When he did actively chase the 3 point record a while back he looked a different and worse player temporarily. I don’t think he has been a stats chaser in general over his career cf all the half court heaves on the buzzer. He would probably like to extend his 3 point record to 3000 made 3 point shots.

[Homer38]

Peak season stats

https://www.reddit.com/r/NBATalk/comments/1gzv97b/peak_stats_comparison_between_mj_and_lebron/

And none of this takes into account the crazy triple double stat inflation. In the 80s, 90s, the triple double leader typically had less than 10 in the entire season. Even Magic peaked at 17 in a season.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/trp_dbl_yearly.html

If these comparisons took era/stat inflation into account, Jordan would absolutely slaughter Lebron.
No way does a guy with 1 scoring title average 30 in the 90s, especially given how limited as a scorer he is compared to Jordan.
It was a big man's game and not a perimeter player cakewalk.

I could make a argument that 2016-2018 LeBron was better that Jordan from 1991-1993 come playoffs time....Only difference,the Bulls did not face a all-time great teams in the finals in those years and Jordan did not had a trash team in none of those years like LeBron had in 2018.And it was not the peak for LeBron