2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1)

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Who is the MVP so far? (Poll Re-set 1/14/22)

Stephen Curry
14
5%
Nikola Jokic
111
39%
Giannis Antetokounmpo
75
26%
Kevin Durant
6
2%
Joel Embiid
39
14%
Chris Paul
15
5%
Ja Morant
8
3%
Rudy Gobert
3
1%
DeMar Derozan
7
2%
LeBron James
10
3%
 
Total votes: 288

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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#921 » by WarriorGM » Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:55 pm

MaNs wrote:I find it deconcerning that Curry's fans disregard almost all of the stats and any serious observation of the game to promote Curry as an MVP, instead of an analysis they presente us with obscure context-based stats and poetry on Currys game. I would say that they remind me of Kobe's fans when they tried to argue around 2010 that Kobe was still better than Lebron. Though, they had a better case and were more reasonable as Kobe was much closer to Lebron statistically than Curry is to Jokic and Giannis right now. Also kobe had the reputation of a better defender and leader than Lebron at the point.
Anyway, if it is to give to Curry for gravity and team record(the only serious argument in his favor) I propose to give it to Chris Paul as a carreer accomplishment. And let's make some poetry as good Chris Paul fans. If Curry has gravity then Chris Paul have the "eye of the tiger". Just by the look in his eyes he puts fear in the opponents. Don't believe in PPG, RPG, PER, BPM, WS and the like. They don't account for Chris Paul's eye of the tiger. Why do you think that Suns got good defence? Do you think that Ayton, Crowder and Bridges are a potent defensive frontcourt? You are mistaken. They are bums. It's Chris Paul's eye of the tiger that does the work, even when he is in the perimeter the opponent will lose a lay-up because he fears Chris Paul. On offense? Will you tell me that the whole Suns team is potent offensively? No, it's all Chris Paul - the opponents are trembling of Chris Paul's eye of the tiger when Booker makes an easy 3. What do you say realgm? Curry's gravity or Chris Paul's eye of the tiger.
In a more serious note now I think that this is a rare year for MVP award as the most productive players play in teams with many problems ( mostly injuries) and they don't have formidable records.The best teams are teams who are winning as teams thanks to the sheer number of good players they have and their top players don't stand out. For the moment I think GIannis is the frontrunner as he has the best combination of impact and record of all the top players, followed by Durant and Jokic. If the Bucks continue to have injury problems and keep losing games maybe he falls off . Durant is a strong candidate and maybe Embid becomes one. For Curry to win it he will have to play really well (as he did in the beginning of the year) for the rest of the way.

P.S - BTW I agree that Curry has "gravity" in the sense that he attracts defenders in the perimeter. But all great players have such advantages. For example Embid destroys small teams(many teams in the league), Gobert shuts down the post and Giannis and Jokic offer a unique combination of skills.


If you don't understand how Curry's gravity from half court is different from the gravity of players next to the rim then you haven't understood a thing that has happened in the game the past decade.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#922 » by cpower » Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:11 pm

MaNs wrote:I find it deconcerning that Curry's fans disregard almost all of the stats and any serious observation of the game to promote Curry as an MVP, instead of an analysis they presente us with obscure context-based stats and poetry on Currys game. I would say that they remind me of Kobe's fans when they tried to argue around 2010 that Kobe was still better than Lebron. Though, they had a better case and were more reasonable as Kobe was much closer to Lebron statistically than Curry is to Jokic and Giannis right now. Also kobe had the reputation of a better defender and leader than Lebron at the point.
Anyway, if it is to give to Curry for gravity and team record(the only serious argument in his favor) I propose to give it to Chris Paul as a carreer accomplishment. And let's make some poetry as good Chris Paul fans. If Curry has gravity then Chris Paul have the "eye of the tiger". Just by the look in his eyes he puts fear in the opponents. Don't believe in PPG, RPG, PER, BPM, WS and the like. They don't account for Chris Paul's eye of the tiger. Why do you think that Suns got good defence? Do you think that Ayton, Crowder and Bridges are a potent defensive frontcourt? You are mistaken. They are bums. It's Chris Paul's eye of the tiger that does the work, even when he is in the perimeter the opponent will lose a lay-up because he fears Chris Paul. On offense? Will you tell me that the whole Suns team is potent offensively? No, it's all Chris Paul - the opponents are trembling of Chris Paul's eye of the tiger when Booker makes an easy 3. What do you say realgm? Curry's gravity or Chris Paul's eye of the tiger.
In a more serious note now I think that this is a rare year for MVP award as the most productive players play in teams with many problems ( mostly injuries) and they don't have formidable records.The best teams are teams who are winning as teams thanks to the sheer number of good players they have and their top players don't stand out. For the moment I think GIannis is the frontrunner as he has the best combination of impact and record of all the top players, followed by Durant and Jokic. If the Bucks continue to have injury problems and keep losing games maybe he falls off . Durant is a strong candidate and maybe Embid becomes one. For Curry to win it he will have to play really well (as he did in the beginning of the year) for the rest of the way.

P.S - BTW I agree that Curry has "gravity" in the sense that he attracts defenders in the perimeter. But all great players have such advantages. For example Embid destroys small teams(many teams in the league), Gobert shuts down the post and Giannis and Jokic offer a unique combination of skills.

you missed the key aspect the analysis.. why do you think the Warriors is having the best record of the game so far without Klay? It's Steph, he is our offense. Yes his shooting has not been otherworldly but his on/off has always been amazing and led the team to beat some of the tougher components like Nets, Mem, Suns and Jazz...Not to mention he had to operate most of the time with 3 bad shooters on the court in Dray, Looney and Poole (33% on three). Can you imagine the level of pressure he has to deal with? The other player who has equal or bigger impact is Jokic but he is penalized by the team record. KD and Giannis are looking good on paper but the impact is just not on the same level, e.g. Jrue is your on/off leader for most of the game says a lot. Just look at the record, it tells everything you need to know really.

Lastly lets conclude with his insane on/off
ON: 71 Win pace
OFF: 26 Win pace
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#923 » by dribble1614 » Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:34 am

uhhh.... i'm sorry folks. wardell curry has a 22.1 per. on what planet is he even a top 5 mvp candidate, let alone the league favorite to win the award? that would simply be one of the worst per's in nba history to ever win the award.

earlier in the season he was the clear favorite, not anymore with his stinker shooting performances.

derozan, giannis, jokic, durant, lebron, trae are all ahead of him.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#924 » by AmIWrongDude » Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:49 am

Can we please ban the word “gravity” because somehow only Steph has it according to some people. It’s the new “killer instinct”.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#925 » by Hobo4President » Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:01 am

I mean the thing with Steph, even if he's having a bit of a shooting slump, they have to guard him like he's lights out. That's why his impact metrics are insane despite lower raw production. That's enough to have him in the MVP discussion.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#926 » by Big J » Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:22 am

AmIWrongDude wrote:Can we please ban the word “gravity” because somehow only Steph has it according to some people. It’s the new “killer instinct”.


Except that it can actually be measured, and Curry leads the league in it by a ridiculous margin.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#927 » by eyeatoma » Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:10 am

Joel Embiid continues to be on a ridiculous tear. Has 23 and 7 on .545 fg and 100% freethrows at halftime.

Sixers win this game and they've won 7 straight. Sixers don't have Danny Green, Seth Curry and Tyrese Maxey today.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#928 » by Tony15 » Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:11 am

eyeatoma wrote:Joel Embiid continues to be on a ridiculous tear. Has 23 and 7 on .545 fg and 100% freethrows at halftime.

Sixers win this game and they've won 7 straight. Sixers don't have Danny Green, Seth Curry and Tyrese Maxey today.
Houston....

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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#929 » by eyeatoma » Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:25 am

Tony15 wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:Joel Embiid continues to be on a ridiculous tear. Has 23 and 7 on .545 fg and 100% freethrows at halftime.

Sixers win this game and they've won 7 straight. Sixers don't have Danny Green, Seth Curry and Tyrese Maxey today.
Houston....

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I mean he is doing it to good teams as well man. You can only play who is on your schedule.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#930 » by Tony15 » Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:43 am

eyeatoma wrote:
Tony15 wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:Joel Embiid continues to be on a ridiculous tear. Has 23 and 7 on .545 fg and 100% freethrows at halftime.

Sixers win this game and they've won 7 straight. Sixers don't have Danny Green, Seth Curry and Tyrese Maxey today.
Houston....

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app


I mean he is doing it to good teams as well man. You can only play who is on your schedule.
True enough. I do grapple with who's better between he and Jokic.

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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#931 » by MindState » Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:43 am

Cant see Giannis being near the top of this race if the Bucks continue to dissapoint record wise.

If hes gonna win his 3rd MVP and ovecome voter fatigue, hes going to have to impress mightily during the regular season. A 26-17 record and 4th place in the east just isnt cutting it.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#932 » by mediocrityrules » Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:50 am

MindState wrote:Cant see Giannis being near the top of this race if the Bucks continue to dissapoint record wise.

If hes gonna win his 3rd MVP and ovecome voter fatigue, hes going to have to impress mightily during the regular season. A 26-17 record and 4th place in the east just isnt cutting it.


I think that winning the 'chip got rid of any voter fatigue around Giannis. If Bucks didn't win i don't think he'd ever win another MVP without a championship.

Bucks record will change when Jrue is back in the line-up (getting the coach back will also help markedly). Lack of ball handlers has killed the Bucks as much as anything, and just such inconsistency in the line-up, you can see plays and schemes not being executed as they should be. No team has put more 5 man combo's on the floor this season than the Bucks, but as they don't ever get much attention in the media or even on this forum, it tends to go unnoticed. People just look at record without the context.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#933 » by SpreeS » Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:26 am

mediocrityrules wrote:
MindState wrote:Cant see Giannis being near the top of this race if the Bucks continue to dissapoint record wise.

If hes gonna win his 3rd MVP and ovecome voter fatigue, hes going to have to impress mightily during the regular season. A 26-17 record and 4th place in the east just isnt cutting it.


I think that winning the 'chip got rid of any voter fatigue around Giannis. If Bucks didn't win i don't think he'd ever win another MVP without a championship.

Bucks record will change when Jrue is back in the line-up (getting the coach back will also help markedly). Lack of ball handlers has killed the Bucks as much as anything, and just such inconsistency in the line-up, you can see plays and schemes not being executed as they should be. No team has put more 5 man combo's on the floor this season than the Bucks, but as they don't ever get much attention in the media or even on this forum, it tends to go unnoticed. People just look at record without the context.
.

All 5 TOP teams in the East had the same injuries/Covid issues and Bucks is the 4th in standings. PHI with one more win will catch them too.

Derozan 25-9
Embiid 20-8
KD 22-11
Giannis 22-12

I could forget DEN records due injuries playing against way healthier the West teams, but MIL record is a problem.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#934 » by Hussien Fatal » Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:28 am

31, 8 and 6 with 2 Blocks in just 26 minutes and now the Sixers are 20-8 when Joel plays…MVP! 7th straight win and 7th straight 30 Piece.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#935 » by SpreeS » Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:40 am

Yea, if we would look at Embiid/Giannis teams and looking at teams winning records…hands down its Embiid for lock over Giannis at the moment.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#936 » by MaNs » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:06 am

cpower wrote:
MaNs wrote:I find it deconcerning that Curry's fans disregard almost all of the stats and any serious observation of the game to promote Curry as an MVP, instead of an analysis they presente us with obscure context-based stats and poetry on Currys game. I would say that they remind me of Kobe's fans when they tried to argue around 2010 that Kobe was still better than Lebron. Though, they had a better case and were more reasonable as Kobe was much closer to Lebron statistically than Curry is to Jokic and Giannis right now. Also kobe had the reputation of a better defender and leader than Lebron at the point.
Anyway, if it is to give to Curry for gravity and team record(the only serious argument in his favor) I propose to give it to Chris Paul as a carreer accomplishment. And let's make some poetry as good Chris Paul fans. If Curry has gravity then Chris Paul have the "eye of the tiger". Just by the look in his eyes he puts fear in the opponents. Don't believe in PPG, RPG, PER, BPM, WS and the like. They don't account for Chris Paul's eye of the tiger. Why do you think that Suns got good defence? Do you think that Ayton, Crowder and Bridges are a potent defensive frontcourt? You are mistaken. They are bums. It's Chris Paul's eye of the tiger that does the work, even when he is in the perimeter the opponent will lose a lay-up because he fears Chris Paul. On offense? Will you tell me that the whole Suns team is potent offensively? No, it's all Chris Paul - the opponents are trembling of Chris Paul's eye of the tiger when Booker makes an easy 3. What do you say realgm? Curry's gravity or Chris Paul's eye of the tiger.
In a more serious note now I think that this is a rare year for MVP award as the most productive players play in teams with many problems ( mostly injuries) and they don't have formidable records.The best teams are teams who are winning as teams thanks to the sheer number of good players they have and their top players don't stand out. For the moment I think GIannis is the frontrunner as he has the best combination of impact and record of all the top players, followed by Durant and Jokic. If the Bucks continue to have injury problems and keep losing games maybe he falls off . Durant is a strong candidate and maybe Embid becomes one. For Curry to win it he will have to play really well (as he did in the beginning of the year) for the rest of the way.

P.S - BTW I agree that Curry has "gravity" in the sense that he attracts defenders in the perimeter. But all great players have such advantages. For example Embid destroys small teams(many teams in the league), Gobert shuts down the post and Giannis and Jokic offer a unique combination of skills.

you missed the key aspect the analysis.. why do you think the Warriors is having the best record of the game so far without Klay? It's Steph, he is our offense. Yes his shooting has not been otherworldly but his on/off has always been amazing and led the team to beat some of the tougher components like Nets, Mem, Suns and Jazz...Not to mention he had to operate most of the time with 3 bad shooters on the court in Dray, Looney and Poole (33% on three). Can you imagine the level of pressure he has to deal with? The other player who has equal or bigger impact is Jokic but he is penalized by the team record. KD and Giannis are looking good on paper but the impact is just not on the same level, e.g. Jrue is your on/off leader for most of the game says a lot. Just look at the record, it tells everything you need to know really.

Lastly lets conclude with his insane on/off
ON: 71 Win pace
OFF: 26 Win pace


Warriors have a good record because they have the best defense on the league and around 10 productive players that have been largely available. It's not all Curry gravity as you tell us. Curry carries in large part the offense but this is true for most players that are in the running for the MVP. ON/OFF is the most context based stat in the game. What about other metrics? What do you say about the fact that Curry has about 10 PER less than Giannis?
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#937 » by mediocrityrules » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:13 am

SpreeS wrote:
mediocrityrules wrote:
MindState wrote:Cant see Giannis being near the top of this race if the Bucks continue to dissapoint record wise.

If hes gonna win his 3rd MVP and ovecome voter fatigue, hes going to have to impress mightily during the regular season. A 26-17 record and 4th place in the east just isnt cutting it.


I think that winning the 'chip got rid of any voter fatigue around Giannis. If Bucks didn't win i don't think he'd ever win another MVP without a championship.

Bucks record will change when Jrue is back in the line-up (getting the coach back will also help markedly). Lack of ball handlers has killed the Bucks as much as anything, and just such inconsistency in the line-up, you can see plays and schemes not being executed as they should be. No team has put more 5 man combo's on the floor this season than the Bucks, but as they don't ever get much attention in the media or even on this forum, it tends to go unnoticed. People just look at record without the context.
.

All 5 TOP teams in the East had the same injuries/Covid issues and Bucks is the 4th in standings. PHI with one more win will catch them too.

Derozan 25-9
Embiid 20-8
KD 22-11
Giannis 22-12

I could forget DEN records due injuries playing against way healthier the West teams, but MIL record is a problem.


They've all had injuries and Covid, but when you compare that Philly have played 295 different 5 man combo's, the Bulls 286, the Nets 344, and the Bucks have played 526, it gives you an extent of just how much the Bucks have had to endure with availability. And yes the Bucks are still one of those teams that is yet to put it's best starting line-up on court once this season.

This is our best starting line-up, and these guys have not been able to play together for a single minute this season yet.
Lopez
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#938 » by Big J » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:19 am

MaNs wrote:
cpower wrote:
MaNs wrote:I find it deconcerning that Curry's fans disregard almost all of the stats and any serious observation of the game to promote Curry as an MVP, instead of an analysis they presente us with obscure context-based stats and poetry on Currys game. I would say that they remind me of Kobe's fans when they tried to argue around 2010 that Kobe was still better than Lebron. Though, they had a better case and were more reasonable as Kobe was much closer to Lebron statistically than Curry is to Jokic and Giannis right now. Also kobe had the reputation of a better defender and leader than Lebron at the point.
Anyway, if it is to give to Curry for gravity and team record(the only serious argument in his favor) I propose to give it to Chris Paul as a carreer accomplishment. And let's make some poetry as good Chris Paul fans. If Curry has gravity then Chris Paul have the "eye of the tiger". Just by the look in his eyes he puts fear in the opponents. Don't believe in PPG, RPG, PER, BPM, WS and the like. They don't account for Chris Paul's eye of the tiger. Why do you think that Suns got good defence? Do you think that Ayton, Crowder and Bridges are a potent defensive frontcourt? You are mistaken. They are bums. It's Chris Paul's eye of the tiger that does the work, even when he is in the perimeter the opponent will lose a lay-up because he fears Chris Paul. On offense? Will you tell me that the whole Suns team is potent offensively? No, it's all Chris Paul - the opponents are trembling of Chris Paul's eye of the tiger when Booker makes an easy 3. What do you say realgm? Curry's gravity or Chris Paul's eye of the tiger.
In a more serious note now I think that this is a rare year for MVP award as the most productive players play in teams with many problems ( mostly injuries) and they don't have formidable records.The best teams are teams who are winning as teams thanks to the sheer number of good players they have and their top players don't stand out. For the moment I think GIannis is the frontrunner as he has the best combination of impact and record of all the top players, followed by Durant and Jokic. If the Bucks continue to have injury problems and keep losing games maybe he falls off . Durant is a strong candidate and maybe Embid becomes one. For Curry to win it he will have to play really well (as he did in the beginning of the year) for the rest of the way.

P.S - BTW I agree that Curry has "gravity" in the sense that he attracts defenders in the perimeter. But all great players have such advantages. For example Embid destroys small teams(many teams in the league), Gobert shuts down the post and Giannis and Jokic offer a unique combination of skills.

you missed the key aspect the analysis.. why do you think the Warriors is having the best record of the game so far without Klay? It's Steph, he is our offense. Yes his shooting has not been otherworldly but his on/off has always been amazing and led the team to beat some of the tougher components like Nets, Mem, Suns and Jazz...Not to mention he had to operate most of the time with 3 bad shooters on the court in Dray, Looney and Poole (33% on three). Can you imagine the level of pressure he has to deal with? The other player who has equal or bigger impact is Jokic but he is penalized by the team record. KD and Giannis are looking good on paper but the impact is just not on the same level, e.g. Jrue is your on/off leader for most of the game says a lot. Just look at the record, it tells everything you need to know really.

Lastly lets conclude with his insane on/off
ON: 71 Win pace
OFF: 26 Win pace


Warriors have a good record because they have the best defense on the league and around 10 productive players that have been largely available. It's not all Curry gravity as you tell us. Curry carries in large part the offense but this is true for most players that are in the running for the MVP. ON/OFF is the most context based stat in the game. What about other metrics? What do you say about the fact that Curry has about 10 PER less than Giannis?


Warriors have 10 productive players because they all get wide open shots all game long due to Curry’s gravity. Watch. The. Games.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#939 » by kuclas » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:26 am

Big J wrote:
MaNs wrote:
cpower wrote:you missed the key aspect the analysis.. why do you think the Warriors is having the best record of the game so far without Klay? It's Steph, he is our offense. Yes his shooting has not been otherworldly but his on/off has always been amazing and led the team to beat some of the tougher components like Nets, Mem, Suns and Jazz...Not to mention he had to operate most of the time with 3 bad shooters on the court in Dray, Looney and Poole (33% on three). Can you imagine the level of pressure he has to deal with? The other player who has equal or bigger impact is Jokic but he is penalized by the team record. KD and Giannis are looking good on paper but the impact is just not on the same level, e.g. Jrue is your on/off leader for most of the game says a lot. Just look at the record, it tells everything you need to know really.

Lastly lets conclude with his insane on/off
ON: 71 Win pace
OFF: 26 Win pace


Warriors have a good record because they have the best defense on the league and around 10 productive players that have been largely available. It's not all Curry gravity as you tell us. Curry carries in large part the offense but this is true for most players that are in the running for the MVP. ON/OFF is the most context based stat in the game. What about other metrics? What do you say about the fact that Curry has about 10 PER less than Giannis?


Warriors have 10 productive players because they all get wide open shots all game long due to Curry’s gravity. Watch. The. Games.

If you look the top 4 teams. They have likely least games missed due to Covid or injuries. Any one have that data?
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Re: 2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1) 

Post#940 » by MaNs » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:26 am

SpreeS wrote:
mediocrityrules wrote:
MindState wrote:Cant see Giannis being near the top of this race if the Bucks continue to dissapoint record wise.

If hes gonna win his 3rd MVP and ovecome voter fatigue, hes going to have to impress mightily during the regular season. A 26-17 record and 4th place in the east just isnt cutting it.


I think that winning the 'chip got rid of any voter fatigue around Giannis. If Bucks didn't win i don't think he'd ever win another MVP without a championship.

Bucks record will change when Jrue is back in the line-up (getting the coach back will also help markedly). Lack of ball handlers has killed the Bucks as much as anything, and just such inconsistency in the line-up, you can see plays and schemes not being executed as they should be. No team has put more 5 man combo's on the floor this season than the Bucks, but as they don't ever get much attention in the media or even on this forum, it tends to go unnoticed. People just look at record without the context.
.

All 5 TOP teams in the East had the same injuries/Covid issues and Bucks is the 4th in standings. PHI with one more win will catch them too.

Derozan 25-9
Embiid 20-8
KD 22-11
Giannis 22-12

I could forget DEN records due injuries playing against way healthier the West teams, but MIL record is a problem.
This is factually incorrect. Milwaukee has had more trouble with injuries/covid than all teams of the East. Right now for example they are missing 6 out of 9 of their rotation players including their whole back-court (both pgs and both sgs are out). The record can become a problem if this situation continues but I don't see any better candidates in the moment. I agree though that Embiid if he keeps it up can become a strong candidate.

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