RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[Homer38]

I did say hitherto, now looking like he is still of that calibre with a chance to contend but basically prior to recent weeks in this season his teams weren’t in genuine contention, he wasn’t playing much defense, and he seemed to some to be pursuing stats, particularly offensive stats as an end in themselves.

This is not fair to ask a 38-40 years old player to carry a average team as if he was in his peak....They were still 31-19 this year before the first game of Luka....They were of course not a title contender without Luka but it was still better that the warriors without Butler this season but it did not mean that Curry was playing just for the stats...Same for LeBron

No one was claiming Curry’s current play was raising his stature against greats of the game though, so false equivalence there, since the argument in regard to LeBron’s play over the age of 35 had put him past Jordan. The Luka and Butler trades actually were similar in their effects, if not to the same degree, many Curry/GSW fans thought he was significantly past his peak and not trying as hard on offense as in his heyday. I am sure he would like the 3 point record but don’t think he was stats chasing,. When he did actively chase the 3 point record a while back he looked a different and worse player temporarily. I don’t think he has been a stats chaser in general over his career cf all the half court heaves on the buzzer.

we can said the same for LBJ.He had a very good underrated year last year and his FGA,etc were among the lowest of his career.Same for this year,the difference,the team is better now with Luka

[Special_Puppy]

Peak season stats

https://www.reddit.com/r/NBATalk/comments/1gzv97b/peak_stats_comparison_between_mj_and_lebron/

And none of this takes into account the crazy triple double stat inflation. In the 80s, 90s, the triple double leader typically had less than 10 in the entire season. Even Magic peaked at 17 in a season.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/trp_dbl_yearly.html

If these comparisons took era/stat inflation into account, Jordan would absolutely slaughter Lebron.
No way does a guy with 1 scoring title average 30 in the 90s, especially given how limited as a scorer he is compared to Jordan.
It was a big man's game and not a perimeter player cakewalk.

The argument that Jordan had a higher peak than LeBron is quite strong. The central question of the debate is whether that is enough to overcome LeBron's gargantuan longevity advantage

[michaelm]

Peak season stats

https://www.reddit.com/r/NBATalk/comments/1gzv97b/peak_stats_comparison_between_mj_and_lebron/

And none of this takes into account the crazy triple double stat inflation. In the 80s, 90s, the triple double leader typically had less than 10 in the entire season. Even Magic peaked at 17 in a season.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/trp_dbl_yearly.html

If these comparisons took era/stat inflation into account, Jordan would absolutely slaughter Lebron.
No way does a guy with 1 scoring title average 30 in the 90s, especially given how limited as a scorer he is compared to Jordan.
It was a big man's game and not a perimeter player cakewalk.

I could make an argument that 2016-2018 LeBron was better that Jordan from 1991-1993 come playoffs time....Only difference,the Bulls did not face a all-time great teams in the finals in those years and Jordan did not had a trash team in none of those years like LeBron had in 2018.And it was not the peak for LeBron

All manner of selective arguments can be made. I could ask you what more you think Jordan could/should have done given he led his team to threepeat as FMVP in those seasons. You also appear to regard the quality of the teams as independent of Jordan and LeBron which I don’t.

[Homer38]

Peak season stats

https://www.reddit.com/r/NBATalk/comments/1gzv97b/peak_stats_comparison_between_mj_and_lebron/

And none of this takes into account the crazy triple double stat inflation. In the 80s, 90s, the triple double leader typically had less than 10 in the entire season. Even Magic peaked at 17 in a season.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/trp_dbl_yearly.html

If these comparisons took era/stat inflation into account, Jordan would absolutely slaughter Lebron.
No way does a guy with 1 scoring title average 30 in the 90s, especially given how limited as a scorer he is compared to Jordan.
It was a big man's game and not a perimeter player cakewalk.

I could make an argument that 2016-2018 LeBron was better that Jordan from 1991-1993 come playoffs time....Only difference,the Bulls did not face a all-time great teams in the finals in those years and Jordan did not had a trash team in none of those years like LeBron had in 2018.And it was not the peak for LeBron

All manner of selective arguments can be made. I could ask you what more you think Jordan could/should have done given he led his team to threepeat as FMVP in those seasons. You also appear to regard the quality of the teams as independent of Jordan and LeBron which I don’t.

Not much more...same for LeBron in those years

[michaelm]

This is not fair to ask a 38-40 years old player to carry a average team as if he was in his peak....They were still 31-19 this year before the first game of Luka....They were of course not a title contender without Luka but it was still better that the warriors without Butler this season but it did not mean that Curry was playing just for the stats...Same for LeBron

No one was claiming Curry’s current play was raising his stature against greats of the game though, so false equivalence there, since the argument in regard to LeBron’s play over the age of 35 had put him past Jordan. The Luka and Butler trades actually were similar in their effects, if not to the same degree, many Curry/GSW fans thought he was significantly past his peak and not trying as hard on offense as in his heyday. I am sure he would like the 3 point record but don’t think he was stats chasing,. When he did actively chase the 3 point record a while back he looked a different and worse player temporarily. I don’t think he has been a stats chaser in general over his career cf all the half court heaves on the buzzer.

we can said the same for LBJ.He had a very good underrated year last year and his FGA,etc were among the lowest of his career.Same for this year,the difference,the team is better now with Luka

Again, no one is saying Curry’s play in the last 2 seasons has elevated his stature against any top 10 player let alone top 3.

[michaelm]

Peak season stats

https://www.reddit.com/r/NBATalk/comments/1gzv97b/peak_stats_comparison_between_mj_and_lebron/

And none of this takes into account the crazy triple double stat inflation. In the 80s, 90s, the triple double leader typically had less than 10 in the entire season. Even Magic peaked at 17 in a season.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/trp_dbl_yearly.html

If these comparisons took era/stat inflation into account, Jordan would absolutely slaughter Lebron.
No way does a guy with 1 scoring title average 30 in the 90s, especially given how limited as a scorer he is compared to Jordan.
It was a big man's game and not a perimeter player cakewalk.

The argument that Jordan had a higher peak than LeBron is quite strong. The central question of the debate is whether that is enough to overcome LeBron's gargantuan longevity advantage

How pray tell can he have a gargantuan longevity advantage over a player who won 4 titles as FMVP past the age of 30, the last 3 consecutively concluding at age 35, including the best season ever by any team, without even seriously contending past the age of 35 himself at least up until the Luka trade ?.

[Homer38]

No one was claiming Curry’s current play was raising his stature against greats of the game though, so false equivalence there, since the argument in regard to LeBron’s play over the age of 35 had put him past Jordan. The Luka and Butler trades actually were similar in their effects, if not to the same degree, many Curry/GSW fans thought he was significantly past his peak and not trying as hard on offense as in his heyday. I am sure he would like the 3 point record but don’t think he was stats chasing,. When he did actively chase the 3 point record a while back he looked a different and worse player temporarily. I don’t think he has been a stats chaser in general over his career cf all the half court heaves on the buzzer.

we can said the same for LBJ.He had a very good underrated year last year and his FGA,etc were among the lowest of his career.Same for this year,the difference,the team is better now with Luka

Again, no one is saying Curry’s play in the last 2 seasons has elevated his stature against any top 10 player let alone top 3.

True and nobody think that LeBron is at least top 4 of all-time because of the last 2 years only too....But of course if LeBron or Curry won a ring and their play is a huge reason why,it will only adds to their legacy

I don't understand why longevity is seen as a negative or just to inflate stats for some, especially when that player is still a great player....We can make an argument that LeBron was a top 10 player in the 2024 season, same for this year, which is amazing for his age

When you have an all-time prime, longevity and peak, it's always positive but LeBron's peak is so underrated at this point (even if he won 4 MVPs in 5 years at one point) because of his great longevity....LeBron is a top 5 of all-time since the 2016 finals.It takes very special criteria to not put him in this category

[Homer38]

Peak season stats

https://www.reddit.com/r/NBATalk/comments/1gzv97b/peak_stats_comparison_between_mj_and_lebron/

And none of this takes into account the crazy triple double stat inflation. In the 80s, 90s, the triple double leader typically had less than 10 in the entire season. Even Magic peaked at 17 in a season.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/trp_dbl_yearly.html

If these comparisons took era/stat inflation into account, Jordan would absolutely slaughter Lebron.
No way does a guy with 1 scoring title average 30 in the 90s, especially given how limited as a scorer he is compared to Jordan.
It was a big man's game and not a perimeter player cakewalk.

The argument that Jordan had a higher peak than LeBron is quite strong. The central question of the debate is whether that is enough to overcome LeBron's gargantuan longevity advantage

How pray tell can he have a gargantuan longevity advantage over a player who won 4 titles as FMVP past the age of 30, the last 3 consecutively including the best season ever by any team concluding at age 35, without even seriously contending past the age of 35 himself at least up until the Luka trade ?.

Please,LeBron from the 2016 to 2018 period was much better that Jordan from the 1996 to 1998 period especially in the playoffs.....The only difference, he didn't play against an all-time great team like the Warriors since in the 1990s, he didn't have a powerhouse like the Lakers, Celtics and even the Pistons in the 1980s...2020 LeBron was better that the version of 1998 Jordan but I admit the competition for the lakers was weak a bit come playoffs time

[Ainosterhaspie]

The stats are also ****ing wrong. Idk why Jordan fans keep fabricating stats. It’s weird and needs to stop.

You also might be misreading it as it's deceptive. It says "after turning 40", not the bball reference season for 40 years old.

It's oddly cherry picked just like Lebron fan posts of "first 13 seasons in the playoffs, wins" and that sort of garbage.

I mean if you guys are completely okay fabricating stats more power to you, but in the real world that’s insulting and completely dishonest not just to LBJ but MJ as well. Liars like the OG poster of that tweet will get called out every time. Integrity should still matter in this day and age, despite clowns running the circus elsewhere.

He just called 13 seasons cherry picked. 13 seasons. Unreal.

[Special_Puppy]

Peak season stats

https://www.reddit.com/r/NBATalk/comments/1gzv97b/peak_stats_comparison_between_mj_and_lebron/

And none of this takes into account the crazy triple double stat inflation. In the 80s, 90s, the triple double leader typically had less than 10 in the entire season. Even Magic peaked at 17 in a season.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/trp_dbl_yearly.html

If these comparisons took era/stat inflation into account, Jordan would absolutely slaughter Lebron.
No way does a guy with 1 scoring title average 30 in the 90s, especially given how limited as a scorer he is compared to Jordan.
It was a big man's game and not a perimeter player cakewalk.

The argument that Jordan had a higher peak than LeBron is quite strong. The central question of the debate is whether that is enough to overcome LeBron's gargantuan longevity advantage

How pray tell can he have a gargantuan longevity advantage over a player who won 4 titles as FMVP past the age of 30, the last 3 consecutively concluding at age 35, including the best season ever by any team, without even seriously contending past the age of 35 himself at least up until the Luka trade ?.

Because LeBron has played ~45% more minutes than Jordan at this point. Obviously quality matters. Jordan's wizards years and LeBron's rookie year don't move the needle much. I'd also say value isn't linear. 1 10 WAR season increases a teams title odds more than 2 5 WAR seasons. Still, LeBron is likely to have the advantage most of the time in a CORP like framework given the 45% minutes advantage.

[michaelm]

I

we can said the same for LBJ.He had a very good underrated year last year and his FGA,etc were among the lowest of his career.Same for this year,the difference,the team is better now with Luka

Again, no one is saying Curry’s play in the last 2 seasons has elevated his stature against any top 10 player let alone top 3.

True and nobody think that LeBron is at least top 4 of all-time because of the last 2 years only too....But of course if LeBron or Curry won a ring and their play is a huge reason why,it will only adds to their legacy

I don't understand why longevity is seen as a negative or just to inflate stats for some, especially when that player is still a great player....We can make an argument that LeBron was a top 10 player in the 2024 season, same for this year, which is amazing for his age

When you have an all-time prime, longevity and peak, it's always positive but LeBron's peak is so underrated at this point (even if he won 4 MVPs in 5 years at one point) because of his great longevity....LeBron is a top 5 of all-time since the 2016 finals.It takes very special criteria to not put him in this category

Don’t disagree, and didn’t mean to imply LeBron was not top 3 himself, just that Curry is not chasing Jordan but rather being compared with players just inside or outside most people’s top 10. Both he and particularly LeBron can only enhance their stature by further achievements rather than diminish same at this stage in their careers.

LeBron as he is playing recently looks like erasing a caveat I had on him, that his teams have almost exclusively played heliocentric basketball. It would seem he just needed to have a team-mate like Luka, not that the supply of such players is strong. He also looks to have a chance of a further title or titles with a revamped team at the same franchise, something Jordan and for that matter Curry have done previously but he hasn’t.

[michaelm]

The argument that Jordan had a higher peak than LeBron is quite strong. The central question of the debate is whether that is enough to overcome LeBron's gargantuan longevity advantage

How pray tell can he have a gargantuan longevity advantage over a player who won 4 titles as FMVP past the age of 30, the last 3 consecutively including the best season ever by any team concluding at age 35, without even seriously contending past the age of 35 himself at least up until the Luka trade ?.

Please,LeBron from the 2016 to 2018 period was much better that Jordan from the 1996 to 1998 period especially in the playoffs.....The only difference, he didn't play against an all-time great team like the Warriors since in the 1990s, he didn't have a powerhouse like the Lakers, Celtics and even the Pistons in the 1980s...2020 LeBron was better that the version of 1998 Jordan but I admit the competition for the lakers was weak a bit come playoffs time

All hypothetical, Jordan couldn’t have done more than he did in those years, the 1998 team did have the best season of all time, he every definitely was the best player and drove those teams as FMVP and did this at the ages of 33, 34 and 35 as I said. If you want to put caveats on titles which I don’t it has been argued LeBron and AD may have been aided by the shortened season/bubble play-offs in 2020. At least you appear to acknowledge that he did not beat the best team of all time in 2016, if any GSW team was that it was the 2017 team which he obviously couldn’t beat. The unfair KD/Curry team stuff has always been nonsense, it was two top 5 players joining up which LeBron may be doing now given assessments by you guys of his current quality, has done previously with AD, and which was his intention when he joined up with Wade. GSW already had a very well constructed team around Curry, which is exactly what a team should do if they can, including deciding not to trade Klay Thompson for Kevin Love.

[michaelm]

This is not fair to ask a 38-40 years old player to carry a average team as if he was in his peak....They were still 31-19 this year before the first game of Luka....They were of course not a title contender without Luka but it was still better that the warriors without Butler this season but it did not mean that Curry was playing just for the stats...Same for LeBron

No one was claiming Curry’s current play was raising his stature against greats of the game though, so false equivalence there, since the argument in regard to LeBron’s play over the age of 35 had put him past Jordan. The Luka and Butler trades actually were similar in their effects, if not to the same degree, many Curry/GSW fans thought he was significantly past his peak and not trying as hard on offense as in his heyday. I am sure he would like the 3 point record but don’t think he was stats chasing,. When he did actively chase the 3 point record a while back he looked a different and worse player temporarily. I don’t think he has been a stats chaser in general over his career cf all the half court heaves on the buzzer.

we can said the same for LBJ.He had a very good underrated year last year and his FGA,etc were among the lowest of his career.Same for this year,the difference,the team is better now with Luka

I meant to say Curry wasn’t trying as hard on defense, and that he probably wants to extend his leading 3 point shots made record to 3,000.

[Himothy Duncan]

Player A: Retires twice in 13 years. Get’s labeled the greatest competitor ever.

Player B: Plays 22 years, the latter years while being a billionaire. Get’s labeled as someone who doesn’t like competition.

Just looking for answers. Thanks in advance.

[JustBuzzin]

LeBron GOAT
MJ Baby GOAT

[zimpy27]

I guess it is 2 schools of thought.


The guy that goes so hard that they are too exhausted to do another season is the ultimate competitor and the guy that can reprepare for another season is just a sign that they didn't work to their absolute maximum in the previous season.

OR

The guy that can reprepare for another season better than anyone ever is the ultimate competitor and the guy that has to take seasons off to mentally prepare is not.

[zimpy27]

Maybe it's a sign that Jordan is the single season GOAT and LeBron is the career GOAT

[azcatz11]

Player A: Retires twice in 13 years. Get’s labeled the greatest competitor ever.

Player B: Plays 22 years, the latter years while being a billionaire. Get’s labeled as someone who doesn’t like competition.

Just looking for answers. Thanks in advance.

I mean - context? Retires to play a different sport? It’s not like he was out there chugging beers

[Himothy Duncan]

Player A: Retires twice in 13 years. Get’s labeled the greatest competitor ever.

Player B: Plays 22 years, the latter years while being a billionaire. Get’s labeled as someone who doesn’t like competition.

Just looking for answers. Thanks in advance.

I mean - context? Retires to play a different sport? It’s not like he was out there chugging beers

But you’re leaving to play something else at a lower level. The pressure of the bright lights is gone, there’s zero expectation to win. Zero expectation to fight the up and coming teams and players.

[Boneman2]

6 for 6 v/s 3 for 9

Asterisk on the Bubble Chip