MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened

[ArtMorte]

Giannis and then everyone else

Kawhi sucks and LeBron plays with another top5 player

weak year for MVPs.

How is it a weak year for MVPs when there's currently three guys averaging +30ppg?

[Colbinii]

Food for thought:
- The Sixers allowed 107 or less points in regulation 15 of 19 games this season; Embiid played in all of them.
- The Sixers allowed 111+ points in regulation the other 4 games; Embiid didn't play in any of them.

Opp average with Embiid: 98.9pts/regulation
Opp average without Embiid: 116.3pts/regulation

I say "regulation" because the OT game against OKC fudged the results.

That is because of a 4 game sample size.

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[Colbinii]

Giannis and then everyone else

Kawhi sucks and LeBron plays with another top5 player

weak year for MVPs.

How is it a weak year for MVPs when there's currently three guys averaging +30ppg?

We as humans enjoy not thinking and making emotionally-charged comments.

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[clyde21]

Giannis and then everyone else

Kawhi sucks and LeBron plays with another top5 player

weak year for MVPs.

How is it a weak year for MVPs when there's currently three guys averaging +30ppg?

throw box scores out the window in today's NBA, completely useless.

[Michael Lucky]

Giannis and then everyone else

Kawhi sucks and LeBron plays with another top5 player

weak year for MVPs.

How is it a weak year for MVPs when there's currently three guys averaging +30ppg?

throw box scores out the window in today's NBA, completely useless.

that narrative is BS when you consider the pace has led to players playing far less minutes a game than just 5 to 10 years ago.

[jokeboy86]

Yet its extremely close and its Lebron

#1 seed in the WEST
Higher Net Rating than Giannis (so there is your value)
Has the MVP Narrative: Been 7 years since he has gotten 1, 17th year, LAL market/media, Comeback Year
Giannis shooting under 60% from ft line and under 30% from 3s doesn't help his case.

His jumper just isn't there yet and in the playoffs it will be an issue AGAIN. Smart defensive teams with the personal will take what they learned from the raptors plan.

Lakers have the personal. Sixers have the personal. Clippers have the personal if Zubac continues to defend the rim. Boston if they get a C has the personal.

Giannis is playing much better than Lebron. This whole narrative business is ridiculous. Giannis got the wins and a huge statistical edge. This would go down as one of the bigger robberies (and some commentators have already said they think Lebron's the MVP, which is insane)

Where is the robbery part?

Numbers say Lebron is more VALUABLE atm. His net rating is higher. AD w/o lebron posts a NEGATIVE net rating of over 5.

Lebron is playing with castaways like Rondo, KCP, Mcgee, and Dwight all getting real minutes. Giannis doesn't have someone as good as AD, but they have a ton of depth. Middleton is an all star in the east and Bledsoe is a good player (if he doesn't **** himself come playoffs). Tons of shooters and versatile wings.

Lebron has been robbed multiple times imo

And if the award is about the best player in the league (who isn't load managing), then why would it be Giannis with his flaws that will be exposed come playoffs?

Playing in the west means you don't get a ton of those crappy east teams at the bottom to just cruise through.

This won't come into play but I saw this:

The Milwaukee Bucks have faced the Heat without Jimmy Butler, the Wolves without Karl Anthony Towns, the Clippers without Paul George or Kawhi Leonard, the Jazz without Rudy Gobert, the Pistons without Griffin, and the Blazers without Damian Lillard.

All In less than 20 games, talk about good fortune

I would be with you and anybody else who defends Lebron but everybody keeps conveniently forgetting that Lebron plays with Anthony Davis who is arguably a top 5 player in the league(oh who happens to be 5th in PER). And you can't bring up Giannis should be penalized for playing in a weak East when Lebron was getting MVPs in an Eastern Conference that the majority of the time was only 2 deep contender-wise(maybe 3 some years). I'm also not understanding the logic of bringing up Giannis's playoff perfomances or potential playoff performances when its a regular season award. And can we all be clear and honest, no one and I mean no one is taking Middleton over several other teams 2nd best player so please stop bringing up the all-star appearance. If you have one of the top 2 seeds in the conference the coaches do that by default to reward winning. A lot of the time that has nothing to do with a player's actual league ranking.

Now if the Lakers win some godly amount of games(like 66 or higher) than I agree you have to give it to Lebron. But if the Bucks get the top record in the league again, Giannis is running away with it. I actually do think Lebron is a better player than Giannis but that has never been what the MVP award is about. This isn't MLB.

[Homer38]

Giannis and then everyone else

Kawhi sucks and LeBron plays with another top5 player

weak year for MVPs.

How is it a weak year for MVPs when there's currently three guys averaging +30ppg?

throw box scores out the window in today's NBA, completely useless.

The stats are inflating in the NBA but I do not think it's a weak year for the MVP....Giannis, LBJ, Luka and Harden have all a MVP caliber season right now.

[Homer38]

Giannis is playing much better than Lebron. This whole narrative business is ridiculous. Giannis got the wins and a huge statistical edge. This would go down as one of the bigger robberies (and some commentators have already said they think Lebron's the MVP, which is insane)

Where is the robbery part?

Numbers say Lebron is more VALUABLE atm. His net rating is higher. AD w/o lebron posts a NEGATIVE net rating of over 5.

Lebron is playing with castaways like Rondo, KCP, Mcgee, and Dwight all getting real minutes. Giannis doesn't have someone as good as AD, but they have a ton of depth. Middleton is an all star in the east and Bledsoe is a good player (if he doesn't **** himself come playoffs). Tons of shooters and versatile wings.

Lebron has been robbed multiple times imo

And if the award is about the best player in the league (who isn't load managing), then why would it be Giannis with his flaws that will be exposed come playoffs?

Playing in the west means you don't get a ton of those crappy east teams at the bottom to just cruise through.

This won't come into play but I saw this:

The Milwaukee Bucks have faced the Heat without Jimmy Butler, the Wolves without Karl Anthony Towns, the Clippers without Paul George or Kawhi Leonard, the Jazz without Rudy Gobert, the Pistons without Griffin, and the Blazers without Damian Lillard.

All In less than 20 games, talk about good fortune

I would be with you and anybody else who defends Lebron but everybody keeps conveniently forgetting that Lebron plays with Anthony Davis who is arguably a top 5 player in the league(oh who happens to be 5th in PER). And you can't bring up Giannis should be penalized for playing in a weak East when Lebron was getting MVPs in an Eastern Conference that the majority of the time was only 2 deep contender-wise(maybe 3 some years). I'm also not understanding the logic of bringing up Giannis's playoff perfomances or potential playoff performances when its a regular season award. And can we all be clear and honest, no one and I mean no one is taking Middleton over several other teams 2nd best player so please stop bringing up the all-star appearance. If you have one of the top 2 seeds in the conference the coaches do that by default to reward winning. A lot of the time that has nothing to do with a player's actual league ranking.

Now if the Lakers win some godly amount of games(like 66 or higher) than I agree you have to give it to Lebron. But if the Bucks get the top record in the league again, Giannis is running away with it. I actually do think Lebron is a better player than Giannis but that has never been what the MVP award is about. This isn't MLB.

Giannis is my pick for the MVP right now but yes LeBron play with Davis but we need to look at the rest of the roster...If the Lakers won over 60 games,LeBron will be a strong candidat.

[TroubleS0me]

Giannis
LBJ
Luka
Harden

in order so far. LBJ might get it because of the best player on the best team case if the Lakers finish the reason #1 team overall

Honorable mentions :Bam Adebayo, KAT

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Kawhi still has as good of a case for MVP as LeBron in my opinion and that was my point yesterday. However, its been a process to adapt to the idiot Beverly as point guard and Kawhi's numbers are taking a hit because of it.

I have to give MVP to Luka right now. 30/10/10 with a 14 BPM and leading a 117 rated offense with a bunch of shitheads.

[Joey Wheeler]

Lebron and Davis playing together isn't really an argument for Giannis here. Both are overall superior players to Giannis, with less exploitable weaknesses come playoff time. If Giannis had AD on his team, he'd not be the best player on hsi team so the whole argument is a non-starter.

[Yuri36]

Lebron and Davis playing together isn't really an argument for Giannis here. Both are overall superior players to Giannis, with less exploitable weaknesses come playoff time. If Giannis had AD on his team, he'd not be the best player on hsi team so the whole argument is a non-starter.

Loool how so??

[Joey Wheeler]

Lebron and Davis playing together isn't really an argument for Giannis here. Both are overall superior players to Giannis, with less exploitable weaknesses come playoff time. If Giannis had AD on his team, he'd not be the best player on hsi team so the whole argument is a non-starter.

Loool how so??

AD is better on both sides of the ball. Defensively it's pretty clear, doubt anyone would argue it (as good as Giannis himself is) and his offensive game is more resilient and less exploitable against tough playoff defenses.

Giannis is putting up huge RS statlines, but he's not even better at that, we've seen in his years at New Orleans that AD is the kind of crazy statlines if he puts his mind to it.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Food for thought:
- The Sixers allowed 107 or less points in regulation 15 of 19 games this season; Embiid played in all of them.
- The Sixers allowed 111+ points in regulation the other 4 games; Embiid didn't play in any of them.

Opp average with Embiid: 98.9pts/regulation
Opp average without Embiid: 116.3pts/regulation

I say "regulation" because the OT game against OKC fudged the results.

That is because of a 4 game sample size.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

You could say that if I just posted the averages, but sample size doesn’t account for the first part. It’s extremely unlikely that all 15 defensive performances with Embiid would trump all 4 without him.

That defensive impact is why he put up double digit positive on/offs every season, why he’s never been outscored on the court during a playoff series, and why the Sixers were triple digit positive with him in the playoffs last year compared to triple digit negative without him. It wasn’t a lineup thing because no other Sixer was even close. Not Butler, not anyone. It was an Embiid thing. +89 against the Champs in a series where he shot well below his averages. We’ve yet to see any stretch in his career when his impact wasn’t glaring (when healthy).

[Sulico]

Lebron and Davis playing together isn't really an argument for Giannis here. Both are overall superior players to Giannis, with less exploitable weaknesses come playoff time. If Giannis had AD on his team, he'd not be the best player on hsi team so the whole argument is a non-starter.

Loool how so??

AD is better on both sides of the ball. Defensively it's pretty clear, doubt anyone would argue it (as good as Giannis himself is) and his offensive game is more resilient and less exploitable against tough playoff defenses.

Giannis is putting up huge RS statlines, but he's not even better at that, we've seen in his years at New Orleans that AD is the kind of crazy statlines if he puts his mind to it.

Any metrics known to men, and we have plenty in this age of analytics, puts Giannis ahead of AD both offensively and defensively by a big margin.
Care to explain how you came to that conlusion? Gut feeling? And how on earth did you assume that noone would argue your subjective opinion when it's totally contradicted by any stats available?

[GeorgeMarcus]

Lebron and Davis playing together isn't really an argument for Giannis here. Both are overall superior players to Giannis, with less exploitable weaknesses come playoff time. If Giannis had AD on his team, he'd not be the best player on hsi team so the whole argument is a non-starter.

Giannis is comfortably better than AD, and probably better than LeBron too.

[yoyoboy]

The Bucks’ 18th ranked strength of schedule - and hence their SRS as well - is definitely misleading right now. They’ve played a bunch of teams without its best and sometimes second best player.

Heat: No Jimmy Butler
Wolves: No Karl-Anthony Towns
Clippers: No Paul George or Kawhi Leonard
Jazz: No Rudy Gobert
Pacers: No Malcolm Brogdon
Pistons: No Blake Griffin
Blazers: No Damian Lillard or Hassan Whiteside

That’s 7 of their 18 matchups which makes a huge impact considering the sample size. You can even throw in Steven Adams missing the Bucks’ game against OKC.

Also for people making it seem like Giannis is playing with trash:

2019 RPM for Bucks/Lakers who have played >100 MP:
1. Anthony Davis: +5.74 (LAL)
2. Danny Green: +4.73 (LAL)
3. Brook Lopez: +4.07 (MIL)
4. Eric Bledsoe: +3.77 (MIL)
5. George Hill: +2.04 (MIL)
6. Khris Middleton: +1.89 (MIL)
7. Ersan Ilyasova: +1.39 (MIL)
8. Pat Connaughton: +0.10 (MIL)
9. Alex Caruso: +0.06 (LAL)
10. Kyle Kuzma: +0.01 (LAL)
11. Wesley Matthews: -0.05 (MIL)
12. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope: -0.77 (LAL)
13. Dwight Howard: -0.87 (LAL)
14. Kyle Korver: -1.03 (MIL)
15. Robin Lopez: -1.61 (MIL)
16. Donte DiVincenzo: -1.70 (MIL)
17. Troy Daniels: -2.20 (LAL)
18. JaVale McGee: -2.33 (LAL)
19. Sterling Brown: -2.38 (MIL)
20. Avery Bradley: -3.44 (LAL)
21. Rajon Rondo: -3.56 (LAL)
22. Quinn Cook: -4.03 (LAL)

Depth like that goes a long way. The Bucks hardly play any guys who aren’t at the very least decent. 5 of the 6 worst guys in RPM between the two teams belong to the Lakers. While the top 2 in the metric belong to the Lakers, Milwaukee has the next 6.

Again, having Giannis as the current MVP leader is reasonable. The issue is the same terrible arguments for his case where only the 2nd best players on their teams are compared or their SRS/opposing competition are brought up without the somewhat important context mentioned above. And while you can definitely say Giannis has the box score edge compared to LeBron:

Giannis: 12.2 BPM / .285 WS/48 / 32.9 PER / 8.36 PIPM
LeBron: 9.5 BPM / .252 WS/48 / 27.8 PER / 5.84 PIPM

LeBron has the impact metrics edge:

Giannis: +13.3 Net Rating / +11.8 On-Off / +9.2 RAPTOR / +1.12 in RAPM (14th)
LeBron: +13.5 Net Rating / +15.2 On-Off / +9.5 RAPTOR / +1.99 in RAPM (1st)

LeBron is actually the only one on the Lakers who has a negative off-court, meaning the Lakers’ get outscored when he’s on the bench.

James: -1.7 off the court
Howard: +7.5
Green: +7.9
Cook: +8.0
Caruso: +8.1
Kostas: +9.1
Rondo: +9.4
Norvell: +9.4
McGee: +9.5
Caldwell-Pope: +9.7
Bradley: +9.8
Kuzma: +10.5
Dudley: +11.3
Daniels: +11.8
Davis: +12.1

Finally roster and coaching continuity is another thing that doesn’t get taken into account but makes a difference. It’s easier for you team to perform well in the regular season when 9 of your top 10 guys in minutes played this year were on the roster last year (in the Bucks’ case) and you’re bringing back your same 2019 Coach of the Year winner. Compared to the Lakers where 4 out of the top 10 guys in minutes played were on the roster last year and they’ve got a new coach with a new system.

So I really don’t think it’s as clear cut and “NoT eVeN cLoSe” as a bunch of you guys make it seem. This is still very much a tight competition, and if I wasn’t too lazy I would’ve thrown in Luka and Harden for comparison, too. But I’d probably have my current rankings as:

1a. Giannis/LeBron
1b. LeBron/Giannis
(really can’t decide right now, it’s that close to me)
3. Doncic
4. Harden
5. Siakam

[mademan]

Forget base stats and Giannis being completely better than Lebron by every metric known to man. Net rating is what matters

Pascal siakam is +13.3 on court and the team is -5.7 when he's off the court for a total of +19 for a top 3 team in the league. Siakam should be ahead of everyone

[Joey Wheeler]

Lebron and Davis playing together isn't really an argument for Giannis here. Both are overall superior players to Giannis, with less exploitable weaknesses come playoff time. If Giannis had AD on his team, he'd not be the best player on hsi team so the whole argument is a non-starter.

Giannis is comfortably better than AD, and probably better than LeBron too.

I have a feeling that post will age terribly come May 2020. AD is better on both ends, it's he who's comfortably better; Lebron is massively better on offense.

Loool how so??

AD is better on both sides of the ball. Defensively it's pretty clear, doubt anyone would argue it (as good as Giannis himself is) and his offensive game is more resilient and less exploitable against tough playoff defenses.

Giannis is putting up huge RS statlines, but he's not even better at that, we've seen in his years at New Orleans that AD is the kind of crazy statlines if he puts his mind to it.

Any metrics known to men, and we have plenty in this age of analytics, puts Giannis ahead of AD both offensively and defensively by a big margin.
Care to explain how you came to that conlusion? Gut feeling? And how on earth did you assume that noone would argue your subjective opinion when it's totally contradicted by any stats available?

Following the league/watching games? Especially having watched both of them in the playoffs, there's no doubt about whose game holds up better, Davis has playoff numbers that rival Jordan and Lebron (on much smaller sample size of course) having played 66% of his series against the dynasty Warriors, while Giannis was kinda exposed offensively last year.

[mademan]

Lebron and Davis playing together isn't really an argument for Giannis here. Both are overall superior players to Giannis, with less exploitable weaknesses come playoff time. If Giannis had AD on his team, he'd not be the best player on hsi team so the whole argument is a non-starter.

Giannis is comfortably better than AD, and probably better than LeBron too.

I have a feeling that post will age terribly come May 2020. AD is better on both ends, it's he who's comfortably better; Lebron is massively better on offense.

AD is better on both sides of the ball. Defensively it's pretty clear, doubt anyone would argue it (as good as Giannis himself is) and his offensive game is more resilient and less exploitable against tough playoff defenses.

Giannis is putting up huge RS statlines, but he's not even better at that, we've seen in his years at New Orleans that AD is the kind of crazy statlines if he puts his mind to it.

Any metrics known to men, and we have plenty in this age of analytics, puts Giannis ahead of AD both offensively and defensively by a big margin.
Care to explain how you came to that conlusion? Gut feeling? And how on earth did you assume that noone would argue your subjective opinion when it's totally contradicted by any stats available?

Following the league/watching games? Especially having watched both of them in the playoffs, there's no doubt about whose game holds up better, Davis has playoff numbers that rival Jordan and Lebron (on much smaller sample size of course) having played 66% of his series against the dynasty Warriors, while Giannis was kinda exposed offensively last year.

Davis couldnt even lead his team to the playoffs consistently. How do you even compare him to Giannis?