2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 3: Son of daughter of MVP thread)

[Infinite Llamas]

Jokic can’t create his own shot? How many close games have we seen where Jokic is given the ball in clutch situations and gets a bucket time and time again? He can back anyone down in the post.

When you need a bucket in clutch time, there isn’t a better option in the league than Jokic.

[falcolombardi]

They're a +4.5 without him

That only shows how portable shai is as a ceiling raiser. Raising a good team to goat level is a lot more impressive than taking a weak team to very good levels as we all know

Jokic is too heliocentric which makes his teammates struggle when they are not playing jokic ball and forget how to play without him (never forget jokic less nuggets have a better record than shai less nuggets since last season after all)

Is why jokic teams are high floor and low ceiling like they are, his defensive limitations make it hard to build a true elite team around him

just switch Jokic for SGA 1 v 1 and you have an elite team around him. They would have won the title last year and be repeating this year.

Is not impossible tbh, shai has taken a subtle but significant leap this year in most aspects of the game compared to 2024, and okc roster is well built for jokic by having chet holgrem which is a ideal interior partner for him

But i want to notice that a lot of the same issues denver suffered from against minnesota would have shown up with last year okc.

Giddey would still be ignored off ball and hunted defensively forcing okc ti rely on their not nearly as good as this year depth

Unexperienced jalen and chet would still have some first tine in playoffs issues, jalen performance offensively vs dallas would be so maligned or more as murray vs minnesota was.

Is entirely possible a 2024 jokic led okc losses to minnesota, dallas or boston and then people make similarly dismissive arguments about okc supporting cast as they did about denver admittedly flawed supporting cast

[Special_Puppy]

If you are saying OKC, MEM, Cleavland, Boston
Den is 2 - 2 vs Western teams and Jokic missed both games vs MEM
They lost all 3 to eastern teams but Jokic did not play vs Boston and had 2 triple doubles vs Clevland (27/20/11,27/14/13)
Those averages you are referencing are nonsense.

Cherry picking much?

The averages aren’t nonsense. They are cold hard facts lol. The top 4 in each conference… 7 teams in total (but yes he didn’t play against a couple of those teams yet). Fact is in 7 games against teams that are top 4 seeds in their conference, his assists drop, as does his ppg and efficiency (quite significantly).

So a 6 game sample where they played 3 different teams (also why aren’t you using top 10 defenses if you are focused on offensive stats). You guys are just mindlessly regurgitating an anti-Jokic stat you saw on Twitter by a guy who said OKC fans needed to slander Jokic more to “fight back”

[sikma42]

That only shows how portable shai is as a ceiling raiser. Raising a good team to goat level is a lot more impressive than taking a weak team to very good levels as we all know

Jokic is too heliocentric which makes his teammates struggle when they are not playing jokic ball and forget how to play without him (never forget jokic less nuggets have a better record than shai less nuggets since last season after all)

Is why jokic teams are high floor and low ceiling like they are, his defensive limitations make it hard to build a true elite team around him

just switch Jokic for SGA 1 v 1 and you have an elite team around him. They would have won the title last year and be repeating this year.

Is not impossible tbh, shai has taken a subtle but significant leap this year in most aspects of the game compared to 2024, and okc roster is well built for jokic by having chet holgrem which is a ideal interior partner for him

But i want to notice that a lot of the same issues denver suffered from against minnesota would have shown up with last year okc.

Giddey would still be ignored off ball and hunted defensively forcing okc ti rely on their not nearly as good as this year depth

Unexperienced jalen and chet would still have some first tine in playoffs issues, jalen performance offensively vs dallas would be so maligned or more as murray vs minnesota was.

Is entirely possible a 2024 jokic led okc losses to minnesota, dallas or boston and then people make similarly dismissive arguments about okc supporting cast as they did about denver admittedly flawed supporting cast

I'll just I disagree but thanks for laying out that argument. We'll just have to see it playout. Sure if Denver goes further than OKC this year, we can conclude that there is a meaningful gap between the two?

[MyTake_1]

If you are saying OKC, MEM, Cleavland, Boston
Den is 2 - 2 vs Western teams and Jokic missed both games vs MEM
They lost all 3 to eastern teams but Jokic did not play vs Boston and had 2 triple doubles vs Clevland (27/20/11,27/14/13)
Those averages you are referencing are nonsense.

Cherry picking much?

The averages aren’t nonsense. They are cold hard facts lol. The top 4 in each conference… 7 teams in total (but yes he didn’t play against a couple of those teams yet). Fact is in 7 games against teams that are top 4 seeds in their conference, his assists drop, as does his ppg and efficiency (quite significantly).

You are cherry-picking as I said before, it is only 6 games and 2 vs Knicks that were his worst stats for different reasons.
And even with that, your stats are nonsense, in these 6 games he averaged 11 assists. he averaged 22/13/11 which is a bad line only for Jokic.

[AleksandarN]

Jokic is better at filling a box score. Yet nothing shows either player is "way better". It just shows that they are in a league of their own together this year and that SGA will win MVP due to being an equal player with a way better record. I think we are seeing two of the top 5 all time seasons in the same year and you Jokic homers just literally can't fathom that both are legendary seasons in the same tier of greatness. SGA doesn't rebound or pass like Jokic..... but Jokic also is a horrible defender (among league worst paint defender) where as SGA is a great one.

EPM: SGA- 9.4
Jokic-8.8

WS/48: SGA- .323
Jokic- .335

Net rating: SGA-19
Jokic- 12.4

PIE rating NBA: SGA- 20.6
Jokic- 21.2

Jokic is not a horrible defender. You criticize others of being homers and then say something completely false about Jokic. Jokic is not a rim protector period but he is one of best at deflections , defensive rebounding and steals etc. he is not terrible on the defensive end of the ball.

Of course he's a good defensive rebounder, he's huge and strong and boxes out well. He rebounds shots to his area extremely well. He doesn't pursue/rebound outside his area very well though. As for the steals, deflections etc......this board has put down things like steals, blocks, deflections, not necessarily making a a guy a good defender for ever (think Allen Iverson, for example), yet that doesn't apply for Jokic?

The last point, as you acknowledge, he's a poor rim/help defender. What is the most important defensive quality for a center/player his size? It's rim protection and help defense.

Also, unrelated, his assists are inflated by how Denver runs their offense. It's just constant DHO or zoom action/cutters off of jokic at the top. He leads the NBA in passes per game by a wide margin and is second in potential assists per game. Of course he gets a lot of assists. He can really fill a box score and is extremely efficient shooting. In the playoffs though, I have and do question his ability to create his own shot and whether he can maintain that efficiency while doing so. It's why, imo, his teams have struggled vs good teams in playoff series, because superstars (which he obviously is) have to create their own shots in a long, competitive playoff series. A good team will take what you like doing away. Combine it with his poor rim protection and help inside (again, the most important defensive quality for a player his size) and it's fair to question if it's problematic against good teams in a playoff series. You questioned it last year immediately when they got down to Minnesota,
in shocking fashion! He'll have to win some of those to disprove it.

Watch on YouTube

[hardenASG13]

Also, unrelated, his assists are inflated by how Denver runs their offense. It's just constant DHO or zoom action/cutters off of jokic at the top. He leads the NBA in passes per game by a wide margin and is second in potential assists per game. Of course he gets a lot of assists. He can really fill a box score and is extremely efficient shooting. In the playoffs though, I have and do question his ability to create his own shot and whether he can maintain that efficiency while doing so. It's why, imo, his teams have struggled vs good teams in playoff series, because superstars (which he obviously is) have to create their own shots in a long, competitive playoff series. A good team will take what you like doing away. Combine it with his poor rim protection and help inside (again, the most important defensive quality for a player his size) and it's fair to question if it's problematic against good teams in a playoff series. You questioned it last year immediately when they got down to Minnesota, in shocking fashion! He'll have to win some of those to disprove it.

This is the most asinine take on Jokic yet, and that is saying something.

I bet you did not watch Minny series last year, you are talking nonsense, Jokic carried Nuggets he was the only one who showed up, look at the numbers from that series.

He can't create his own shots? You are an absolute idiot to say this, you are talking about a guy that does it better and more effectively than anybody in the league today. Countless takes on this have been around for 5 years from most great players coaches and commentators. And his assists are a question of being able to read game faster than anyone and exploit this to his team's benefit. That's greatness man.

Sorry to upset you, Nikola. I watched every game of the Minnesota series. When it was time to stop their 3rd quarter comeback in game 7, Jokic was passive. That turned out to be the most important stretch in that series.

[Special_Puppy]

Also, unrelated, his assists are inflated by how Denver runs their offense. It's just constant DHO or zoom action/cutters off of jokic at the top. He leads the NBA in passes per game by a wide margin and is second in potential assists per game. Of course he gets a lot of assists. He can really fill a box score and is extremely efficient shooting. In the playoffs though, I have and do question his ability to create his own shot and whether he can maintain that efficiency while doing so. It's why, imo, his teams have struggled vs good teams in playoff series, because superstars (which he obviously is) have to create their own shots in a long, competitive playoff series. A good team will take what you like doing away. Combine it with his poor rim protection and help inside (again, the most important defensive quality for a player his size) and it's fair to question if it's problematic against good teams in a playoff series. You questioned it last year immediately when they got down to Minnesota, in shocking fashion! He'll have to win some of those to disprove it.

This is the most asinine take on Jokic yet, and that is saying something.

I bet you did not watch Minny series last year, you are talking nonsense, Jokic carried Nuggets he was the only one who showed up, look at the numbers from that series.

He can't create his own shots? You are an absolute idiot to say this, you are talking about a guy that does it better and more effectively than anybody in the league today. Countless takes on this have been around for 5 years from most great players coaches and commentators. And his assists are a question of being able to read game faster than anyone and exploit this to his team's benefit. That's greatness man.

Sorry to upset you, Nikola. I watched every game of the Minnesota series. When it was time to stop their 3rd quarter comeback in game 7, Jokic was passive. That turned out to be the most important stretch in that series.

He had 34 points, 19 rebounds, and 7 assists that game

[hardenASG13]

Jokic is not a horrible defender. You criticize others of being homers and then say something completely false about Jokic. Jokic is not a rim protector period but he is one of best at deflections , defensive rebounding and steals etc. he is not terrible on the defensive end of the ball.

Of course he's a good defensive rebounder, he's huge and strong and boxes out well. He rebounds shots to his area extremely well. He doesn't pursue/rebound outside his area very well though. As for the steals, deflections etc......this board has put down things like steals, blocks, deflections, not necessarily making a a guy a good defender for ever (think Allen Iverson, for example), yet that doesn't apply for Jokic?

The last point, as you acknowledge, he's a poor rim/help defender. What is the most important defensive quality for a center/player his size? It's rim protection and help defense.

Also, unrelated, his assists are inflated by how Denver runs their offense. It's just constant DHO or zoom action/cutters off of jokic at the top. He leads the NBA in passes per game by a wide margin and is second in potential assists per game. Of course he gets a lot of assists. He can really fill a box score and is extremely efficient shooting. In the playoffs though, I have and do question his ability to create his own shot and whether he can maintain that efficiency while doing so. It's why, imo, his teams have struggled vs good teams in playoff series, because superstars (which he obviously is) have to create their own shots in a long, competitive playoff series. A good team will take what you like doing away. Combine it with his poor rim protection and help inside (again, the most important defensive quality for a player his size) and it's fair to question if it's problematic against good teams in a playoff series. You questioned it last year immediately when they got down to Minnesota,
in shocking fashion! He'll have to win some of those to disprove it.

What playoff series did the Nuggets lose that they “should” have won? The only two I can think of are the 2019 Series against the Trailblazers (where Jokic balled out) and the 2024 series against the Timberwolves that went to 7 even with Murray being very hobbled by injuries

That's a fair point, and I think it applies to many stars who have been deemed playoff failures previously, in that the series they've lost they weren't expected to win. But if we're trying to elevate him to GOAT status, which many here do and have been doing for years, the standard is that you win some series where you were the underdog or even with the team you're against. That's what I'm waiting to see him do before I stop incessantly arguing with the posters who put him in that GOAT class. He'll have another chance this year i assume/hope.

[Exp0sed]

Actually, it is Shai's offense that carries them. Without Shai on the court their defense gets marginally worse and their offense becomes near worst in the league. Essentially they become Orlando.

They're a +4.5 without him

That only shows how portable shai is as a ceiling raiser. Raising a good team to goat level is a lot more impressive than taking a weak team to very good levels as we all know

Jokic is too heliocentric which makes his teammates struggle when they are not playing jokic ball and forget how to play without him (never forget jokic less nuggets have a better record than shai less nuggets since last season after all)

Is why jokic teams are high floor and low ceiling like they are, his defensive limitations make it hard to build a true elite team around him

lol, that's a good one so thanks for that

Jokic has some obvious defensive limitations but he's also good to elite at other aspects of defense. all in all, he's a plus defender and has been for years. you do recall they won a 'chip just two season ago, right?

in that playoff run, the Nuggets had the 3rd best Def Rtg out of 16 playoff teams and had the best offense in the playoff, with a +2 margin on the 2nd ranked team (the Celtics). they did that with defensive juggernauts such as MPJ, Murray in the starting lineup and 36 year olds DAJ and Jeff Green backing Jokic up

but sure, it's Jokic's "defensive limitations" that make it tough on building a "truly elite team around him"

OKC has mutiple players in the top 40 of EPM etc. this season, you have teams like the Bucks who are middling despite Giannis playing with a top 75 ATG player, who casually dropped something like 43\13\6 when Giannis sat out the other day

you have teams like the C's and Cavs who are basically starting four all-stars!
meanwhile, Jokic has never played with another all-star and that's the only reason a "truly elite team" wasn't built around him (yet). forget about all-star teammate he doesn't even have a legit back-up Center for years now. this is a dude that took Will Barton and Facu Campazzo to the first round with nearly 50 wins. how do u think he would fare alongside say..Garland and Mobley? spoiler: they would be a "truly elite team"

Nuggets have some good players now for sure, but they don't have a single top 50 player outside of Jokic - truly elite teams have multiple stars

p.s, since Januray first, almost a month and a half, the Nuggets have the best defensive rating in the entire assosiaction. that's pretty crazy considering their defense is anchored by a Center whose got serious defensive limitations. I guess that MPJ is a real dog, ha? who knew...

[hardenASG13]

Jokic is not a horrible defender. You criticize others of being homers and then say something completely false about Jokic. Jokic is not a rim protector period but he is one of best at deflections , defensive rebounding and steals etc. he is not terrible on the defensive end of the ball.

Of course he's a good defensive rebounder, he's huge and strong and boxes out well. He rebounds shots to his area extremely well. He doesn't pursue/rebound outside his area very well though. As for the steals, deflections etc......this board has put down things like steals, blocks, deflections, not necessarily making a a guy a good defender for ever (think Allen Iverson, for example), yet that doesn't apply for Jokic?

The last point, as you acknowledge, he's a poor rim/help defender. What is the most important defensive quality for a center/player his size? It's rim protection and help defense.

Also, unrelated, his assists are inflated by how Denver runs their offense. It's just constant DHO or zoom action/cutters off of jokic at the top. He leads the NBA in passes per game by a wide margin and is second in potential assists per game. Of course he gets a lot of assists. He can really fill a box score and is extremely efficient shooting. In the playoffs though, I have and do question his ability to create his own shot and whether he can maintain that efficiency while doing so. It's why, imo, his teams have struggled vs good teams in playoff series, because superstars (which he obviously is) have to create their own shots in a long, competitive playoff series. A good team will take what you like doing away. Combine it with his poor rim protection and help inside (again, the most important defensive quality for a player his size) and it's fair to question if it's problematic against good teams in a playoff series. You questioned it last year immediately when they got down to Minnesota,
in shocking fashion! He'll have to win some of those to disprove it.

Watch on YouTube

Why though? And why just last year did you CREATE A THREAD titled Jokic is not him after they went down 0-2 to Minnesota? It seemed you were thinking the same thing.....

[_NoMas]

If you are saying OKC, MEM, Cleavland, Boston
Den is 2 - 2 vs Western teams and Jokic missed both games vs MEM
They lost all 3 to eastern teams but Jokic did not play vs Boston and had 2 triple doubles vs Clevland (27/20/11,27/14/13)
Those averages you are referencing are nonsense.

Cherry picking much?

The averages aren’t nonsense. They are cold hard facts lol. The top 4 in each conference… 7 teams in total (but yes he didn’t play against a couple of those teams yet). Fact is in 7 games against teams that are top 4 seeds in their conference, his assists drop, as does his ppg and efficiency (quite significantly).

You are cherry-picking as I said before, it is only 6 games and 2 vs Knicks that were his worst stats for different reasons.
And even with that, your stats are nonsense, in these 6 games he averaged 11 assists. he averaged 22/13/11 which is a bad line only for Jokic.

It’s 7 games.
Cavs x 2
Knicks x 2
Thunder X 2
Lakers

So his ppg and efficiency is massively down against the best performing teams he’s played against in either conference. Having said that apologies, I double checked and you’re right on assists, it’s actually 10.5… so rebounds and assists are the same as against anyone else.

[Special_Puppy]

Jokic is not a horrible defender. You criticize others of being homers and then say something completely false about Jokic. Jokic is not a rim protector period but he is one of best at deflections , defensive rebounding and steals etc. he is not terrible on the defensive end of the ball.

Of course he's a good defensive rebounder, he's huge and strong and boxes out well. He rebounds shots to his area extremely well. He doesn't pursue/rebound outside his area very well though. As for the steals, deflections etc......this board has put down things like steals, blocks, deflections, not necessarily making a a guy a good defender for ever (think Allen Iverson, for example), yet that doesn't apply for Jokic?

The last point, as you acknowledge, he's a poor rim/help defender. What is the most important defensive quality for a center/player his size? It's rim protection and help defense.

Also, unrelated, his assists are inflated by how Denver runs their offense. It's just constant DHO or zoom action/cutters off of jokic at the top. He leads the NBA in passes per game by a wide margin and is second in potential assists per game. Of course he gets a lot of assists. He can really fill a box score and is extremely efficient shooting. In the playoffs though, I have and do question his ability to create his own shot and whether he can maintain that efficiency while doing so. It's why, imo, his teams have struggled vs good teams in playoff series, because superstars (which he obviously is) have to create their own shots in a long, competitive playoff series. A good team will take what you like doing away. Combine it with his poor rim protection and help inside (again, the most important defensive quality for a player his size) and it's fair to question if it's problematic against good teams in a playoff series. You questioned it last year immediately when they got down to Minnesota,
in shocking fashion! He'll have to win some of those to disprove it.

Watch on YouTube

Jokic balled out the rest of the series tbf

[MyTake_1]

The averages aren’t nonsense. They are cold hard facts lol. The top 4 in each conference… 7 teams in total (but yes he didn’t play against a couple of those teams yet). Fact is in 7 games against teams that are top 4 seeds in their conference, his assists drop, as does his ppg and efficiency (quite significantly).

You are cherry-picking as I said before, it is only 6 games and 2 vs Knicks that were his worst stats for different reasons.
And even with that, your stats are nonsense, in these 6 games he averaged 11 assists. he averaged 22/13/11 which is a bad line only for Jokic.

It’s 7 games.
Cavs x 2
Knicks x 2
Thunder X 2
Lakers

So his ppg and efficiency is massively down against the best performing teams he’s played against in either conference. Having said that apologies, I double checked and you’re right on assists, it’s actually 10.5… so rebounds and assists are the same as against anyone else.

He had 34/18/8 vs Lakers, how does that help your argument? I mean come on man, it is 2 games vs Knicks and that 1st Thunder game that you try to represent as some sort of typical Jokic game vs good teams.

It's just stupid

[AleksandarN]

Of course he's a good defensive rebounder, he's huge and strong and boxes out well. He rebounds shots to his area extremely well. He doesn't pursue/rebound outside his area very well though. As for the steals, deflections etc......this board has put down things like steals, blocks, deflections, not necessarily making a a guy a good defender for ever (think Allen Iverson, for example), yet that doesn't apply for Jokic?

The last point, as you acknowledge, he's a poor rim/help defender. What is the most important defensive quality for a center/player his size? It's rim protection and help defense.

Also, unrelated, his assists are inflated by how Denver runs their offense. It's just constant DHO or zoom action/cutters off of jokic at the top. He leads the NBA in passes per game by a wide margin and is second in potential assists per game. Of course he gets a lot of assists. He can really fill a box score and is extremely efficient shooting. In the playoffs though, I have and do question his ability to create his own shot and whether he can maintain that efficiency while doing so. It's why, imo, his teams have struggled vs good teams in playoff series, because superstars (which he obviously is) have to create their own shots in a long, competitive playoff series. A good team will take what you like doing away. Combine it with his poor rim protection and help inside (again, the most important defensive quality for a player his size) and it's fair to question if it's problematic against good teams in a playoff series. You questioned it last year immediately when they got down to Minnesota,
in shocking fashion! He'll have to win some of those to disprove it.

Watch on YouTube

Why though? And why just last year did you CREATE A THREAD titled Jokic is not him after they went down 0-2 to Minnesota? It seemed you were thinking the same thing.....

I never said he cant create his own . Don’t lie man. And unlike some I call out players who are not playing up to their standards which he did later. So thanks for bringing up that thread. I don’t say dumb **** like you just posted. And I don’t mind calling out people who I am a fan of. It is called being balanced and not just a fan boy. So thanks bringing up the thread I made. You are easy work.

[_NoMas]

You are cherry-picking as I said before, it is only 6 games and 2 vs Knicks that were his worst stats for different reasons.
And even with that, your stats are nonsense, in these 6 games he averaged 11 assists. he averaged 22/13/11 which is a bad line only for Jokic.

It’s 7 games.
Cavs x 2
Knicks x 2
Thunder X 2
Lakers

So his ppg and efficiency is massively down against the best performing teams he’s played against in either conference. Having said that apologies, I double checked and you’re right on assists, it’s actually 10.5… so rebounds and assists are the same as against anyone else.

He had 34/18/8 vs Lakers, how does that help your argument? I mean come on man, it is 2 games vs Knicks and that 1st Thunder game that you try to represent as some sort of typical Jokic game vs good teams.

It's just stupid

And 57%ts vs the cavs in his two combined games against them. You’re very defensive… the point is he hasn’t got the standout games against the best teams like SGA has. I think SGA has been better against the best teams, with a bigger sample size.

It’s ok to think Jokic is comfortably the best player in the world, absolutely capable of dominating any and all defences… but also hold the view that it hasn’t quite happened for him yet against the best teams this year (some because he hasn’t played/ some because he’s been less efficient in the games he’s played against those teams)… and that SGA is the MVP for that reason (plus team record). You disagree, that’s cool. There are solid arguments for both.

[hardenASG13]

This is the most asinine take on Jokic yet, and that is saying something.

I bet you did not watch Minny series last year, you are talking nonsense, Jokic carried Nuggets he was the only one who showed up, look at the numbers from that series.

He can't create his own shots? You are an absolute idiot to say this, you are talking about a guy that does it better and more effectively than anybody in the league today. Countless takes on this have been around for 5 years from most great players coaches and commentators. And his assists are a question of being able to read game faster than anyone and exploit this to his team's benefit. That's greatness man.

Sorry to upset you, Nikola. I watched every game of the Minnesota series. When it was time to stop their 3rd quarter comeback in game 7, Jokic was passive. That turned out to be the most important stretch in that series.

He had 34 points, 19 rebounds, and 7 assists that game

He sure did, but he was MIA during the comeback in the 3rd which decided the series. He scored a bunch in the 4th, but the damage was done, Minnesota had gained the momentum in the game the game by then. If people here want to say hes an unstoppable force, a GOAT player, he's gotta step up during that run, not shrink and defer. Like imagine if prime Lebron lost in the second round, to an unaccomplished team, at home, and blew a 20 point second half lead in game 7 where he did nothing to try to stop the run. Heck many here like to say he was saved by Ray Allen in game 6 of the 2013 finals. LeBron had 32/11/10 in that game. If Jokic is having a "GOAT peak" which is flaoted on here all the time, disappearing during that comeback is unacceptable, no matter what his final stat line was.

[hardenASG13]

Watch on YouTube

Why though? And why just last year did you CREATE A THREAD titled Jokic is not him after they went down 0-2 to Minnesota? It seemed you were thinking the same thing.....

I never said he cant create his own . Don’t lie man. And unlike some I call out players who are not playing up to their standards which he did later. So thanks for bringing up that thread. I don’t say dumb **** like you just posted. And I don’t mind calling out people who I am a fan of. It is called being balanced and not just a fan boy. So thanks bringing up the thread I made. You are easy work.

Well if he's "not him" doesn't that imply he has limitations haha? I'm not lying. You say you don't say dumb stuff, but you said he wasn't him, but argue fiercely if anyone like me calls out his shortcomings. So which is it. BTW that thread and your attempted recovery was all time bad embarrassing, don't dig deeper on it. I made some valid criticisms (just like you less than a year ago) and you chose to respond with the classic Billy Madison clip. Either counter and explain your logic or don't comment.

[falcolombardi]

They're a +4.5 without him

That only shows how portable shai is as a ceiling raiser. Raising a good team to goat level is a lot more impressive than taking a weak team to very good levels as we all know

Jokic is too heliocentric which makes his teammates struggle when they are not playing jokic ball and forget how to play without him (never forget jokic less nuggets have a better record than shai less nuggets since last season after all)

Is why jokic teams are high floor and low ceiling like they are, his defensive limitations make it hard to build a true elite team around him

lol, that's a good one so thanks for that

Jokic has some obvious defensive limitations but he's also good to elite at other aspects of defense. all in all, he's a plus defender and has been for years. you do recall they won a 'chip just two season ago, right?

in that playoff run, the Nuggets had the 3rd best Def Rtg out of 16 playoff teams and had the best offense in the playoff, with a +2 margin on the 2nd ranked team (the Celtics). they did that with defensive juggernauts such as MPJ, Murray in the starting lineup and 36 year olds DAJ and Jeff Green backing Jokic up

but sure, it's Jokic's "defensive limitations" that make it tough on building a "truly elite team around him"

OKC has mutiple players in the top 40 of EPM etc. this season, you have teams like the Bucks who are middling despite Giannis playing with a top 75 ATG player, who casually dropped something like 43\13\6 when Giannis sat out the other day

you have teams like the C's and Cavs who are basically starting four all-stars!
meanwhile, Jokic has never played with another all-star and that's the only reason a "truly elite team" wasn't built around him (yet). forget about all-star teammate he doesn't even have a legit back-up Center for years now. this is a dude that took Will Barton and Facu Campazzo to the first round with nearly 50 wins. how do u think he would fare alongside say..Garland and Mobley? spoiler: they would be a "truly elite team"

Nuggets have some good players now for sure, but they don't have a single top 50 player outside of Jokic - truly elite teams have multiple stars

p.s, since Januray first, almost a month and a half, the Nuggets have the best defensive rating in the entire assosiaction. that's pretty crazy considering their defense is anchored by a Center whose got serious defensive limitations. I guess that MPJ is a real dog, ha? who knew...

No, that is okc

[OkcSinceSGA]

Jokic homers are incredibly stubborn and hostile. It's very cult like. It's okay to disagree.... and say Jokic is the best. But ya'll gotta chill with comments like "not even close" etc. OKC and SGA homers including me will readily admit Jokic is a deserving player and arguably the best player on the planet. Yet the Jokic homers can't seem to break their delusion and admit it's a competitive, legitimate battle.

Like tell me how my opinion isn't reasonable? I have said numerous times that THIS ONE SEASON they are in the same tier, flip flopping the MVP race multiple times already... but that overall until SGA proves himself in the playoffs more, Jokic can be considered greater. But even saying Jokic has a competitor for one singular season so far is somehow insulting lol.