2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

HurricaneKid · Post #961 » by **HurricaneKid** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:16 pm

I don't really disagree with you as much as you want it to appear.

The Rockets are winning because of their offense, 2nd in the NBA in PPG (5th in ORTG). That offense is absolutely spearheaded by Harden. Their DRTG is #21. OKC is the opposite. They win because of their #7 D, not because of their #18 offense. So one guy is spearheading a top 2/5 offense in the league and has his team playing WAY above their heads offensively, the other is carrying a rather sparse offense to the #18 offense in the league. I think it is telling that Harden is making their strength so much stronger while Westbrook is making a weakness a lesser weakness.

Post #962 » by **bondom34** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:35 pm

HurricaneKid wrote:I don't really disagree with you as much as you want it to appear.

The Rockets are winning because of their offense, 2nd in the NBA in PPG (5th in ORTG). That offense is absolutely spearheaded by Harden. Their DRTG is #21. OKC is the opposite. They win because of their #7 D, not because of their #18 offense. So one guy is spearheading a top 2/5 offense in the league and has his team playing WAY above their heads offensively, the other is carrying a rather sparse offense to the #18 offense in the league. I think it is telling that Harden is making their strength so much stronger while Westbrook is making a weakness a lesser weakness.

Except since Bev is back, the Rockets offense hasn't even fallen when Harden is on the bench. The defense is what's winning them these games relatively.

If you gave Harden the offensive talent on OKC, he'd have the same problems.

Jadoogar · Post #963 » by **Jadoogar** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:43 pm

Harden's team is built around his strengths and has a coach that really designed a system to showcase his skills. OKC has such poor shooters around Westbrook. Why didn't they keep Illyasova?

Gil · Post #964 » by **Gil** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:02 am

Funny how Harden suddenly has a better team now that the season started. That definitely wasn't the narrative before the season.

California Gold · Post #965 » by **California Gold** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:41 am

Gil wrote:Funny how Harden suddenly has a better team now that the season started. That definitely wasn't the narrative before the season.

People will overreact. Let them. When the Rockets are going cold and the hot shooters aren't hitting their 3's anymore, they'll change their opinion back to it being Harden carrying a bunch of scrubs.

Nothing has changed. Harden is leading this team. The Rockets aren't this good, but they're benefitting from a weak Western conference. Things will even out eventually.

K_chile22 · Post #966 » by **K_chile22** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:46 am

HurricaneKid wrote:I don't really disagree with you as much as you want it to appear.

The Rockets are winning because of their offense, 2nd in the NBA in PPG (5th in ORTG). That offense is absolutely spearheaded by Harden. Their DRTG is #21. OKC is the opposite. They win because of their #7 D, not because of their #18 offense. So one guy is spearheading a top 2/5 offense in the league and has his team playing WAY above their heads offensively, the other is carrying a rather sparse offense to the #18 offense in the league. I think it is telling that Harden is making their strength so much stronger while Westbrook is making a weakness a lesser weakness.

Rockets now 3rd in offensive rating and 17th in defensive rating btw

K_chile22 · Post #967 » by **K_chile22** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:54 am

The Rockets are currently on pace for 60 wins (obviously wont get there but mid to high 50s likely).
The Thunder are on pace for 47 wins.
Not sure if this still holds true but as of a few days ago the Rockets have played the most road games in the league, while the Thunder have played the fewest.
FiveThirtyEight projects the Rockets for 57 and the Thunder for 46.

Even if you think Westbrook has been better, he hasn't been 10+ wins better. Right now it's Harden's or KD's. Right now I've got KD but I think it's extremely close

Hero · Post #968 » by **Hero** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:33 am

HurricaneKid wrote:RWB is shooting a lower TS% than the league average. He is shooting a lower TS% than his team.

I'm all for seeing any player play all out the way he does; but this team has won based on their defense, not his gaudy stats. They are a top 5 defense right now and Westbrook is the worst defender out there a lot of the time. They are #18 in offense. Now its probably unfair to ask him to do any more than he is doing. But if he wants to be the first player ever to win MVP without an elite record shouldn't he be scoring at league avg efficiency and bolster an offense that is in the top half of the league?

His team is 7th right now and could very well finish around 6-8. There's just no way people will vote for him based on raw stats.

Post #969 » by **Young_Star11** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:04 am

If this keeps up, Houston wins at least 10 more games than OKC after the regular season. Talk about Harden and Westbrook all you like but head-to-head the advantage has to be with Harden then.

Post #970 » by **bondom34** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:27 am

Yep I think its Harden now (and tbh I think he's got it most likely). OKC won't win enough, Russ will snag some votes.

Post #971 » by **Mr. E** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:49 am

bondom34 wrote:Yep I think its Harden now (and tbh I think he's got it most likely). OKC won't win enough, Russ will snag some votes.

BallerTalk · Post #972 » by **BallerTalk** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:31 am

Gil wrote:Funny how Harden suddenly has a better team now that the season started. That definitely wasn't the narrative before the season.

So, you noticed that too. :lol:

Post #973 » by **QRich3** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:25 am

HurricaneKid wrote:I don't really disagree with you as much as you want it to appear.

The Rockets are winning because of their offense, 2nd in the NBA in PPG (5th in ORTG). That offense is absolutely spearheaded by Harden. Their DRTG is #21. OKC is the opposite. They win because of their #7 D, not because of their #18 offense. So one guy is spearheading a top 2/5 offense in the league and has his team playing WAY above their heads offensively, the other is carrying a rather sparse offense to the #18 offense in the league. I think it is telling that Harden is making their strength so much stronger while Westbrook is making a weakness a lesser weakness.

Is it really? Both are impressive, but I'm not sure I'll always take the guy making a great offensive cast work to their full potential over the guy that's allowing a one-way defensive unit to survive offensively and do their thing on the other end.

BallerTalk wrote:
Gil wrote:Funny how Harden suddenly has a better team now that the season started. That definitely wasn't the narrative before the season.

So, you noticed that too.

Eh, we're talking strictly offense here, anyone that thinks this Rockets team has the overall talent to get 60 wins and go far in the postseason is overreacting, but it was always obvious that they had the offensive talent that few teams in the league had. I can boast that I did see it coming and picked D'Antoni for COY because they'd overachieve though

Impuniti · Post #974 » by **Impuniti** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:35 pm

K_chile22 wrote:The Rockets are currently on pace for 60 wins (obviously wont get there but mid to high 50s likely).
The Thunder are on pace for 47 wins.
Not sure if this still holds true but as of a few days ago the Rockets have played the most road games in the league, while the Thunder have played the fewest.
FiveThirtyEight projects the Rockets for 57 and the Thunder for 46.

Even if you think Westbrook has been better, he hasn't been 10+ wins better. Right now it's Harden's or KD's. Right now I've got KD but I think it's extremely close

The only people who think WB is ahead of the pecking order right now should either be hot takes trip double fans or OKC fans. People can talk about what a bad team WB has, but I heard the same old song for Harden until he started leading his team into a much better record. Now the playlist's changed and it's a different story.

Harden still needs at least 3rd place to win it for me though, but if he finishes 2nd there shouldn't even be a discussion.

RaptorsLife · Post #975 » by **RaptorsLife** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:41 pm

james harden is definitely the mvp right now

asdfgh · Post #976 » by **asdfgh** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:23 pm

I like Westbrook more but I wouldn't mind if Harden got the award. He was robbed two years ago.

Benedict_Boozer · Post #977 » by **Benedict_Boozer** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:32 pm

Harden. No brainer

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Tritodian · Post #978 » by **Tritodian** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:13 pm

Gil wrote:Funny how Harden suddenly has a better team now that the season started. That definitely wasn't the narrative before the season.

I've noticed this sleight of hand trick too.

Projected team record before the season :

ESPN http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17886875/nba-projected-fall-forecast-standings-2016-17

OKC 46-36
Houston 45-37

FiveThirtyEight https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2017-nba-predictions/ (forecast from Oct.24 preseason)

OKC 50-32
Houston 45-37

So the two most reliable sources predicted OKC to be better than Houston this year, and now suddenly we all gonna pretend we knew Houston would be this good all along? Some pundits even put Houston at 7th or 8th place in the West, behind teams like Memphis, Utah and Portland.

The Houston Rockets are on pace for 60 wins this season with Ryan Anderson or Eric Gordon as the 2nd best player on that team. Let that sink in.

Triples333 · Post #979 » by **Triples333** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:47 pm

Might be time to enter Kawhi back into the talks. By far the best player on his squad on both ends for a 20-5 team. If they end up with the leagues best record over the Warriors he'd have a pretty strong case himself.

Gil · Post #980 » by **Gil** » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:28 am

Triples333 wrote:Might be time to enter Kawhi back into the talks. By far the best player on his squad on both ends for a 20-5 team. If they end up with the leagues best record over the Warriors he'd have a pretty strong case himself.

There's no case for Leonard at all. After a hot start he quickly cooled down and is putting up pedestrian stats for a would-be MVP.