MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened

[Joey Wheeler]

Forget base stats and Giannis being completely better than Lebron by every metric known to man. Net rating is what matters

Pascal siakam is +13.3 on court and the team is -5.7 when he's off the court for a total of +19 for a top 3 team in the league. Siakam should be ahead of everyone

Giannis's main strength offensively is how deadly he is in the paint. Even at that, Lebron is still better as his much superior vision/playmaking allow him to create better scoring opportunities for his teammates with his drives.

[Sulico]

Lebron and Davis playing together isn't really an argument for Giannis here. Both are overall superior players to Giannis, with less exploitable weaknesses come playoff time. If Giannis had AD on his team, he'd not be the best player on hsi team so the whole argument is a non-starter.

Giannis is comfortably better than AD, and probably better than LeBron too.

I have a feeling that post will age terribly come May 2020. AD is better on both ends, it's he who's comfortably better; Lebron is massively better on offense.

AD is better on both sides of the ball. Defensively it's pretty clear, doubt anyone would argue it (as good as Giannis himself is) and his offensive game is more resilient and less exploitable against tough playoff defenses.

Giannis is putting up huge RS statlines, but he's not even better at that, we've seen in his years at New Orleans that AD is the kind of crazy statlines if he puts his mind to it.

Any metrics known to men, and we have plenty in this age of analytics, puts Giannis ahead of AD both offensively and defensively by a big margin.
Care to explain how you came to that conlusion? Gut feeling? And how on earth did you assume that noone would argue your subjective opinion when it's totally contradicted by any stats available?

Following the league/watching games? Especially having watched both of them in the playoffs, there's no doubt about whose game holds up better, Davis has playoff numbers that rival Jordan and Lebron (on much smaller sample size of course) having played 66% of his series against the dynasty Warriors, while Giannis was kinda exposed offensively last year.

The hell are you talking about? Are you mad?

Playoffs WS/48 and BPM

Lebrons .269 / 11.1
Jordans .255 / 10.1

AD .184/ 3.9

[Joey Wheeler]

Giannis is comfortably better than AD, and probably better than LeBron too.

I have a feeling that post will age terribly come May 2020. AD is better on both ends, it's he who's comfortably better; Lebron is massively better on offense.

Any metrics known to men, and we have plenty in this age of analytics, puts Giannis ahead of AD both offensively and defensively by a big margin.
Care to explain how you came to that conlusion? Gut feeling? And how on earth did you assume that noone would argue your subjective opinion when it's totally contradicted by any stats available?

Following the league/watching games? Especially having watched both of them in the playoffs, there's no doubt about whose game holds up better, Davis has playoff numbers that rival Jordan and Lebron (on much smaller sample size of course) having played 66% of his series against the dynasty Warriors, while Giannis was kinda exposed offensively last year.

Davis couldnt even lead his team to the playoffs consistently. How do you even compare him to Giannis?

By that arbitrary criteria, favorably actually. 2 playoff appearances is still one more than Giannis would have led the Bucks to in the West until the end of the 2019 season. His 2019 squad and coaching was also by far superior to anything Davis ever had at NO so eh.

I'm not comparing them btw, for me Davis is clearly superior on both ends of the floor and that'll remain the case until Giannis can seriously elevate his game against tough playoff defenses. AD's defense is just flat out better, Giannis just doesn't have the physical ability to match it, though he's elite in his own right; offensively, I trust AD's scoring much more and I trust him more in late game situations too, while Giannis is known to turn the ball over too much and miss his free throws.

[Joey Wheeler]

Giannis is comfortably better than AD, and probably better than LeBron too.

I have a feeling that post will age terribly come May 2020. AD is better on both ends, it's he who's comfortably better; Lebron is massively better on offense.

Any metrics known to men, and we have plenty in this age of analytics, puts Giannis ahead of AD both offensively and defensively by a big margin.
Care to explain how you came to that conlusion? Gut feeling? And how on earth did you assume that noone would argue your subjective opinion when it's totally contradicted by any stats available?

Following the league/watching games? Especially having watched both of them in the playoffs, there's no doubt about whose game holds up better, Davis has playoff numbers that rival Jordan and Lebron (on much smaller sample size of course) having played 66% of his series against the dynasty Warriors, while Giannis was kinda exposed offensively last year.

The hell are you talking about? Are you mad?

Playoffs WS/48 and BPM

Lebrons .269 / 11.1
Jordans .255 / 10.1

AD .184/ 3.9

Did I say every stat rivaled Jordan/Lebron or that he was as good as them? Some do however. For instance, the top 2 per game scorers in NBA playoff history are Michael Jordan, followed by Anthony Davis. 5th highest PER in NBA playoff history; his true shooting % is top 15 (higher than Jordan/Lebron). Over his short playoff career, he's averaging 31/13/2, with 2 steals and 3 blocks, on 59% TS; in this case the short sample size actually works against him since the bulk of his games played were against the dynasty Warriors, who are also an elite playoff defense. We never saw anything close to this in Giannis's also short playoff career, in fact we saw some serious struggles on the offensive end.

[Vsauce12]

The Bucks’ 18th ranked strength of schedule - and hence their SRS as well - is definitely misleading right now. They’ve played a bunch of teams without its best and sometimes second best player.

Heat: No Jimmy Butler
Wolves: No Karl-Anthony Towns
Clippers: No Paul George or Kawhi Leonard
Jazz: No Rudy Gobert
Pacers: No Malcolm Brogdon
Pistons: No Blake Griffin
Blazers: No Damian Lillard or Hassan Whiteside

That’s 7 of their 18 matchups which makes a huge impact considering the sample size. You can even throw in Steven Adams missing the Bucks’ game against OKC.

Also for people making it seem like Giannis is playing with trash:

2019 RPM for Bucks/Lakers who have played >100 MP:
1. Anthony Davis: +5.74 (LAL)
2. Danny Green: +4.73 (LAL)
3. Brook Lopez: +4.07 (MIL)
4. Eric Bledsoe: +3.77 (MIL)
5. George Hill: +2.04 (MIL)
6. Khris Middleton: +1.89 (MIL)
7. Ersan Ilyasova: +1.39 (MIL)
8. Pat Connaughton: +0.10 (MIL)
9. Alex Caruso: +0.06 (LAL)
10. Kyle Kuzma: +0.01 (LAL)
11. Wesley Matthews: -0.05 (MIL)
12. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope: -0.77 (LAL)
13. Dwight Howard: -0.87 (LAL)
14. Kyle Korver: -1.03 (MIL)
15. Robin Lopez: -1.61 (MIL)
16. Donte DiVincenzo: -1.70 (MIL)
17. Troy Daniels: -2.20 (LAL)
18. JaVale McGee: -2.33 (LAL)
19. Sterling Brown: -2.38 (MIL)
20. Avery Bradley: -3.44 (LAL)
21. Rajon Rondo: -3.56 (LAL)
22. Quinn Cook: -4.03 (LAL)

Depth like that goes a long way. The Bucks hardly play any guys who aren’t at the very least decent. 5 of the 6 worst guys in RPM between the two teams belong to the Lakers. While the top 2 in the metric belong to the Lakers, Milwaukee has the next 6.

Again, having Giannis as the current MVP leader is reasonable. The issue is the same terrible arguments for his case where only the 2nd best players on their teams are compared or their SRS/opposing competition are brought up without the somewhat important context mentioned above. And while you can definitely say Giannis has the box score edge compared to LeBron:

Giannis: 12.2 BPM / .285 WS/48 / 32.9 PER / 8.36 PIPM
LeBron: 9.5 BPM / .252 WS/48 / 27.8 PER / 5.84 PIPM

LeBron has the impact metrics edge:

Giannis: +13.3 Net Rating / +11.8 On-Off / +9.2 RAPTOR / +1.12 in RAPM (14th)
LeBron: +13.5 Net Rating / +15.2 On-Off / +9.5 RAPTOR / +1.99 in RAPM (1st)

LeBron is actually the only one on the Lakers who has a negative off-court, meaning the Lakers’ get outscored when he’s on the bench.

James: -1.7 off the court
Howard: +7.5
Green: +7.9
Cook: +8.0
Caruso: +8.1
Kostas: +9.1
Rondo: +9.4
Norvell: +9.4
McGee: +9.5
Caldwell-Pope: +9.7
Bradley: +9.8
Kuzma: +10.5
Dudley: +11.3
Daniels: +11.8
Davis: +12.1

Finally roster and coaching continuity is another thing that doesn’t get taken into account but makes a difference. It’s easier for you team to perform well in the regular season when 9 of your top 10 guys in minutes played this year were on the roster last year (in the Bucks’ case) and you’re bringing back your same 2019 Coach of the Year winner. Compared to the Lakers where 4 out of the top 10 guys in minutes played were on the roster last year and they’ve got a new coach with a new system.

So I really don’t think it’s as clear cut and “NoT eVeN cLoSe” as a bunch of you guys make it seem. This is still very much a tight competition, and if I wasn’t too lazy I would’ve thrown in Luka and Harden for comparison, too. But I’d probably have my current rankings as:

1a. Giannis/LeBron
1b. LeBron/Giannis
(really can’t decide right now, it’s that close to me)
3. Doncic
4. Harden
5. Siakam

I don’t know what you bron stans are smoking but lebron and Giannis are not 1A to 1B it’s Giannis with a comfortable margin, he’s the Bucks everything, he leads the Bucks in every category except blocks, which he’s second in.

[mademan]

Lebron stans morphing into Kobe stans. Trying to compare Lebron to a clearly better player

[NY 567]

LeBron/Giannis
Luka
Harden

The rest aren't even worth mentioning at this point, as they have no chance. It's probably going to be an extremely tight race between LeBron and Giannis. Luka is a live wild card though, if he keeps producing like this and they can win 50+ he has a real shot

[Mos_Heat]

1. Giannis
2. Doncic
3. Lebron
4. Harden

[Mos_Heat]

I mean Giannis is scoring 31 ppg while playing like a top 3 DPOY candidate.

[yoyoboy]

The Bucks’ 18th ranked strength of schedule - and hence their SRS as well - is definitely misleading right now. They’ve played a bunch of teams without its best and sometimes second best player.

Heat: No Jimmy Butler
Wolves: No Karl-Anthony Towns
Clippers: No Paul George or Kawhi Leonard
Jazz: No Rudy Gobert
Pacers: No Malcolm Brogdon
Pistons: No Blake Griffin
Blazers: No Damian Lillard or Hassan Whiteside

That’s 7 of their 18 matchups which makes a huge impact considering the sample size. You can even throw in Steven Adams missing the Bucks’ game against OKC.

Also for people making it seem like Giannis is playing with trash:

2019 RPM for Bucks/Lakers who have played >100 MP:
1. Anthony Davis: +5.74 (LAL)
2. Danny Green: +4.73 (LAL)
3. Brook Lopez: +4.07 (MIL)
4. Eric Bledsoe: +3.77 (MIL)
5. George Hill: +2.04 (MIL)
6. Khris Middleton: +1.89 (MIL)
7. Ersan Ilyasova: +1.39 (MIL)
8. Pat Connaughton: +0.10 (MIL)
9. Alex Caruso: +0.06 (LAL)
10. Kyle Kuzma: +0.01 (LAL)
11. Wesley Matthews: -0.05 (MIL)
12. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope: -0.77 (LAL)
13. Dwight Howard: -0.87 (LAL)
14. Kyle Korver: -1.03 (MIL)
15. Robin Lopez: -1.61 (MIL)
16. Donte DiVincenzo: -1.70 (MIL)
17. Troy Daniels: -2.20 (LAL)
18. JaVale McGee: -2.33 (LAL)
19. Sterling Brown: -2.38 (MIL)
20. Avery Bradley: -3.44 (LAL)
21. Rajon Rondo: -3.56 (LAL)
22. Quinn Cook: -4.03 (LAL)

Depth like that goes a long way. The Bucks hardly play any guys who aren’t at the very least decent. 5 of the 6 worst guys in RPM between the two teams belong to the Lakers. While the top 2 in the metric belong to the Lakers, Milwaukee has the next 6.

Again, having Giannis as the current MVP leader is reasonable. The issue is the same terrible arguments for his case where only the 2nd best players on their teams are compared or their SRS/opposing competition are brought up without the somewhat important context mentioned above. And while you can definitely say Giannis has the box score edge compared to LeBron:

Giannis: 12.2 BPM / .285 WS/48 / 32.9 PER / 8.36 PIPM
LeBron: 9.5 BPM / .252 WS/48 / 27.8 PER / 5.84 PIPM

LeBron has the impact metrics edge:

Giannis: +13.3 Net Rating / +11.8 On-Off / +9.2 RAPTOR / +1.12 in RAPM (14th)
LeBron: +13.5 Net Rating / +15.2 On-Off / +9.5 RAPTOR / +1.99 in RAPM (1st)

LeBron is actually the only one on the Lakers who has a negative off-court, meaning the Lakers’ get outscored when he’s on the bench.

James: -1.7 off the court
Howard: +7.5
Green: +7.9
Cook: +8.0
Caruso: +8.1
Kostas: +9.1
Rondo: +9.4
Norvell: +9.4
McGee: +9.5
Caldwell-Pope: +9.7
Bradley: +9.8
Kuzma: +10.5
Dudley: +11.3
Daniels: +11.8
Davis: +12.1

Finally roster and coaching continuity is another thing that doesn’t get taken into account but makes a difference. It’s easier for you team to perform well in the regular season when 9 of your top 10 guys in minutes played this year were on the roster last year (in the Bucks’ case) and you’re bringing back your same 2019 Coach of the Year winner. Compared to the Lakers where 4 out of the top 10 guys in minutes played were on the roster last year and they’ve got a new coach with a new system.

So I really don’t think it’s as clear cut and “NoT eVeN cLoSe” as a bunch of you guys make it seem. This is still very much a tight competition, and if I wasn’t too lazy I would’ve thrown in Luka and Harden for comparison, too. But I’d probably have my current rankings as:

1a. Giannis/LeBron
1b. LeBron/Giannis
(really can’t decide right now, it’s that close to me)
3. Doncic
4. Harden
5. Siakam

I don’t know what you bron stans are smoking but lebron and Giannis are not 1A to 1B it’s Giannis with a comfortable margin, he’s the Bucks everything, he leads the Bucks in every category except blocks, which he’s second in.

That was a terrible response. At least make a better effort than that. You’re taking a very basic look at how basketball is played. There’s more to the game than the raw box score.

[Dupp]

The Bucks’ 18th ranked strength of schedule - and hence their SRS as well - is definitely misleading right now. They’ve played a bunch of teams without its best and sometimes second best player.

Heat: No Jimmy Butler
Wolves: No Karl-Anthony Towns
Clippers: No Paul George or Kawhi Leonard
Jazz: No Rudy Gobert
Pacers: No Malcolm Brogdon
Pistons: No Blake Griffin
Blazers: No Damian Lillard or Hassan Whiteside

That’s 7 of their 18 matchups which makes a huge impact considering the sample size. You can even throw in Steven Adams missing the Bucks’ game against OKC.

Also for people making it seem like Giannis is playing with trash:

2019 RPM for Bucks/Lakers who have played >100 MP:
1. Anthony Davis: +5.74 (LAL)
2. Danny Green: +4.73 (LAL)
3. Brook Lopez: +4.07 (MIL)
4. Eric Bledsoe: +3.77 (MIL)
5. George Hill: +2.04 (MIL)
6. Khris Middleton: +1.89 (MIL)
7. Ersan Ilyasova: +1.39 (MIL)
8. Pat Connaughton: +0.10 (MIL)
9. Alex Caruso: +0.06 (LAL)
10. Kyle Kuzma: +0.01 (LAL)
11. Wesley Matthews: -0.05 (MIL)
12. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope: -0.77 (LAL)
13. Dwight Howard: -0.87 (LAL)
14. Kyle Korver: -1.03 (MIL)
15. Robin Lopez: -1.61 (MIL)
16. Donte DiVincenzo: -1.70 (MIL)
17. Troy Daniels: -2.20 (LAL)
18. JaVale McGee: -2.33 (LAL)
19. Sterling Brown: -2.38 (MIL)
20. Avery Bradley: -3.44 (LAL)
21. Rajon Rondo: -3.56 (LAL)
22. Quinn Cook: -4.03 (LAL)

Depth like that goes a long way. The Bucks hardly play any guys who aren’t at the very least decent. 5 of the 6 worst guys in RPM between the two teams belong to the Lakers. While the top 2 in the metric belong to the Lakers, Milwaukee has the next 6.

Again, having Giannis as the current MVP leader is reasonable. The issue is the same terrible arguments for his case where only the 2nd best players on their teams are compared or their SRS/opposing competition are brought up without the somewhat important context mentioned above. And while you can definitely say Giannis has the box score edge compared to LeBron:

Giannis: 12.2 BPM / .285 WS/48 / 32.9 PER / 8.36 PIPM
LeBron: 9.5 BPM / .252 WS/48 / 27.8 PER / 5.84 PIPM

LeBron has the impact metrics edge:

Giannis: +13.3 Net Rating / +11.8 On-Off / +9.2 RAPTOR / +1.12 in RAPM (14th)
LeBron: +13.5 Net Rating / +15.2 On-Off / +9.5 RAPTOR / +1.99 in RAPM (1st)

LeBron is actually the only one on the Lakers who has a negative off-court, meaning the Lakers’ get outscored when he’s on the bench.

James: -1.7 off the court
Howard: +7.5
Green: +7.9
Cook: +8.0
Caruso: +8.1
Kostas: +9.1
Rondo: +9.4
Norvell: +9.4
McGee: +9.5
Caldwell-Pope: +9.7
Bradley: +9.8
Kuzma: +10.5
Dudley: +11.3
Daniels: +11.8
Davis: +12.1

Finally roster and coaching continuity is another thing that doesn’t get taken into account but makes a difference. It’s easier for you team to perform well in the regular season when 9 of your top 10 guys in minutes played this year were on the roster last year (in the Bucks’ case) and you’re bringing back your same 2019 Coach of the Year winner. Compared to the Lakers where 4 out of the top 10 guys in minutes played were on the roster last year and they’ve got a new coach with a new system.

So I really don’t think it’s as clear cut and “NoT eVeN cLoSe” as a bunch of you guys make it seem. This is still very much a tight competition, and if I wasn’t too lazy I would’ve thrown in Luka and Harden for comparison, too. But I’d probably have my current rankings as:

1a. Giannis/LeBron
1b. LeBron/Giannis
(really can’t decide right now, it’s that close to me)
3. Doncic
4. Harden
5. Siakam

I don’t know what you bron stans are smoking but lebron and Giannis are not 1A to 1B it’s Giannis with a comfortable margin, he’s the Bucks everything, he leads the Bucks in every category except blocks, which he’s second in.

Very convincing argument. You sure showed him

[dynamic duo]

lebron is the clear-cut mvp right now but they'll give it to one of the playoff chokers as it has been the case for years now.

[nzahir]

Where is the robbery part?

Numbers say Lebron is more VALUABLE atm. His net rating is higher. AD w/o lebron posts a NEGATIVE net rating of over 5.

Lebron is playing with castaways like Rondo, KCP, Mcgee, and Dwight all getting real minutes. Giannis doesn't have someone as good as AD, but they have a ton of depth. Middleton is an all star in the east and Bledsoe is a good player (if he doesn't **** himself come playoffs). Tons of shooters and versatile wings.

Lebron has been robbed multiple times imo

And if the award is about the best player in the league (who isn't load managing), then why would it be Giannis with his flaws that will be exposed come playoffs?

Playing in the west means you don't get a ton of those crappy east teams at the bottom to just cruise through.

This won't come into play but I saw this:

The Milwaukee Bucks have faced the Heat without Jimmy Butler, the Wolves without Karl Anthony Towns, the Clippers without Paul George or Kawhi Leonard, the Jazz without Rudy Gobert, the Pistons without Griffin, and the Blazers without Damian Lillard.

All In less than 20 games, talk about good fortune

I would be with you and anybody else who defends Lebron but everybody keeps conveniently forgetting that Lebron plays with Anthony Davis who is arguably a top 5 player in the league(oh who happens to be 5th in PER). And you can't bring up Giannis should be penalized for playing in a weak East when Lebron was getting MVPs in an Eastern Conference that the majority of the time was only 2 deep contender-wise(maybe 3 some years). I'm also not understanding the logic of bringing up Giannis's playoff perfomances or potential playoff performances when its a regular season award. And can we all be clear and honest, no one and I mean no one is taking Middleton over several other teams 2nd best player so please stop bringing up the all-star appearance. If you have one of the top 2 seeds in the conference the coaches do that by default to reward winning. A lot of the time that has nothing to do with a player's actual league ranking.

Now if the Lakers win some godly amount of games(like 66 or higher) than I agree you have to give it to Lebron. But if the Bucks get the top record in the league again, Giannis is running away with it. I actually do think Lebron is a better player than Giannis but that has never been what the MVP award is about. This isn't MLB.

Giannis is my pick for the MVP right now but yes LeBron play with Davis but we need to look at the rest of the roster...If the Lakers won over 60 games,LeBron will be a strong candidat.

How about compare the rest of the team?
For regular season, depth is very important

Middleton, Bledsoe, Hill, Pat C, Wes Matthews, Korver, Brook Lopez, Robin Lopez, Illyasova, sterling brown, and DJ Wilson

Vs

AD, Green, Kcp, Kuzma, Avery, McGee, Dwight, Rondo, Cook, Caruso, Dudley, and Troy Daniels

So AD is the best of those guys. Then Middleton and Bledsoe. And then some are up for debate, but clearly favoring MIL. But most bucks players are longer and better shooters. Also making them better fits

[Vsauce12]

The Bucks’ 18th ranked strength of schedule - and hence their SRS as well - is definitely misleading right now. They’ve played a bunch of teams without its best and sometimes second best player.

Heat: No Jimmy Butler
Wolves: No Karl-Anthony Towns
Clippers: No Paul George or Kawhi Leonard
Jazz: No Rudy Gobert
Pacers: No Malcolm Brogdon
Pistons: No Blake Griffin
Blazers: No Damian Lillard or Hassan Whiteside

That’s 7 of their 18 matchups which makes a huge impact considering the sample size. You can even throw in Steven Adams missing the Bucks’ game against OKC.

Also for people making it seem like Giannis is playing with trash:

2019 RPM for Bucks/Lakers who have played >100 MP:
1. Anthony Davis: +5.74 (LAL)
2. Danny Green: +4.73 (LAL)
3. Brook Lopez: +4.07 (MIL)
4. Eric Bledsoe: +3.77 (MIL)
5. George Hill: +2.04 (MIL)
6. Khris Middleton: +1.89 (MIL)
7. Ersan Ilyasova: +1.39 (MIL)
8. Pat Connaughton: +0.10 (MIL)
9. Alex Caruso: +0.06 (LAL)
10. Kyle Kuzma: +0.01 (LAL)
11. Wesley Matthews: -0.05 (MIL)
12. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope: -0.77 (LAL)
13. Dwight Howard: -0.87 (LAL)
14. Kyle Korver: -1.03 (MIL)
15. Robin Lopez: -1.61 (MIL)
16. Donte DiVincenzo: -1.70 (MIL)
17. Troy Daniels: -2.20 (LAL)
18. JaVale McGee: -2.33 (LAL)
19. Sterling Brown: -2.38 (MIL)
20. Avery Bradley: -3.44 (LAL)
21. Rajon Rondo: -3.56 (LAL)
22. Quinn Cook: -4.03 (LAL)

Depth like that goes a long way. The Bucks hardly play any guys who aren’t at the very least decent. 5 of the 6 worst guys in RPM between the two teams belong to the Lakers. While the top 2 in the metric belong to the Lakers, Milwaukee has the next 6.

Again, having Giannis as the current MVP leader is reasonable. The issue is the same terrible arguments for his case where only the 2nd best players on their teams are compared or their SRS/opposing competition are brought up without the somewhat important context mentioned above. And while you can definitely say Giannis has the box score edge compared to LeBron:

Giannis: 12.2 BPM / .285 WS/48 / 32.9 PER / 8.36 PIPM
LeBron: 9.5 BPM / .252 WS/48 / 27.8 PER / 5.84 PIPM

LeBron has the impact metrics edge:

Giannis: +13.3 Net Rating / +11.8 On-Off / +9.2 RAPTOR / +1.12 in RAPM (14th)
LeBron: +13.5 Net Rating / +15.2 On-Off / +9.5 RAPTOR / +1.99 in RAPM (1st)

LeBron is actually the only one on the Lakers who has a negative off-court, meaning the Lakers’ get outscored when he’s on the bench.

James: -1.7 off the court
Howard: +7.5
Green: +7.9
Cook: +8.0
Caruso: +8.1
Kostas: +9.1
Rondo: +9.4
Norvell: +9.4
McGee: +9.5
Caldwell-Pope: +9.7
Bradley: +9.8
Kuzma: +10.5
Dudley: +11.3
Daniels: +11.8
Davis: +12.1

Finally roster and coaching continuity is another thing that doesn’t get taken into account but makes a difference. It’s easier for you team to perform well in the regular season when 9 of your top 10 guys in minutes played this year were on the roster last year (in the Bucks’ case) and you’re bringing back your same 2019 Coach of the Year winner. Compared to the Lakers where 4 out of the top 10 guys in minutes played were on the roster last year and they’ve got a new coach with a new system.

So I really don’t think it’s as clear cut and “NoT eVeN cLoSe” as a bunch of you guys make it seem. This is still very much a tight competition, and if I wasn’t too lazy I would’ve thrown in Luka and Harden for comparison, too. But I’d probably have my current rankings as:

1a. Giannis/LeBron
1b. LeBron/Giannis
(really can’t decide right now, it’s that close to me)
3. Doncic
4. Harden
5. Siakam

I don’t know what you bron stans are smoking but lebron and Giannis are not 1A to 1B it’s Giannis with a comfortable margin, he’s the Bucks everything, he leads the Bucks in every category except blocks, which he’s second in.

Very convincing argument. You sure showed him

Thanks, when one player is **** on the other like this in advanced metrics


Giannis: 12.2 BPM / .285 WS/48 / 32.9 PER / 8.36 PIPM / DPIPM 3.30
LeBron: 9.5 BPM / .252 WS/48 / 27.8 PER / 5.84 PIPM / DPIPM 0.65

Trying to act like they’re remotely close in MVP standings is nothing but blind Stan hood. Using team impact metrics when it’s due to lebron just straight up dominating the ball.

Giannis is the MVP rn by a comfortable margin

[Vsauce12]

I would be with you and anybody else who defends Lebron but everybody keeps conveniently forgetting that Lebron plays with Anthony Davis who is arguably a top 5 player in the league(oh who happens to be 5th in PER). And you can't bring up Giannis should be penalized for playing in a weak East when Lebron was getting MVPs in an Eastern Conference that the majority of the time was only 2 deep contender-wise(maybe 3 some years). I'm also not understanding the logic of bringing up Giannis's playoff perfomances or potential playoff performances when its a regular season award. And can we all be clear and honest, no one and I mean no one is taking Middleton over several other teams 2nd best player so please stop bringing up the all-star appearance. If you have one of the top 2 seeds in the conference the coaches do that by default to reward winning. A lot of the time that has nothing to do with a player's actual league ranking.

Now if the Lakers win some godly amount of games(like 66 or higher) than I agree you have to give it to Lebron. But if the Bucks get the top record in the league again, Giannis is running away with it. I actually do think Lebron is a better player than Giannis but that has never been what the MVP award is about. This isn't MLB.

Giannis is my pick for the MVP right now but yes LeBron play with Davis but we need to look at the rest of the roster...If the Lakers won over 60 games,LeBron will be a strong candidat.

How about compare the rest of the team?
For regular season, depth is very important

Middleton, Bledsoe, Hill, Pat C, Wes Matthews, Korver, Brook Lopez, Robin Lopez, Illyasova, sterling brown, and DJ Wilson

Vs

AD, Green, Kcp, Kuzma, Avery, McGee, Dwight, Rondo, Cook, Caruso, Dudley, and Troy Daniels

So AD is the best of those guys. Then Middleton and Bledsoe. And then some are up for debate, but clearly favoring MIL. But most bucks players are longer and better shooters. Also making them better fits

Middleton missed 8 games and the bucks didn’t miss a beat, you know why? Because of Giannis. Let AD miss 8 games lakers are going on a losing streak. The lakers second best player>>>>>>Middleton and Bledsoe. I mean Giannis legit needed to drop 50 just to beat the jazz at home with no Gobert but keep telling me about how the bucks are just this deep team

[Dupp]

Giannis dominates the ball too no?

Also they are close because the media votes for this award not you and a lot of the media are talking about the lakers and saying lebron is mvp. That’s not blind Stanhood it’s reality.

[Dupp]

Giannis is my pick for the MVP right now but yes LeBron play with Davis but we need to look at the rest of the roster...If the Lakers won over 60 games,LeBron will be a strong candidat.

How about compare the rest of the team?
For regular season, depth is very important

Middleton, Bledsoe, Hill, Pat C, Wes Matthews, Korver, Brook Lopez, Robin Lopez, Illyasova, sterling brown, and DJ Wilson

Vs

AD, Green, Kcp, Kuzma, Avery, McGee, Dwight, Rondo, Cook, Caruso, Dudley, and Troy Daniels

So AD is the best of those guys. Then Middleton and Bledsoe. And then some are up for debate, but clearly favoring MIL. But most bucks players are longer and better shooters. Also making them better fits

Middleton missed 8 games and the bucks didn’t miss a beat, you know why? Because of Giannis. Let AD miss 8 games lakers are going on a losing streak. The lakers second best player>>>>>>Middleton and Bledsoe. I mean Giannis legit needed to drop 50 just to beat the jazz at home with no Gobert but keep telling me about how the bucks are just this deep team

The bucks are a deep team. Sounds like some blind stanhood creeping into your posts.

[mademan]

Giannis dominates the ball too no?

Also they are close because the media votes for this award not you and a lot of the media are talking about the lakers and saying lebron is mvp. That’s not blind Stanhood it’s reality.

And the media should be called out on it. Lebron winning it over Giannis this year is like Rose winning in 2011

[yoyoboy]

I don’t know what you bron stans are smoking but lebron and Giannis are not 1A to 1B it’s Giannis with a comfortable margin, he’s the Bucks everything, he leads the Bucks in every category except blocks, which he’s second in.

Very convincing argument. You sure showed him

Thanks, when one player is **** on the other like this in advanced metrics


Giannis: 12.2 BPM / .285 WS/48 / 32.9 PER / 8.36 PIPM / DPIPM 3.30
LeBron: 9.5 BPM / .252 WS/48 / 27.8 PER / 5.84 PIPM / DPIPM 0.65

Trying to act like they’re remotely close in MVP standings is nothing but blind Stan hood. Using team impact metrics when it’s due to lebron just straight up dominating the ball.

Giannis is the MVP rn by a comfortable margin

The problem is people like you will spout out these “advanced” stats (that really aren’t all that advanced) as the be all-end all determinants of who’s playing better without even knowing what really goes into those stats. Do you even know how they’re calculated? I do. And they basically all tell you the same thing by trying to create some all-in-one metric based on the box score; your basic measure of who’s playing better where you see who checks off more of those boxes is a bad one. We’ve already established that Giannis has better box score numbers. I already referenced them in my original post, so your counter argument is a poor one because you provided me no new information, no new perspectives, no direct responses to anything I brought up, no refutations of anything I said... And so without any of those, I can safely say your reply was subpar.

[Vsauce12]

How about compare the rest of the team?
For regular season, depth is very important

Middleton, Bledsoe, Hill, Pat C, Wes Matthews, Korver, Brook Lopez, Robin Lopez, Illyasova, sterling brown, and DJ Wilson

Vs

AD, Green, Kcp, Kuzma, Avery, McGee, Dwight, Rondo, Cook, Caruso, Dudley, and Troy Daniels

So AD is the best of those guys. Then Middleton and Bledsoe. And then some are up for debate, but clearly favoring MIL. But most bucks players are longer and better shooters. Also making them better fits

Middleton missed 8 games and the bucks didn’t miss a beat, you know why? Because of Giannis. Let AD miss 8 games lakers are going on a losing streak. The lakers second best player>>>>>>Middleton and Bledsoe. I mean Giannis legit needed to drop 50 just to beat the jazz at home with no Gobert but keep telling me about how the bucks are just this deep team

The bucks are a deep team. Sounds like some blind stanhood creeping into your posts.

The bucks are such a deep team that last year they were 4-6 without Giannis. Such a deep team that in the playoff Giannis lead them in every single statistical category. Such a deep team that Giannis once again leads them in everything, except blocks and when he sits they collapse.

Deep teams don’t have one player being their best scorer, rebounder, player maker and defender. Dont kid yourself, the bucks are nothing but Giannis and a bunch of role players

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