MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

[scrabbarista]

I missed this thread when it came out a couple of weeks ago: the only two 20 ppg 50/43/90 guys in NBA history are unanimous MVP Stephen Curry and Khris Middleton this season. Kind of crazy.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=fg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=.500&c3stat=fg3_pct&c3comp=gt&c3val=.430&c4stat=ft_pct&c4comp=gt&c4val=.900&order_by=ws

[Homer38]

So Giannis doesn’t deserve it because of 2009/2013? Get the **** out of here. LeBron stans are ridiculous.

Let’s not forget Giannis is a DPOY candidate too

I never said that….I hate so much when someone said something that the others has never said that

[Homer38]

I missed this thread when it came out a couple of weeks ago: the only two 20 ppg 50/43/90 guys in NBA history are unanimous MVP Stephen Curry and Khris Middleton this season. Pretty crazy.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=fg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=.500&c3stat=fg3_pct&c3comp=gt&c3val=.430&c4stat=ft_pct&c4comp=gt&c4val=.900&order_by=ws

Arbitrary stats..Middleton is an all-star but not a super star like Westbrook

BTW, LeBron just won another player of the month award over Harden or another great player in the west.

[SeniorWalker]

For LeBron to win (I'm saying get the votes, not deserve to win) the Lakers need to win on Friday, he has to have a really impressive showing, and the Lakers would need to finish ahead of Milwaukee. It might take AD missing some games en route to all that happening as well.

I agree. Milwaukee needs to slip, Lakers need to mostly win out the rest of their games and LeBron needs to have some classic performances. Then it would become close. (In the eyes of the media. IMO AD is being downplayed way too much and it's still not close. The guy is doing what he always has, LeBron didn't make him better....but people seem to be ignoring that he is a big part of why LeBron's assists totals have been increasing).

That would be an epic collapse by Milwaukee though, theyd have to start losing a lot. You never know....but unless that scenario happens, it's over.

A roster does not stop at 2 players....

Giannis is the MVP, but a roster has more than 2 players.The Lakers are not in the same situation as the Warriors were in 2017.

I was not aware NBA teams had more than two players on them....

The fact is, LeBron plays with a teammate who can easily be argued to be providing nearly the amount of lift he does. Davis leads the lakers in many categories offensively and is their defense anchor. I think LeBron is the lakers most important player but it isnt like hes dragging bums to the 1st seed when his teammate is arguably as good as he is.

Giannis has nobody in his stratosphere in his team. His roster construction is more complete but he shoulders the most responsibility by far.

[RB34]

So Giannis doesn’t deserve it because of 2009/2013? Get the **** out of here. LeBron stans are ridiculous.

Let’s not forget Giannis is a DPOY candidate too

I never said that….I hate so much when someone said something that the others has never said that

Hey man, I didn’t quote you directly because you’re not the only on putting forward arguments similar to that. They’re everywhere.

[scrabbarista]

I missed this thread when it came out a couple of weeks ago: the only two 20 ppg 50/43/90 guys in NBA history are unanimous MVP Stephen Curry and Khris Middleton this season. Pretty crazy.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=fg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=.500&c3stat=fg3_pct&c3comp=gt&c3val=.430&c4stat=ft_pct&c4comp=gt&c4val=.900&order_by=ws

Arbitrary stats..Middleton is an all-star but not a super star like Westbrook

BTW, LeBron just won another player of the month award over Harden or another great player in the west.

You crack me up, man. Whatever stats I post, your only comeback is "those are the wrong stats."

Check this out:

per100

Westbrook
35/10/9 with 6 TO's on .538 TS%

Middleton
32/10/6 with 3 TO's on .625 TS%

And Middleton is a better defender playing on a team with an .852 winning percentage.

Here's another interesting one:

Westbrook has a 34% USG (23 shots per game) compared to Middleton's 26% USG (15 shots per game), and Middleton still has a higher PER! If you understand anything about PER, that's pretty crazy.

[Homer38]

So Giannis doesn’t deserve it because of 2009/2013? Get the **** out of here. LeBron stans are ridiculous.

Let’s not forget Giannis is a DPOY candidate too

I never said that….I hate so much when someone said something that the others has never said that

Hey man, I didn’t quote you directly because you’re not the only on putting forward arguments similar to that. They’re everywhere.

fine

[Homer38]

I missed this thread when it came out a couple of weeks ago: the only two 20 ppg 50/43/90 guys in NBA history are unanimous MVP Stephen Curry and Khris Middleton this season. Pretty crazy.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=fg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=.500&c3stat=fg3_pct&c3comp=gt&c3val=.430&c4stat=ft_pct&c4comp=gt&c4val=.900&order_by=ws

Arbitrary stats..Middleton is an all-star but not a super star like Westbrook

BTW, LeBron just won another player of the month award over Harden or another great player in the west.

You crack me up, man. Whatever stats I post, your only comeback is "those are the wrong stats."

Check this out:

per100

Westbrook
35/10/9 with 6 TO's on .538 TS%

Middleton
32/10/6 with 3 TO's on .625 TS%

And Middleton is a better defender playing on a team with an .852 winning percentage.

Here's another interesting one:

Westbrook has a 34% USG (23 shots per game) compared to Middleton's 26% USG (15 shots per game), and Middleton still has a higher PER! If you understand anything about PER, that's pretty crazy.

Of course, Westbrook was not very good in the first two months, which is one of the reasons why his stats are not better, but since that time, he is a monster and carries a bigger load to his team, especially in February!

I believe he plays even better than his MVP season in the last month

[SeniorWalker]

Khris Middleton's last 19 games before last night:

25/7/5 on 56/52/91 (.702 TS%) with 2 TO's in 32 mins per game, 17-2 team record.

Over that same stretch, Russell Westbrook:

33/8/8 on 53/31/79 (.581 TS%) with 4 TO's in 38 mins per game, 9-6 team record.

Any reasonable person could prefer either of those lines.

The real point, though, is that the MVP is, supposedly, an 82-game award. Only when it comes to James Harden do people seem to just pick whatever his weakest stretch is - or his teammate's best stretch - to make their dubious points. Last season, it was the first 25 games (when he actually played great but got zero help), and this season it's mostly just a 9-game stretch in January that's "dragging him down." I get that consistency is important, but being good is a hundred times more important than being consistent.

To be clear (since one or two people tried to put words in my mouth), I still have Antetokounmpo as the MVP. I just think LeBron James over James Harden is silly. So do 90% of the numbers.

FWIW, I have LeBron as number 2 because of the Lakers western conference dominance but for my money Harden has been a better regular season player than him for several years now. Harden would be #3 on my list probably. If the rockets were closer in the standings I'd consider him more over LeBron.
I dont think LeBron is way ahead for #2, so many people seem to just be dismissing the fact that he plays with AD, who has always performed around this level and lead western conference playoff teams. The Lakers were nowhere near the #1 seed last year, suddenly they get AD and all the credit goes to LeBron. Seems disingenuous.

[KGtabake]

Still, i think that Tatum can win the ECPoTM.

[Homer38]

I agree. Milwaukee needs to slip, Lakers need to mostly win out the rest of their games and LeBron needs to have some classic performances. Then it would become close. (In the eyes of the media. IMO AD is being downplayed way too much and it's still not close. The guy is doing what he always has, LeBron didn't make him better....but people seem to be ignoring that he is a big part of why LeBron's assists totals have been increasing).

That would be an epic collapse by Milwaukee though, theyd have to start losing a lot. You never know....but unless that scenario happens, it's over.

A roster does not stop at 2 players....

Giannis is the MVP, but a roster has more than 2 players.The Lakers are not in the same situation as the Warriors were in 2017.

I was not aware NBA teams had more than two players on them....

The fact is, LeBron plays with a teammate who can easily be argued to be providing nearly the amount of lift he does. Davis leads the lakers in many categories offensively and is their defense anchor. I think LeBron is the lakers most important player but it isnt like hes dragging bums to the 1st seed when his teammate is arguably as good as he is.

Giannis has nobody in his stratosphere in his team. His roster construction is more complete but he shoulders the most responsibility by far.

If it weren't for Giannis, LeBron would easily be the MVP, since no one would have predicted that the Lakers would be in the first seed in the west by over 5 games early in March...Many had doubts about the rest of the roster after LeBron and Davis.

[scrabbarista]

Khris Middleton's last 19 games before last night:

25/7/5 on 56/52/91 (.702 TS%) with 2 TO's in 32 mins per game, 17-2 team record.

Over that same stretch, Russell Westbrook:

33/8/8 on 53/31/79 (.581 TS%) with 4 TO's in 38 mins per game, 9-6 team record.

Any reasonable person could prefer either of those lines.

The real point, though, is that the MVP is, supposedly, an 82-game award. Only when it comes to James Harden do people seem to just pick whatever his weakest stretch is - or his teammate's best stretch - to make their dubious points. Last season, it was the first 25 games (when he actually played great but got zero help), and this season it's mostly just a 9-game stretch in January that's "dragging him down." I get that consistency is important, but being good is a hundred times more important than being consistent.

To be clear (since one or two people tried to put words in my mouth), I still have Antetokounmpo as the MVP. I just think LeBron James over James Harden is silly. So do 90% of the numbers.

FWIW, I have LeBron as number 2 because of the Lakers western conference dominance but for my money Harden has been a better regular season player than him for several years now. Harden would be #3 on my list probably. If the rockets were closer in the standings I'd consider him more over LeBron.
I dont think LeBron is way ahead for #2, so many people seem to just be dismissing the fact that he plays with AD, who has always performed around this level and lead western conference playoff teams. The Lakers were nowhere near the #1 seed last year, suddenly they get AD and all the credit goes to LeBron. Seems disingenuous.

James Harden finishes higher in almost every advanced stat over LeBron James. I think I've posted the stats twice here in the last week and got zero responses. Probably people just want to ignore it until they forget about it. Those stats incorporate winning, on-off, efficiency, load, raw numbers, everything. And 90% of them have Harden higher than James. Some of them have him a lot higher. But somehow all of that gets outweighed by, "Look at the team records!"

To your first paragraph, Harden has obviously been better in the regular season for a while, but just as equally obviously has never been an actual better player than James, unless you count last season, which was kind of a mulligan for James and the Lakers. I'm not trying to pretend that I'd take Harden over James if I wanted to win a playoff game or series today. I'd take James #1 in the league for that, based on his play this season. But he should be super far behind Harden in the MVP race so far, based on a balanced look at the objective facts. I know the MVP never has been and never will be an exercise in objectivity; I think that's stupid.

As to your second paragraph, it's a good point. I think the statistics do a fair job of parsing how much credit should go to which player. That's what statistics are for, after all. I think James should be a clear #3 in the MVP race at the moment. To anyone watching the games (or just looking at the On-Off stats), he's been far and away the Lakers' best player. But Davis has been great, too. My MVP formula has Davis at 9th right now. Khris Middleton is 8th. Russell Westbrook? He's 37th. I didn't just make this formula up yesterday in order to plug James Harden. I created it at the beginning of this season, and it matches the last eight MVP winners. It has Antetokounmpo first, Harden second by a decent margin, and then James third by an even bigger margin.

It is what it is, though. I learned in this thread last season that plugging Harden for anything is just talking into the wind. I don't really expect anyone to actually listen or take me seriously. I'm just bored, so I'm posting. I think pretty much every Rockets fan on Earth has already realized that the only chance Harden has of even hoping to stop the irrational hatred is probably to win a championship. Even if he does that... it takes me like two seconds to think of a half dozen excuses the haters will use. It is what it is.

[greekbuck34]

Giannis and the Bucks are 9-0 without Middleton including 7 straight games.
3 of those wins were against above .500% teams.
The Bucks are 5-1 without Giannis with only 1 team above .500% team(the only loss)

The Rockets are 6-4 without Westbrook. Just one team above .500%(Utah Jazz) among them.
Harden is 4-3 without Westbrook.
The Rockets are 2-1 without Harden and Westbrook. Including the game (Win) against Utah Jazz.

Lebron is 5-2 without AD.
3 Of those games (2-1) were against above .500% teams
The Lakers are 1-0 without both AD and Lebron. Blowout win against OKC.

[scrabbarista]

Still, i think that Tatum can win the ECPoTM.

James Harden

31.9 - 6.5 - 7.9 4.5 3PM 9-2 record

As always, when in doubt, the answer is "not James Harden." Flip Harden's and James' February's, and James still would've won.

As the guy below me posted, Harden also beasted James in TS% and beat him in net rating and DIFF%, too. Sheesh.

[greekbuck34]

Eastern Conference

Tatum: 30.7/7.9/3.2 in 37.2 MPG, 63.3 TS%, +6.9 netrtg, 17.4 PIE, -2,3%(DIFF%) and a 9-3 record
Giannis: 28.3/17/6.4 in 31.5 MPG, 62.1 TS%, +20.8 netrtg, 25.6 PIE, -22.4%(DIFF%) and a 9-0 record

Western Conference

Lebron: 26/8.1/10.1 in 34.9 MPG, 58.8 TS%, +8.0 netrtg, 18.8 PIE, +2,4%(DIFF%) and a 8-2 record
AD: 26/9.8/3.3 in 33.0 MPG, 60.5 TS%, +6.1 netrtg, 17.5 PIE, -4,5%(DIFF%) and a 9-2 record
Harden: 31.9/6.5/7.9 in 35.6 MPG, 64.5 TS%, +9.7 netrtg, 18.1 PIE, -2,0%(DIFF%) and a 9-2 record
Westbrook: 33.4/7.3/6 in 36.8 MPG, 59.4 TS%, +9.3 netrtg, 17.6 PIE, -2,0%(DIFF%) and a 7-1 record

PS:
DIFF%= The opponent's overall FG% minus the league average.(DFG% - Opp FG%)
PIE= NBA's official PER.

[scrabbarista]

Giannis and the Bucks are 9-0 without Middleton including 7 straight games.
3 of those wins were against above .500% teams.
The Bucks are 5-1 without Giannis with only 1 team above .500% team(the only loss)

The Rockets are 6-4 without Westbrook. Just one team above .500%(Utah Jazz) among them.
Harden is 4-3 without Westbrook.
The Rockets are 2-1 without Harden and Westbrook. Including the game (Win) against Utah Jazz.

Lebron is 5-2 without AD.
3 Of those games (2-1) were against above .500% teams
The Lakers are 1-0 without both AD and Lebron. Blowout win against OKC.

Interesting stuff, but those are some awfully small sample sizes, and winning without a key player says more about the rest of the players on the roster as a group than it does about any individual player among them.

I'm pretty sure all seven of Harden's games without Westbrook came on back-to-backs. If not all of them, then almost all of them. Not exactly fair to use these numbers to knock or boost any individual player.

[KGtabake]

Still, i think that Tatum can win the ECPoTM.

James Harden

31.9 - 6.5 - 7.9 4.5 3PM 9-2 record

As always, when in doubt, the answer is "not James Harden." Flip Harden's and James' February's, and James still would've won.

So could westbrook. I can agree since the honor wasn't given to a young guy who could use it as a boost.
Same can be said about Giannis man.
We had that talk on Cs boards. Giannis would win again unless there's voters fatigue. And it happened.
Bucks went 11-1 and Giannis had a 27/17/6 month. By stats and wins alone, Giannis should have won this gain.
But we know he'll win the MVP and he wins almost every POTM every year.
League wanted to award a young and upcoming star and i agree since it isn't that uch important.

[Homer38]

Still, i think that Tatum can win the ECPoTM.

James Harden

31.9 - 6.5 - 7.9 4.5 3PM 9-2 record

As always, when in doubt, the answer is "not James Harden." Flip Harden's and James' February's, and James still would've won.

As the guy below me posted, Harden also beasted James in TS% and beat him in net rating, too. Sheesh.

Harden was not even the best player of his team in february.

[scrabbarista]

James Harden

31.9 - 6.5 - 7.9 4.5 3PM 9-2 record

As always, when in doubt, the answer is "not James Harden." Flip Harden's and James' February's, and James still would've won.

So could westbrook. I can agree since the honor wasn't given to a young guy who could use it as a boost.
Same can be said about Giannis man.
We had that talk on Cs boards. Giannis would win again unless there's voters fatigue. And it happened.
Bucks went 11-1 and Giannis had a 27/17/6 month. By stats and wins alone, Giannis should have won this gain.
But we know he'll win the MVP and he wins almost every POTM every year.
League wanted to award a young and upcoming star and i agree since it isn't that uch important.

Westbrook only played 8 games.

[KGtabake]

Westbrook only played 8 games.

Ya ok. And Giannis didn't play in the Bucks only defeat by the Pacers. So he had an undfeated month basically and he still lost.
So what?
Cmon man you know where i'm going with this.