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He averaged 20/9/8/2stl with good defence on decent nugget teams. Where does he rank all time among point gaurds?

You think he should be in there with Magic, Stockton and Kidd because he put up some good stats for a few seasons?

Good player, tho not a superstar. Injuries killed his career.

hourockman wrote:You think he should be in there with Magic, Stockton and Kidd because he put up some good stats for a few seasons?

no

Well, then, no one mentions him (aside from occasional threads asking why no one mentions him) because he wasn't a superstar and injuries killed his career. He also played for the Nuggets who didn't play defense on purpose, accounting for at least some of those boards and assists.

would he compare to anyone today?

some_rand wrote:would he compare to anyone today?

I'm not really good with comparisons, but here's a game recap in which he played. For one thing, you'd have to find a comparison that was all speed, because Fat was quick at only 6'3". Denver had him and Michael Adams for a time in the backcourt, they were nothing but speed. Doug Moe had no set offensive plays and Paul Westhead replaced him after previously coaching the all offense LMU team w/ Gathers and Kimble. He installed the same college system in Denver and they literally played NO defense (that was the team Skiles got 30 assists against). The Nuggs had a weird all-fastbreak style for yrs and Lever was, if not a superstar, tailor made for that system, although he did show a lot of the same skills with Portland before that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGr6CIRWkpo

hourockman wrote:

some_rand wrote:would he compare to anyone today?

I'm not really good with comparisons, but here's a game recap in which he played. For one thing, you'd have to find a comparison that was all speed, because Fat was quick at only 6'3". Denver had him and Michael Adams for a time in the backcourt, they were nothing but speed. Doug Moe had no set offensive plays and Paul Westhead replaced him after previously coaching the all offense LMU team w/ Gathers and Kimble. He installed the same college system in Denver and they literally played NO defense (that was the team Skiles got 30 assists against). The Nuggs had a weird all-fastbreak style for yrs and Lever was, if not a superstar, tailor made for that system, although he did show a lot of the same skills with Portland before that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGr6CIRWkpo

Actually Lever never played with Westhead. The Denver teams with Moe were pretty good on defense statistically, but they did run at one of the highest paces in the league every year. Lever's PER in his 20-9-8 season was 20.6, which is pretty good but not exactly superstar level. It puts him at 13th in the NBA for that season. His scoring was never efficient and the pace obviously inflated the per game assists and rebounds significantly.

I'm just looking at the stat sheet though. I was in elementary school when the guy played and there aren't exactly Fat Lever videos floating around everywhere. The fact that he was just the 13th best player in the NBA in his very best season 21 years ago and he only played at that level for 4 seasons probably answers the OP question.

I loved his game! He was quite flashy and always a danger for a triple double, although I acknowledge that pace has a lot to do with that. Those who are dismissing his credentials because of defense are doing him no justice, as he was a pretty good (although not great) defender, even earning All-Defensive 2nd Team honors once.

No matter what you say, though, a point guard averaging over 9 rebounds a game is quite unusual.

Who?

You have no idea what you have done.

Stay tuned.....................

GREATEST COMBO GUARD EVER!!!!!!!!

ok, maybe i am a little biased.

what do you want to know about my boy fat. i am a walking fat lever encyclopedia.

very underrated due to playing for the nuggets. obviously stats were a little inflated due to nuggets playing style, but he was still an amazing all-around talent.

great defense
very quick hands, lots of steals
quick first step
great nose for the ball
anticipated rebounds, chased down lots of loose balls but also would battle down low
good mid-range game, lots of runners, jumpers, off-balance shots in the lane
decent 3pt range but not part of his game
very smart player
quiet personality
was more of a combo guard than a pure pg, could play both positions equally
ripped up his knees twice (at his peak) back in the day when ACL injuries pretty much ended careers.

best name ever!!!!

and yes, westhead was never coach of the nuggets when lever was there. doug moe was the coach. just because the nuggets under moe had a fast pace doesnt mean lever was a great defender. the pressured the ball and lever was the main guy leading the pressure. he wasnt just a steals guy. he had to guard the better guard every night, whether it was jordan, drexler or magic. lever would have been a great defender on any team in the 80s. for the latter part of the decade only a few guards were better defenders: jordan, dumars, alvin robertson, moncrief, michael cooper to name a few.

as for the OP... lever was never considered among the greats in the game. he was always in that 2nd tier of guards during his 4 year prime, before he hurt his knee. he was not on the same level as the elite guards in the league like jordan, drexler, stockton, magic. what made him special was his ability to play at an all-star level or near all-star level at both pg and sg. very few players can do that.

^^^

talk about the right guy to ask

SoCAL24 wrote:^^^

talk about the right guy to ask

Told 'ya!!

who da F**** is fat lever

I'm not old enough to have seen Fat Lever play but Tommy Heinsohn often compares Rajon Rondo to him. I think it mostly has to do with the steals and rebounding. That's probably the only time I've ever heard reference to Fat.

i could see rondo as a decent comparison. i'd say rondo is probably a bit more athletic (as almost all players today are). fat was a couple inches taller (6'3") which gave him the ability to defend sgs a little better, especially since most shooting guards in the 80s werent as tall as they are now. as for offense, fat was probably a better shooter (at least mid-range) and rondo is probably a little better at getting to the rim.

Stats from Fat's best games


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0WEQmfbOaY[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKcJ5tayg2I[/youtube]