What happened to Steve Francis?

[MAQ]

obviously i disagree. francis had no idea how to play when he wasnt "the man." that's why he was completely neutered under larry brown. he tried to play the "right way" but he had no idea what to do. he passed when he was supposed to shoot, shot when he was supposed to pass. he had no idea how to make the simple play. both he and marbury were a mess because they couldnt comprehend and execute fundamental, team basketball. good basketball players learn to adjust, even as injuries start to set in.

This could be said about most star players though. They are all used to playing with the ball. In fact playing with the ball is the very reason they are special in the first place. Ask a star player to back off and become a role guy, and 90% of them turn into pumpkins. It was what happened to LeBron just a few months ago. It was what happened to Bosh for the entire year. Arenas, Vince, all the aging guys liek A.I., TMac, post knee Webber, just whoever. Once you take the ball out of their hands, you would be better off with aroleplayer comforable in that role than a guy who uised to be a star. Also BTW why I think our Dream Teams have always been badly miscontructed. Bunch of stars stacked up without the ball.

Team all that with the loss of the athleticism which had allowed him to do special things in Francis's case, and the result was inevitable.

I don't think it's just about playing with the ball in your hands though. It's being able to still be a good, useful basketball player when the ball isn't in your hands.

That 08 US team had a lot of guys who were used to playing with the ball in their hands, but the majority of those guys were still good useful basketball players without it.

Obviously star players are going to appear to be lesser players with a greatly reduced role, but you can still tell when a guy is useful inside of a smaller role. Francis never appeared to be useful in a smaller role.

Bosh was actually a great name for this example. The dude didn't become a pumpkin. He had bad nights here and there, but he was still a very good, useful basketball player. He was used to having the ball in his hands a lot, but he adapted to playing without and did well. He ate the Bulls up in that ECF without the ball in his hands.

[Gongxi]

Seems like BH8 is saying there's a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on here- that people are saying that the way Francis played was dumb only after Francis didn't have the athletic ability to play the game in his own way anymore. And he's saying "Hey, would you say the same thing about [insert player X] if they suddenly didn't have their athletic ability anymore and sucked?"

I don't agree with what he's saying at all, but at least make the effort to try to see what he's saying before you rush to assume someone's just dying to insult a favorite player of yours. Lay off the victim card, take your time and read what the dude is writing.

[BH8]

Seems like BH8 is saying there's a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on here- that people are saying that the way Francis played was dumb only after Francis didn't have the athletic ability to play the game in his own way anymore. And he's saying "Hey, would you say the same thing about [insert player X] if they suddenly didn't have their athletic ability anymore and sucked?"

I don't agree with what he's saying at all, but at least make the effort to try to see what he's saying before you rush to assume someone's just dying to insult a favorite player of yours. Lay off the victim card, take your time and read what the dude is writing.

Exactly - nobody was labeling Francis "dumb" when he could get by any player in the league and finish at will. Nobody was labeling Marbury "dumb" when he could get anywhere on the court that he wanted. Nobody was labeling Iverson "selfish" when he was MVP. The minute these guys lose a step, they get labeled "dumb", "selfish" and "chuckers" for the exact same things that made them "great".

I'm sorry, but when all is said and done, I believe that two of the fan favorites here that currently play for OKC and Chicago are very likely to be labeled in the same words now used to define the guys mentioned above.

[MAQ]

Seems like BH8 is saying there's a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on here- that people are saying that the way Francis played was dumb only after Francis didn't have the athletic ability to play the game in his own way anymore. And he's saying "Hey, would you say the same thing about [insert player X] if they suddenly didn't have their athletic ability anymore and sucked?"

I don't agree with what he's saying at all, but at least make the effort to try to see what he's saying before you rush to assume someone's just dying to insult a favorite player of yours. Lay off the victim card, take your time and read what the dude is writing.

I think folks understand what he's saying, they just don't agree...And neither do I. A bit early to assume no one is reading what he's writing.

Fact is, Francis's game wasn't conducive to winning basketball. It was a ton of one on one basketball. A lot of dribbling in place for show...He'd have a defender off balance and pull the ball back out just to get them off balance again. It wasn't about winning, it was about looking good. [/White Men Can't Jump]

[ManualRam]

First, earlier in this thread you put quotation marks around MVP, indicating that you believe Rose is not the MVP. Guess what buddy, he did win the MVP award.

Next, this is the second thread where I came into and you basically say a Bulls player sucks. This is a Stevie Franchise thread, why the constant need to bring up Rose? Who clearly had a great MVP winning, who led his team to the best record in the league.

It's not about Rose (or Westbrook or Marbury or Iverson). This is about Steve Francis declining due to a degenerative knee condition and this is about (almost) any player with the same condition becoming ineffective in this league, particularly when the player relies on explosiveness and athleticism.

There seems to be a pattern where fans label players as "great" for barreling into the lane and being able to finish when they're at their peak athletic ability, but once they lose a step and are unable to finish at the same rate, they are suddenly labeled as "dumb chuckers" for doing the exact same things. How many of the current "greats" (i.e. Westbrook, Rose, etc.) will be labeled "dumb", "selfish", "chuckers" (i.e. Iverson. Marbury, etc.) 5-7 years from today?

no. selfish players are selfish players. dumb chuckers are dumb chuckers. even in his prime when he was putting up numbers, steve francis was a selfish, dumb chucker. when he wasnt able to be a selfish, dumb chucker (under a more demanding coach) his game suffered.

[MAQ]

Seems like BH8 is saying there's a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on here- that people are saying that the way Francis played was dumb only after Francis didn't have the athletic ability to play the game in his own way anymore. And he's saying "Hey, would you say the same thing about [insert player X] if they suddenly didn't have their athletic ability anymore and sucked?"

I don't agree with what he's saying at all, but at least make the effort to try to see what he's saying before you rush to assume someone's just dying to insult a favorite player of yours. Lay off the victim card, take your time and read what the dude is writing.

Exactly - nobody was labeling Francis "dumb" when he could get by any player in the league and finish at will. Nobody was labeling Marbury "dumb" when he could get anywhere on the court that he wanted. Nobody was labeling Iverson "selfish" when he was MVP. The minute these guys lose a step, they get labeled "dumb", "selfish" and "chuckers" for the exact same things that made them "great".

No, plenty of people were labeling him dumb even when he was at his best. It's just that it wasn't such a massively accepted idea the way it is now. Folks cared much more about the highlights when he was able to provide them than they cared about his ability to play basketball smartly. Now, since he's not providing the highlights, it's going to be more accepted that his play was actually pretty dumb.

And everyone called Iverson selfish post his 2001 Finals appearance. Iverson was a hotbed...Many respected his heart and desire, but many of the same people and the rest of the guys that didn't respect that knew and said allowed that he was selfish.

I don't think you're trying to really grasp why they got those labels...You're just focused on the love that they used to get and the fact that they're no longer getting that love. I think it's safe to assume that you know this is a "What have you done for me lately" world. None of those guys have given us a reason to overlook their faults in a while...So focusing on their faults is what's happening at this stage of their (finished) careers.

[Gongxi]

Seems like BH8 is saying there's a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on here- that people are saying that the way Francis played was dumb only after Francis didn't have the athletic ability to play the game in his own way anymore. And he's saying "Hey, would you say the same thing about [insert player X] if they suddenly didn't have their athletic ability anymore and sucked?"

I don't agree with what he's saying at all, but at least make the effort to try to see what he's saying before you rush to assume someone's just dying to insult a favorite player of yours. Lay off the victim card, take your time and read what the dude is writing.

I think folks understand what he's saying, they just don't agree...And neither do I. A bit early to assume no one is reading what he's writing.

There's a dude that apparently thinks BH8 is motivated by Bulls hate. Safe to say he's not reading/understanding what's being written.

Anyway, Francis wasn't as efficient a scorer as the 'inefficient' Rose, and in fact was less efficient on less volume. So that right there tells you there's something else that separates them.

[MAQ]

Seems like BH8 is saying there's a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on here- that people are saying that the way Francis played was dumb only after Francis didn't have the athletic ability to play the game in his own way anymore. And he's saying "Hey, would you say the same thing about [insert player X] if they suddenly didn't have their athletic ability anymore and sucked?"

I don't agree with what he's saying at all, but at least make the effort to try to see what he's saying before you rush to assume someone's just dying to insult a favorite player of yours. Lay off the victim card, take your time and read what the dude is writing.

I think folks understand what he's saying, they just don't agree...And neither do I. A bit early to assume no one is reading what he's writing.

There's a dude that apparently thinks BH8 is motivated by Bulls hate. Safe to say he's not reading/understanding what's being written.

Come on man, you know the DRDF never sleeps. Those guys don't count.

[MigrainePatrol]

Check your messages. HMFFL

Abuse of power much mod? The man expressed an opinion and did not directly flame any poster.

[MAQ]

Check your messages. HMFFL

Abuse of power much mod? The man expressed an opinion and did not directly flame any poster.

It had absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand...All that comment was going to do was ruin this thread.

[BH8]

Anyway, Francis wasn't as efficient a scorer as the 'inefficient' Rose, and in fact was less efficient on less volume. So that right there tells you there's something else that separates them.

If you're trying to say that Prime Rose > Prime Francis, then I doubt anybody can seriously argue that. Rose is bigger and even more athletic which makes him the superior talent. Still, I don't think you can label him as an efficient scorer even though there's no doubt Francis was mostly less efficient.

[Blkbrd671]

idk, he went from dunking on everyone and dropping 20 to marbury status. sad i loved watching him

[Blame Rasho]

Check your messages. HMFFL

Abuse of power much mod? The man expressed an opinion and did not directly flame any poster.

He was suspended for another thread by the way before you get all critical over a mod editing a baiting post.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1131307

Classy thread don't you think?

[Don Draper]

I don't know BH8. In Houston, Francis was known as a chucker and a ball hog. He and Mobley were certainly entertaining but most people realized (especially once we drafted Yao Ming) that we weren't going anywhere with Francis running the show.

[Elden Payton]

This threads gone full (Please Use More Appropriate Word)...You never go full (Please Use More Appropriate Word).