Prime Vince Carter: ranked today

Juan Montoya · Post #61 » by **Juan Montoya** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:13 am

No annoying music... just game sounds, with all types of plays, not just dunks:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSY0XR-5yNM&hd=1[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dgri2uN7fk8[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU6_hgJVumc&hd=1[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6eoxn3br5U&hd=1[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5EcGJ0s2kE&hd=1[/youtube]

tigerman · Post #62 » by **tigerman** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:21 pm

One funny thing about this thread? Some people are actually giving complement to VC for improving the other facets of his game like playmaking and shooting. And yet there are still who would absolutely discredit him by saying he didn't care and just let his athleticism take over.

If vc didn't really work on his game as most of the haters say, he would been gone sooner after that "jumper's knee injury".

basketball royalty · Post #63 » by **basketball royalty** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:24 pm

The only thing I want to comment on is his peak actually being in 99/00 as opposed to his time in Jersey. He was the man on that team back then and playing like a true superstar with great explosiveness.

On Jersey he may have put up great numbers but he wasn't the sme player and didn't bring the intesity every night as he didn't have to be the man on that team.

Post #64 » by **Trader_Joe** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:33 pm

basketball royalty wrote:The only thing I want to comment on is his peak actually being in 99/00 as opposed to his time in Jersey. He was the man on that team back then and playing like a true superstar with great explosiveness.

On Jersey he may have put up great numbers but he wasn't the sme player and didn't bring the intesity every night as he didn't have to be the man on that team.

As far as I can tell he was a much more complete player on nj. One of the top passing and rebounding sg's in the nba. Much more into.the team concept than individual play. He also barely ever missed a game and enjoyed being a mentor to the youth. Maybe he wasn't as explosive on offense in nj, but he also didn't need to be with Kidd making his life easier and rj sharing the offensive load.

Juan Montoya · Post #65 » by **Juan Montoya** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:47 am

He got worse the bigger he got. He should have stayed in teh skinny-type body shape that he was at Toronto.

purplehaze89 · Post #66 » by **purplehaze89** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:32 am

Raptor fans don't want to admit it but Vince Carter peaked in New Jersey. That trade was a God-send for him career wise and cemented his status as an all around basketball player. He twice put up 20-5-5 in Jersey. One season with 25-6-5.

In Toronto Vince was a highlight reel. In Jersey he became an all-around basketball player. Case closed.

purplehaze89 · Post #67 » by **purplehaze89** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:32 am

Juan Montoya wrote:He got worse the bigger he got. He should have stayed in teh skinny-type body shape that he was at Toronto.

Except he went to Jersey and became an even better basketball player. :roll:

Post #68 » by **tsherkin** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:05 am

purplehaze89 wrote:In Toronto Vince was a highlight reel. In Jersey he became an all-around basketball player. Case closed.

Not really. He declined as a shooter, he wasn't any better a rebounder and he didn't magically become a better passer. He passed more, he was asked to handle the ball more, but the ability to do those things was present even when he was a Raptor. Statistically speaking, he had some of his best years (scoring average aside), that much is true, but those abilities were actually in his toolbox back as a Raptor. He was certainly, however, at his most consistent in New Jersey and the healthiest he'd ever been.

Tacoma · Post #69 » by **Tacoma** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:45 pm

It wasn't just in the 99/00 season that he was dominant - he did it for 3, maybe 4 had he not been injured, years in Toronto. And then another few years of same in NJ.

Vince appeared more dominant in Toronto because he was "the man" with the Raptors in the same way Lebron was the man in Cleveland. It was pretty well, just give the ball to Vince and let him do his thing. In Jersey, he was "the man" in NJ as well, but didn't have to be all the time with Kidd and Jefferson, so he contributed more in other ways.

The fact that we are arguing over which was his more dominant years that span a decade, just indicates that Vince is a better player over his career than most folks give him credit for. His career is HOF consideration worthy. IMO, had he stayed with Toronto and teamed up with Bosh, he would've had a better career and an even better chance at HOF.

Tacoma · Post #70 » by **Tacoma** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:49 pm

tsherkin wrote:
purplehaze89 wrote:In Toronto Vince was a highlight reel. In Jersey he became an all-around basketball player. Case closed.

Not really. He declined as a shooter, he wasn't any better a rebounder and he didn't magically become a better passer. He passed more, he was asked to handle the ball more, but the ability to do those things was present even when he was a Raptor. Statistically speaking, he had some of his best years (scoring average aside), that much is true, but those abilities were actually in his toolbox back as a Raptor. He was certainly, however, at his most consistent in New Jersey and the healthiest he'd ever been.

I don't think he declined as a shooter. His FG% was slightly poorer but that can be attributed him shooting more in NJ as he fell more in love with his jumpshot. In his early years, he was scoring more by driving to the basket which increases his percentages.

OvertimeNO · Post #71 » by **OvertimeNO** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:53 pm

Toronto Vince, IMO, was at least equal to if not better than NJ Vince. Don't underestimate the effect a HOF PG setting him up in NJ - as opposed to a string of PGs in TO that collectively only made one All-Star game - would have on his stats.

VC was never as fierce as he was in his second year, when he played like the league owed him something.

Birth of the Cool · Post #72 » by **Birth of the Cool** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:27 pm

I find the debate on what Vince's prime was (NJ vs Toronto) to be kinda interesting. I think a legitimate argument can be made in either case & I tend to lean towards the NJ Vince version but I won't fight much over a Toronto Vince premise.

Sadly, the true Prime (Super Saiyan - nerd alert) Vince was probably the brief time during his Australia Olympics gold run. I believe that angry (and frankly jerk attitude) version of Vince was the best basketball player on the planet during that time & once he got his gold & that chip on his shoulder came off the happy go lucky Vince could never muster the same lenthy/consistent intensity.

K1NG · Post #73 » by **K1NG** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:51 pm

Fred Williamson wrote:2nd best SG after Wade

Vinsane15 · Post #74 » by **Vinsane15** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:04 pm

Birth of the Cool wrote:I find the debate on what Vince's prime was (NJ vs Toronto) to be kinda interesting. I think a legitimate argument can be made in either case & I tend to lean towards the NJ Vince version but I won't fight much over a Toronto Vince premise.

Sadly, the true Prime (Super Saiyan - nerd alert) Vince was probably the brief time during his Australia Olympics gold run. I believe that angry (and frankly jerk attitude) version of Vince was the best basketball player on the planet during that time & once he got his gold & that chip on his shoulder came off the happy go lucky Vince could never muster the same lenthy/consistent intensity.

You have to keep in mind that he played against scrubs for the most part in the olympics. I think its the opposite.... Vince played his best when he was happy, like those times when he was jumping to block his teammates dunk for fun(uncle Cliffy). NJ was when he was truly having fun and happy the most. He was at his worst during his last two seasons in Toronto because he was angry at all the injuries + coaches, scrubs he had to play with....

1999-2000 Vince was his athletic peak, but not his basketball IQ and overall game peak. Take that seasons playoffs for example, VC struggled because the Knicks were triple teaming him and he didn't have that many moves to use to counter that. VC with the Nets was smarter, had more moves and would not get frustrated if things weren't going well. He was still athletic as hell too...

scoutshonor · Post #75 » by **scoutshonor** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:58 pm

Carter has always been an atrocious defender. Wade one of the games better defenders ever at SG

This translates into a less definable "heart" issue. Wade has no such issues and never has.

as for offensive stats...I'm sure the stats will show that carter was a better 3 point shooter...that's about it...Wade better at everything else...especially late (5 mins or less) in the game.

overpaid · Post #76 » by **overpaid** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:40 pm

Fred Williamson wrote:2nd best SG after Wade

Post #77 » by **tsherkin** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:06 pm

Tacoma wrote:I don't think he declined as a shooter. His FG% was slightly poorer but that can be attributed him shooting more in NJ as he fell more in love with his jumpshot. In his early years, he was scoring more by driving to the basket which increases his percentages.

His 3pt shooting was demonstrably worse than at his peak in Toronto, and his mid-range jumper was the same as it had been, while his FT shooting was comparable. I'd call that declining as a shooter. Not, you know, a LOT, but at least a little bit.

purplehaze89 · Post #78 » by **purplehaze89** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:32 pm

Tsherkin: I have no idea what you're talking about.

Just a cursory glance at his shooting statistics in Jersey vs. Toronto show a player that had about the same, if not better shooting numbers than in Toronto. The only number that dropped was 3 point percentage, but he made up for it by significantly increasing his free throw averages. Also for those who said he became a jump shooter in Jersey, his FTA attempts were at a career high for him while he was in New Jersey.

Birth of the Cool · Post #79 » by **Birth of the Cool** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:42 pm

scoutshonor wrote:Carter has always been an atrocious defender. Wade one of the games better defenders ever at SG

This translates into a less definable "heart" issue. Wade has no such issues and never has.

as for offensive stats...I'm sure the stats will show that carter was a better 3 point shooter...that's about it...Wade better at everything else...especially late (5 mins or less) in the game.

No he hasn't. Stats say otherwise. Vince has been a decent defender at his position (compared to his positional peers) for most of his career despite the label as a poor defender. If Vince was such a lousy defender, defensive minded coaches like Lawrence Frank & Stan Van Gundy would have exposed him in some slight way. Obviously Wade is a superior defender and the better player - I think most in this thread have agreed to that.

Post #80 » by **tsherkin** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:07 pm

purplehaze89 wrote:Tsherkin: I have no idea what you're talking about.

Just a cursory glance at his shooting statistics in Jersey vs. Toronto show a player that had about the same, if not better shooting numbers than in Toronto. The only number that dropped was 3 point percentage, but he made up for it by significantly increasing his free throw averages.

I didn't say he got worse as a player, I said he declined as a shooter, and he did. His DrawF rose because of the rules changes, so I don't know why you're bothering to mention that. Yeah, of course his FTAs were a career-high during that period; from 04-05 through 05-06, no one was allowed to touch or breathe on a player coming in from the wing. That has settled down some since then, but that was the apex of insanity for the new no-handcheck enforcement period.