Joe Johnson: Why Teams Like Hawks Are in Lose-Lose Situation

[Darain]

A team in the Hawks' situation can elevate itself to a championship level in one of two ways - one, by acquiring a superstar in free agency or through a trade (impossible for the Hawks, but a team like Houston has the assets to do so and it's a shame that no star can see how good of an opportunity it would be to go there).

The second way is to simply be lucky and catch the league in a down year, then make a semi-miraculous run. Indiana had a chance to do this with the rest of the East falling apart, and the Hawks had this kind of opportunity to a lesser extent as well.

Other than that, it serves no purpose if you're building for a championship.

They could also draft a star (Paul, Deron, Gay, or Roy) when they had the chance.

As of right now, they probably have to rebuild and break up their core. It's pretty obvious that as they are right now, they're perpetually stuck as a 2nd tier East team that will continually get bounced in the 1st or 2nd round...maybe the Conference Finals if they get lucky. They're not close to contending though.

Isn't that hind-sight bias?

[AnaheimRoyale]

I think it does the Hawks brand more good to keep enjoying these playoff runs while they can, seeing if they can add enough talent to keep making the 2nd round, and maybe luck out and make the conference finals one year. The Hawks can always rebuild later, and a franchise like theirs needs to help build their fanbase with success now, especially with their most impactful player being quite young (Horford). Obviously they're not a title team, but not

[The Infamous1]

I know im in the minority, but i think Chris Paul is way overrated.

I don't think the Hawks missed out on that much by not selecting Chris Paul. Chris Paul and Deron are not on the same level as Kidd and Payton. i know people are going to make excuses for Paul and Deron by saying lack of teammates and stuff, but Kidd and Payton didn't have many (or any) all star teammates themselves.

Paul isn't a guy who can close out games, i don't see him helping the Hawks close out games. Hawks still end up being a 2nd round playoff team with Paul.

Are u serious?

[G35]

A team in the Hawks' situation can elevate itself to a championship level in one of two ways - one, by acquiring a superstar in free agency or through a trade (impossible for the Hawks, but a team like Houston has the assets to do so and it's a shame that no star can see how good of an opportunity it would be to go there).

The second way is to simply be lucky and catch the league in a down year, then make a semi-miraculous run. Indiana had a chance to do this with the rest of the East falling apart, and the Hawks had this kind of opportunity to a lesser extent as well.

Other than that, it serves no purpose if you're building for a championship.

They could also draft a star (Paul, Deron, Gay, or Roy) when they had the chance.
As of right now, they probably have to rebuild and break up their core. It's pretty obvious that as they are right now, they're perpetually stuck as a 2nd tier East team that will continually get bounced in the 1st or 2nd round...maybe the Conference Finals if they get lucky. They're not close to contending though.

Memphis did fine without Gay in the playoff's, he is not a star.

Deron hasn't done anything with his franchise in NJ, not a star.

Brandon Roy broke down, and he wasn't a star also.

CP3 is the only possible star and he still is not enough.

Stars in the league Lebron, Kobe, Howard, Wade, Durant

That's it. If you don't have those players on your team then you need much depth like the Spurs have. The East was there for the taking. How Boston is in the ECF's is because they have a bunch of old stars that knew how to win.

Philly
Indy
Atlanta
New York
Washington
Utah
Portland
Golden State

These teams are all on the treadmill of mediocrity and I don't think it's the owners/GM's fault as much as people want to make it seem.

Why have the Spurs been the model organization? Because they drafted Tim Duncan/David Robinson. Period. I wish Popovich would have tried his coaching tactics on someone like Shaq, Dwight, Lebron, or Wade. The Spurs system works because Duncan allows it to work. He allowed the system to grown and be put into place. People forget that young NBA players also have huge egos and just because you draft a franchise player doesn't mean he wants to help your franchise. Players want to help themselves. It's the rare player (Tim Duncan) that puts the team in front of their desires.

Lebron (tired of Cleveland)
Shaq (tired of Orlando)
Dwight (tired of Orlando)
CP3 (tired of New Orleans)
Bosh (tired of Toronto)

Kevin Durant seems like he could be in the same vein as Duncan but we will see how he develops in the future. I remember when everyone said Dwyane Wade was a nice, young respectful, player that was ready to be the face of the NBA. Success changes players.

I don't blame Atlanta for signing Joe Johnson. What was the result? They have been in the playoff's the last few years. Yeah they never had a real chance at winning the title but they were in the mix. Look at Toronto after they lost Bosh; in the last two years they have won 45 games. And people think Bosh sucks! That's whats crazy is Bosh is actually very good. You lose your best player and that is what could happen.

And if it's so easy to to just sign FA's why haven't the Heat found someone that can fill their PG/C positions? Is Pat Riley an idiot to? What happened to players taking a paycut to win with the Heatles?

The second tier players don't want to go to rebuilding situations like Deron mentioned. Why go to a Milwaukee, Indiana, Phoenix, Philly, Sacramento when it's going to take 2-3 years for them to really contend? Those are maybe situations. I think players saw what CP3 did with the Clippers and they are like, "Yeah they were alright, but they are still mising some pieces." The best teams are stacked, Spurs and OKC. Heat just have the best players. Boston shouldn't even be there and they wouldn't be if they played in the West.

Teams are in a lose lose. If your best player comes up on FA in his prime, then 99% of the teams are going to want to resign him. I mean look at Dwight and what he has put Orlando through and they still want to keep him because they know what he brings. He's not going to bring them a championship by himself but he will keep them in the conversation. The grass is not always greener with someone new......

[monsterblock]

Memphis did fine without Gay in the playoff's, he is not a star.

Deron hasn't done anything with his franchise in NJ, not a star.

Brandon Roy broke down, and he wasn't a star also.

CP3 is the only possible star and he still is not enough.

Stars in the league Lebron, Kobe, Howard, Wade, Durant

+1

every other team is just trying to get by and hope that they can pull a "Detroit Pistons" and even the Pistons was just one and done.

[BR0D1E86]

The problem with Joe Johnson's contract is that they were bidding against nobody. The Bulls probably would have made a play for him, but the contract offer would have been close to what Boozer is making.

The stupidity of that contract is the lack of necessity of it for a guy who's not ever been even remotely close to an elite player.

[dtown8]

The problem with Joe Johnson's contract is that they were bidding against nobody. The Bulls probably would have made a play for him, but the contract offer would have been close to what Boozer is making.

The stupidity of that contract is the lack of necessity of it for a guy who's not ever been even remotely close to an elite player.

this is wrong, i know my Knicks did offer him a 5 year max, Joe did make a visit to NYC. i know Joe did visit Chicago, but i don't know if they made an offer.

[Nanogeek]

Everyone is on the record saying how much the Hawks overpaid to get Joe Johnson

But if you don't pay your players and you let them walk, fans complain that the team is too cheap.

I think everyone is fine with paying for Joe Johnson but you don't pay superstar money to someone that isn't a superstar. Understand?

Then why should a team be criticized so much for doing the next best thing which is maximizing the amount of success they can have without a superstar, whether if that's 2nd round or conference finals, or a hope to be that next exception to the rule ensemble cast that's once in a few decades?

If you are satisfied with overpaying players so you get to the second round and no further then why are you so up in arms? Be happy with that and move along.

[magicman123]

I know im in the minority, but i think Chris Paul is way overrated.

I don't think the Hawks missed out on that much by not selecting Chris Paul. Chris Paul and Deron are not on the same level as Kidd and Payton. i know people are going to make excuses for Paul and Deron by saying lack of teammates and stuff, but Kidd and Payton didn't have many (or any) all star teammates themselves.

Paul isn't a guy who can close out games, i don't see him helping the Hawks close out games. Hawks still end up being a 2nd round playoff team with Paul.

So you see no problem with the hawks missing out on 2 of the best point guards in the league for A 6th man averaging 10pts? You don't think the hawks are hurting for not having cp3 or deron but Marvin? Yes it's easy to look at the results now, but the hawks desperately needed a pg and passed on 2 great ones, that draft hurt

[-[Clippers]-]

Paul isn't a guy who can close out games

Have you even watched CP3 play? Total misinformed garbage here.

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Joe Johnson is not a superstar, wasn't one before this contract, and certainly does not deserve to be paid like one. The Hawks have continuously put themselves in this situation because they've always overpaid for mediocrity. Remember "Joe Contract"?

They've never grasped the importance of retaining cap flexibility and developing young talent that could become either franchise players or trade bait for actual superstars. To the Hawks, merely making the playoffs has always been enough, and that's why they've always been irrelevant for the most part.

[bledredwine]

lol what?

Chris Paul was a top 5 player in 08 and probably 09, no chance since. Since, better point guards have entered the league. If Chris Paul was a top 5 player, the Clippers would have been contenders instead of the Knicks of the West. Chris Paul's not a high impact player like James, Howard, Wade, Durant, Rose, etc. He just isn't. He cannot take over a game. One series last year, that's it. He is what he is, a very good point guard. Not a franchise player.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about when it comes to CP3.

LOL at mentioning Rose...CP3 this year was better than Rose has ever been, and this wasn't even CP3 at his best.

Chris Paul being a top 5 PG is the reason why the Clippers were the 5 seed and made it to the 2nd round instead of missing the playoffs.

He cannot take over a game? One series last year, that's it? Not a franchise player? You need to do some research on CP3, no joke. What you wrote is hugely inaccurate.

You're either blind and have never seen Rose play. CP3 is an average player in comparison in the playoffs.


Rose in the playoffs the last 3 years:
2009-2010 27 pts, 7 assists
2010-2011 27 pts, 8 assists
2011-2012 23 pts, 9 assists then Injured... Bulls were expected to creme Philly until he was injured (so much for the Bulls winning without Rose talk)

Chris Paul in the playoffs the last 3 years
2009-2010 17 pts, 10 assists
2010-2011 22 pts, 12 assists
2011-2012 18 pts, 8 assists (OUCH, and swept. Call that carrying a team? Rose at least can win a game by himself by carrying the team AKA Cavs a few years back. Hasn't been swept yet, even with Vinny del Negro it was a 7 game series against the Celtics a few years back.)

So on average, Rose averages 10 more points per playoff game and Paul 2.65 more assists. Yeah, edge Rose. I have yet to see teams center their defensive plans around Paul like they do Rose. He just simply isn't as much of an offensive threat. And if you really think that Paul can take over and especially score like Rose, then I don't know why I even bother.

And Rose averaged 20 and 6 his rookie year There's a reason that Rose already has an MVP and has made it further into the playoffs than Paul ever has. Paul = mr. first round exit. This year he was swept in the 2nd. And you call that a franchise player? No. Healthy, Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Dwight, Rose, even Westbrook are all higher impact players. Period. Get back to me when Paul actually carries his team in the playoffs. 2008 Paul was awesome and I was a fan, but since then, he's been ARGUABLY a top 5 point guard and has apparently kept his homer fans.

I won't mention how much Rose has kicked the crap out of Paul head to head over the last 2 years and how Derrick Rose is undefeated against Chris Paul over his entire career.... oh whoops, I just did!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wKwx27CYyQ[/youtube]

[Pimpwerx]

ATL had the option of not giving out an obnoxious contract and hoping to build a team competently like Indiana did. Indy should have cap space to sign that star playmaker they need now, and then they'll be formidable. ATL just gave out a terrible contract to a guy who's a fringe star, at best. They try going to him late in games, and it's just so apparent he's nowhere near the superstar that he's being paid like. PEACE.

[The Infamous1]

Derrick rose plays in the eastern conference, it's easier to advance in the playoffs then the west. That and he sucked in the playoffs last year

[G35]

Paul isn't a guy who can close out games

Have you even watched CP3 play? Total misinformed garbage here.

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Joe Johnson is not a superstar, wasn't one before this contract, and certainly does not deserve to be paid like one. The Hawks have continuously put themselves in this situation because they've always overpaid for mediocrity. Remember "Joe Contract"?

They've never grasped the importance of retaining cap flexibility and developing young talent that could become either franchise players or trade bait for actual superstars. To the Hawks, merely making the playoffs has always been enough, and that's why they've always been irrelevant for the most part.

Dude you were irrelelvant until a few months ago. All you do is criticize other teams and your team is the posterboard for sucking, and NOT paying players which is why they have only MADE the playoff's 8 times in 41 years.

If not for Stern gifting the Clippers CP3 you wouldn't even be here......

[HMFFL]

The problem with Joe Johnson's contract is that they were bidding against nobody. The Bulls probably would have made a play for him, but the contract offer would have been close to what Boozer is making.

The stupidity of that contract is the lack of necessity of it for a guy who's not ever been even remotely close to an elite player.

Nobody? New York pursued Joe Johnson and had a max offer on the table. At the time, Cuban wanted to work out a S&T, but only wanted to include garbage, and for Atlanta to basically hand Joe Johnson over for free.

[sixeleven]

I know im in the minority, but i think Chris Paul is way overrated.

I don't think the Hawks missed out on that much by not selecting Chris Paul. Chris Paul and Deron are not on the same level as Kidd and Payton. i know people are going to make excuses for Paul and Deron by saying lack of teammates and stuff, but Kidd and Payton didn't have many (or any) all star teammates themselves.

Paul isn't a guy who can close out games, i don't see him helping the Hawks close out games. Hawks still end up being a 2nd round playoff team with Paul.

So you see no problem with the hawks missing out on 2 of the best point guards in the league for A 6th man averaging 10pts? You don't think the hawks are hurting for not having cp3 or deron but Marvin? Yes it's easy to look at the results now, but the hawks desperately needed a pg and passed on 2 great ones, that draft hurt

yep, no problem at all. Hawks would have never been able to get Horford with Paul.

Chris Paul, Joe, and Josh is better than Horford, Joe and Josh, but Paul, Joe and Josh still can't get out of the 2nd round. so what is the point.

[HMFFL]

The drafted poorly also, they should have drafted CP but didn't and it's still hurting them in a way.To me the main problem with the Hawks is how they're built. Too many guys on that team from their top 3 or 5 guys want to be the man. They chase the stats, you can clearly see it in their play. Until they balance that team, winning will be a problem.

The point is far from being the problem on the team at the present time. I do agree that some of the players are chasing stats, but it's not even three of them, and the main one is Josh Smith. Jeff Teague needs more touches, he has confident issues at times, so I would prefer him to have more freedom. Josh Smith seems to be the Hawk that has the more freedom, and mainly because his personality dominates everybody, and he dedicates how others should play.

[HMFFL]

Whether the Hawks signed Joe Johnson to a $120 million contract or not, they're not going to contend for a championship. They need major changes to the roster. Team should have built around Horford while they had the chance.

Major changes? The problem with the starting lineup is that they need more size inside. Some prefer Horford to be the starting 4, I doubt Josh Smith is going to receive a max contract from the team, so that is one reason why they've been shopping him around. They realize the changes that need to be made, but no one wants Marvin Williams contract, and there are no big men available that can secure the 5 spot. The starting position that is the biggest problem is the 3 spot, followed by figuring out what to do with Horford and Smith, but we'll find out after next season when Josh Smith becomes a free agent.

[sixeleven]

ATL had the option of not giving out an obnoxious contract and hoping to build a team competently like Indiana did. Indy should have cap space to sign that star playmaker they need now, and then they'll be formidable. ATL just gave out a terrible contract to a guy who's a fringe star, at best. They try going to him late in games, and it's just so apparent he's nowhere near the superstar that he's being paid like. PEACE.

this is all realgm hyperbole.

if Joe walked he would have went to Chicago to join Rose and Deng.

and if Atlanta offered a contract that was 30 million less, it still wouldn't allow the Hawks to add one more player (or center).

your point is just dumb and useless because a cheaper contract for Joe doesn't change the Hawks cap situation.

[bledredwine]

Paul isn't a guy who can close out games

Have you even watched CP3 play? Total misinformed garbage here.

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Is that why Chris Paul was swept this year? You'd think that if he's a superstar, he could at least pull off one win? Or that he'd score more than 17 points 8 assists if his team needed him to win 4 games in a row? Yeah, he can obviously be relied on to carry a team, he can obviously close. That's why the Clippers were swept..... even with Griffin? It's not like he doesn't have players to assist to.

Chris Paul is a superstar just as much as Chris Bosh is. He's been outplayed this year's playoffs by Westbrook, Parker, Rondo, and the little time Rose played, he made a significantly bigger impact (Bulls fell over without him).

Westbrook (easily had the best year of all PG's) is so far ahead of Paul right now it's not even funny, and I don't like Westbrook. I'm just stating the truth.