RealGM

NOTE: ignore the lebron/kobe/jordan talk. This post was made at a time where there were a lot of "GOAT" threads going around.

Anyway; I'm here to debunk the lie when someone says "This era is harder, more athletic, etc" without any argument whatsoever. Even though it's a lot of words, if you want to read the truth, you'll read this post. If not, you can be in denial.

After Michael Jordan retired, the league wanted to give the game more scoring action because big men were allowed to wait around in the lane, making it hard for perimeter players to score. It's very similar to when baseball needed something new, and they made the baseball more compact (few people know this). The home run record was then shattered 3 years in a row by Mcguire, Sosa, and Bonds.

Anyway, to the point; in 1999 (coincidentally? after MJ retired), and the viewers were at an all-time low, the league instilled new rules: http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/d ... .defenses/

namely to ban Hand checking so that when an offensive player posted up, the defender couldn't push back or even have their hand on them. And also, the 3 second violation on both ends of the court in the lane. This way, big men couldn't wait for perimeter players or back down players for several seconds to score.

In the year 2000, even easier defensive rules: http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html
No contact with either hands or forearms by defenders except in the frontcourt below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may use his forearm only.
• Neither the offensive player nor the defender will be allowed to dislodge or displace a player who has legally obtained a position.
• Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from point A to Point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player.
• Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding “chucking” or “wrapping up” is prohibited.

Is it a coincidence that now we have high scoring perimeter players and literally no high scoring big men? Isn't that strange in an era that's "more athletic" (lol), there are no good big men?

No, and here's proof. The years of 1999-2000 and 2000-2001, perimeter players scoring shot up. (i'm going to use per 36 minutes stats so you guys can't argue minutes).

Grant Hill's average, who had been in the league for years, mysteriously shot up by 4 PPG. Tracy Mcgrady shot up by 3 PPG (understandable, 3rd year is biggest year for improvement), but then in his 4th year, shot up by 7 PPG. Kobe Bryant? Was already on his 4th and then 5th year and improved by 2 PPG in 1999 and then another 4 PPG on top of that in 2000, meaning 6 per 36 total over the 2 years. As you all should know, it's unusual to improve much (per 36) beyond the 3rd year. 3rd year is typically when you get an idea of a player's averages. The rule changes caused these spikes in scoring.

The only other player to have the scoring title other than Michael Jordan was Shaq and David Robinson (one year a piece when MJ retired). The leading scorers were paint players.

After the rule changes? The scoring charts have been dominated by perimeter players. In 1999, after Allen Iverson, Grant Hill was the dominating perimeter player scorer. Unfortunatley, he had terrible injuries but somehow remains relevant at age 39.

Steve Nash had already had 3 years in the league, and between the 2 years (1999-2001), his PPG shot up by 8 PPG per 36. How can you possibly explain all of this? Coincidence? No, rule changes. Several coaches and players have all testified to this, and even Kobe has said that the older rules were much more difficult. All of these player's scoring spikes happened in the same years, 1999 through 2001, when the rule changes took place

On top of that,

all of your MVPs from this era.... Shaquille O'Neal, Steve Nash, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Tim Duncan, Kobe.... they were not even considered superstars with the exception of Shaq. How do you explain that if they're so much better? And yet Steve Nash, Kobe, Tim Duncan, Grant Hill, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen were your stars for the 2000's at the top of the league, and all remain relevant even with such old age to this day.

Are you trying to tell me that these guys are athletic? That old Kobe, one of the league's best scorers, is more athletic than Jordan, Drexler? That Tim Duncan is athletic, Grant Hill at age 39? See why this logic is flawed? Why would Jordan shatter all oldest scoring records, putting in 55 at age 39 and averaging 20 PPG (5 less than Kobe's average) with Kobe's typical FG%? This was after 2 retirements. I'd love to see Lebron average only 7 points less 11 years from now!

So, with all of this proof, just know that when you spew out words like "Oh, this era's better"... well sorry, but there's too much proof of just the opposite. Explain the perimeter players dominating the scoring charts only after the rule changes in 1999 even though most of them already had 3 or more years in the league, explain how MJ was still a star at age 39, how at age 33 Dikembe Mutumbo had more rebounds than Shaq, KG, and Tim Duncan..... how in 2000 Jerry Stackhouse led the league in scoring with 29.8 PPG, more than Lebron has ever had, after averaging 16-17 PPG every year before 1999 when rule changes took effect, even though he had been in the league for several years? Anyway, I can literally go on and on because there's so much evidence of cross-era players but this post is long enough. Aside from this post, read all of the testimonials from coaches and players directly who spoke of the last era, how MJ would average 45 in his prime, etc. Reguarding GOAT conversation... there's always current hype, first Grant Hill was the next Jordan, then Kobe, now Lebron's receiving stupid GOAT talk and the same would have happened to KD had he won the chip this year.

On top of this all, the average amount of field goal attempts shot up by 4 after the 1999 NBA season, from 78.2 to 82.1, when the rule changes for defending perimeter players changed.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/stats.html

I have yet to hear a player cross era say that Lebron's the best. However, several, including Shaq, Robbert Horry, Gary Payton, Kobe, Artest, Phil Jackson, to name a few.... have called MJ by far the best. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09sCTRPLiBM[/youtube]



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09sCTRPLiBM[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv37ykpYk84[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBh3jf4mOOk[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp2QBmFmwAM[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7U8_LoyxSM&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adusCcba89o[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMZ1lUz9rI[/youtube]

BTW<

feel free to include any related discussions esp. silly "GOAT" talk with Kobe Lebron KD whoever, or comparing these guys with Magic, the greatness of Kareem,

because I've got my belt strapped today and I'm ready to rock.

1978-79
• Number of referees officiating game increased from two to three.
• Rolling the ball on the floor from out of bounds now allowed; penalty of loss of possession eliminated.
• Technical foul imposed on team instead of warning for first illegal defense and two technical fouls imposed for second and all subsequent violations. Illegal defense rules modified.
• Clarification added instructing players and coaches to proceed directly to dressing rooms, without pause or delay, following halftime. Previous rule only stated at conclusion of game.
• Clarification added to prohibit hand-checking through “rigid enforcement” of rule allowing a defensive player to retain contact with his opponent so long as he does not impede his opponent’s progress.

1994-95• Shortened the three-point line (22 feet in the corners extending to 23 feet, nine inches at the top of the key) to a uniform 22 feet around the basket.
• Awarded three foul shots for any player fouled while attempting a three-point field goal.
• Any player who leaves the bench during a fight automatically suspended for a minimum of one game and fined a maximum of $20,000; in addition to losing 1/82nd of his salary for each game, he is suspended.
• Any player who commits two flagrant fouls in one game will be ejected.
• Hand-checking eliminated from the end line in the backcourt to the opposite foul line.• Technical foul fines increased to $500 each. Formerly, the fines were $100 for the first technical and $150 for the second.
• “Clear path” rule changed to include contact in the backcourt. If a defender, grabs a player when the player has a clear path to the basket on a breakaway, two foul shots will be awarded.

1997-98
• The three-point line, 22 feet from the basket, lengthened to its original distance of 23 feet, nine inches, except in the corners, where the distance remained 22 feet.
• A defender will not be permitted to use his forearm to impede the progress of an offensive player who is facing the basket in the frontcourt.• A player will not be allowed to call timeout (regular or 20-second) if both of his feet are in the air and any part of his body has broken the vertical plane of the boundary line.
• The “no-charge area,” formerly a two-by-six foot box where an offensive foul is not called if contact is made with a secondary defensive player who has established a defensive position, will be expanded to the area consisting of a half circle with a four-foot radius measured from the middle of the goal.
• If two offensive players on the weak side are positioned above the top-of-the-circle extended, one of the two defenders may occupy any area on the weak side, except that he may not enter the inside lane other than to: aggressively double-team the ball, or defend an offensive player(s) who is open because of a double-team on the ball, or as a normal reaction to a “ball fake.” Following a “ball fake,” the defender must immediately return to a legal position or double-team on the ball.
Previously, if two offensive players are positioned above either, the tip-of-circle extended on the strong side or weak side of the court, both defenders had to be positioned above the free throw line.

all of your MVPs from this era.... Shaquille O'Neal, Steve Nash, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Tim Duncan, Kobe.... they were not even considered superstars with the exception of Shaq. How do you explain that if they're so much better? And yet Steve Nash, Kobe, Tim Duncan, Grant Hill, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen all remain relevant even with such old age.

Duncan was a star from the moment he set foot on an NBA court, and the rest were teenagers. The only thing you're armed with is water pistols.

bledredwine wrote:
all of your MVPs from this era.... Shaquille O'Neal, Steve Nash, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Tim Duncan, Kobe.... they were not even considered superstars with the exception of Shaq. How do you explain that if they're so much better?

Garnett was a 21/10/4 guy and was definitely considered a superstar. Nash wouldn't really become Nash until he went to Phoenix. Pierce was literally a rookie in 99. Duncan was an All NBA First Teamer Finals MVP so yeah he was dominating back then too. Kobe and McGrady were 20 and 19 respectively when the 99 season ended. The league did used to be tougher but the players that you're citing are certainly not examples of that.

Lakerfan17 wrote:

1978-79
• Number of referees officiating game increased from two to three.
• Rolling the ball on the floor from out of bounds now allowed; penalty of loss of possession eliminated.
• Technical foul imposed on team instead of warning for first illegal defense and two technical fouls imposed for second and all subsequent violations. Illegal defense rules modified.
• Clarification added instructing players and coaches to proceed directly to dressing rooms, without pause or delay, following halftime. Previous rule only stated at conclusion of game.
• Clarification added to prohibit hand-checking through “rigid enforcement” of rule allowing a defensive player to retain contact with his opponent so long as he does not impede his opponent’s progress.

1994-95• Shortened the three-point line (22 feet in the corners extending to 23 feet, nine inches at the top of the key) to a uniform 22 feet around the basket.
• Awarded three foul shots for any player fouled while attempting a three-point field goal.
• Any player who leaves the bench during a fight automatically suspended for a minimum of one game and fined a maximum of $20,000; in addition to losing 1/82nd of his salary for each game, he is suspended.
• Any player who commits two flagrant fouls in one game will be ejected.
• Hand-checking eliminated from the end line in the backcourt to the opposite foul line.• Technical foul fines increased to $500 each. Formerly, the fines were $100 for the first technical and $150 for the second.
• “Clear path” rule changed to include contact in the backcourt. If a defender, grabs a player when the player has a clear path to the basket on a breakaway, two foul shots will be awarded.

1997-98
• The three-point line, 22 feet from the basket, lengthened to its original distance of 23 feet, nine inches, except in the corners, where the distance remained 22 feet.
• A defender will not be permitted to use his forearm to impede the progress of an offensive player who is facing the basket in the frontcourt.• A player will not be allowed to call timeout (regular or 20-second) if both of his feet are in the air and any part of his body has broken the vertical plane of the boundary line.
• The “no-charge area,” formerly a two-by-six foot box where an offensive foul is not called if contact is made with a secondary defensive player who has established a defensive position, will be expanded to the area consisting of a half circle with a four-foot radius measured from the middle of the goal.
• If two offensive players on the weak side are positioned above the top-of-the-circle extended, one of the two defenders may occupy any area on the weak side, except that he may not enter the inside lane other than to: aggressively double-team the ball, or defend an offensive player(s) who is open because of a double-team on the ball, or as a normal reaction to a “ball fake.” Following a “ball fake,” the defender must immediately return to a legal position or double-team on the ball.
Previously, if two offensive players are positioned above either, the tip-of-circle extended on the strong side or weak side of the court, both defenders had to be positioned above the free throw line.

all of your MVPs from this era.... Shaquille O'Neal, Steve Nash, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Tim Duncan, Kobe.... they were not even considered superstars with the exception of Shaq. How do you explain that if they're so much better? And yet Steve Nash, Kobe, Tim Duncan, Grant Hill, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen all remain relevant even with such old age.

Duncan was a star from the moment he set foot on an NBA court, and the rest were teenagers. The only thing you're armed with is water pistols.

Thanks, sounds like you're butthurt and have nothing to say. I'm waiting for discussion, not anger reactions.

Can you give me counter examples? Or explain the spikes in scoring?

Or why David Robinson was considered better than Tim Duncan? Shaq the most dominant player we've seen since MJ? Who got dominated by Hakeem? Why your (probably idol) called MJ the greatest player of all time? Why Grant Hill scored 25 PPG and Stackhouse 30 after rule changes?

Right, you can't. Great contribution though, you showed me a whole lot that I didn't know before

We've had several coaches, including Phil Jackson who coached both Kobe and Jordan say Jordan would average 45 in today's era. Larry Brown as well. Kobe even called those defense more difficult and said he wished they'd go back to that.

Care to give me just one or two examples of an actual NBA player who's been through both eras and claims the new defenses are more difficult? You've got nothing.

In case you haven't noticed by now,

this is geared towards perimeter players and the rule changes.

Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett are both awesome, I'm not denying that.

But they definitely didn't dominate the older era. And they definitely were at the very top of the new era. So there seems to be some contradiction here if this so called new era is better? Why were these guys on the very top for so long and there were many BETTER players back then? I'm not saying they weren't good.

But as for perimeter scoring, it's so obvious. There's so much evidence everywhere that the rule changes spiked scoring.

Tim Duncan was worse than Robinson for maybe his rookie season. And Shaq was 22 when he lost to Hakeem in the finals. Grant Hill was entering his prime that season. Stackhouse took nearly 7 more shot attempts per game that season than he did the previous season and you can see his scoring dips back down after that season, when he starts taking less shots again. And a player (Kobe) increasing his scoring average when he is 21 isn't really surprising.

BattleTested wrote:

bledredwine wrote:
all of your MVPs from this era.... Shaquille O'Neal, Steve Nash, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Tim Duncan, Kobe.... they were not even considered superstars with the exception of Shaq. How do you explain that if they're so much better?

Garnett was a 21/10/4 guy and was definitely considered a superstar. Nash wouldn't really become Nash until he went to Phoenix. Pierce was literally a rookie in 99. Duncan was an All NBA First Teamer Finals MVP so yeah he was dominating back then too. Kobe and McGrady were 20 and 19 respectively when the 99 season ended. The league did used to be tougher but the players that you're citing are certainly not examples of that.

No, up until 1999, Garnett wasn't anywhere near a superstar.

Only after the Jordan era, beginning 1999 did he become one. Even in his 3rd year (when players typically show what they average), he had 17 PPG per 36. There were many better players in the league. And he dominated the new era.

If he was able to compete at the very highest level in the new era, and these guys are so much more athletic,

shouldn't he have beasted in 1998? Nope, because the athleticism and "faster" newer era talk is just a MYTH. There are you tube vids on how Michael Jordan's sprint was much faster than Kobe's, and slightly faster than Lebron's.

Robbert Horry talked about how strong MJ was. Are you going to tell me that Karl Malone and Alonzo weren't as ripped/strong as anybody in the league today? MJ wasn't as athletic as Kobe when he had a more athletic fadeaway at age 38 than Kobe does now?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3et6qAsOxo[/youtube]

Chocobanana wrote:Tim Duncan was worse than Robinson for maybe his rookie season. And Shaq was 22 when he lost to Hakeem in the finals. Grant Hill was entering his prime that season. Stackhouse took nearly 7 more shot attempts per game that season than he did the previous season and you can see his scoring dips back down after that season, when he starts taking less shots again. And a player (Kobe) increasing his scoring average when he is 21 isn't really surprising.

Good points (first poster to do that, so respect). However, Kobe had been in the league for a while,

and it IS strange.... because look at his 36 minute stats. His first 4 years:

he has
17.6 PP36
21.4 PP36
18.9 PP36
21.2 PP36
then, year 1999 (rule changes effect) - 25.1 PP36! Shouldn't he have been improving every year? Why would he improve and hover, and then all of a sudden in his 5th year score 4 more PPG?

It's because this happens with most perimeter players that year.... and its VERY odd for a player to randomly have a spike like that. It would have made sense if Kobe kept improving, but no... he was gradually improving and then his PPG shot up that year. The explanation? The rule changes to the game. Kobe himself said those defenses were more difficult in the 2004 olympics. You can find the video if you search for it.

Jerry Stackhouse took 7 more shots per game for a reason; it was easier to score. You take more shots if it's easier to create. Why else would he take that many more shots? And despite taking 7 more shots, he maintained his consistent FG%..... His 3 PT% also shot up big time.

He was average in the MJ era, and one of the league's best scorers in the modern league. Why? Rule changes. The most he could score the first 6 years of his career pre-rule changes was 18-19 PPG.

And it's not just him! This applies to the vast majority of perimeter players. It doesn't get more obvious. This is to shed light for those of you,

that way either you know now or I know you're in denial. Also re: Robinson.... he was better than Timmy until he had injury problems at age 33.

And about Shaq, it's accepted by most that Hakeems the best player. He won 2 championships when MJ retired. He's considered the only competition for GOAT defender after Bill Russell. Shaq came off of one of his best years. Hakeem was just a beast defender and frustrated the crap out of Shaq. Even the TNT basketball players Webb, Kenny, Kerr, Chuck, and Smith talked about how Shaq had no answer for Hakeem.

He was the better player. Shaq dominated the new era. This is at the very least, proof that this new era is no more competitive.... according to some on this board, any players should dominate back then, which is just stupid. Here's proof.

And this proves just the opposite; players who were lesser back then had success and (barring injuries and extreme old age) good players from back then remained relevant into the new era.

The 90's was a watered down expansion era where the bulls had no Competetion for the entire decade. They stacked their team in the fashion of the great teams of the 80's but the difference between those teams And the bulls they actually had other Competetion on their level. The bulls had no one.

Today is much better talent wise from top to bottom and better defensively.

This is the list of guards/small forwards who shot over 50% and had 20+ PPG during MJ's era(1985-1998).

Michael Jordan - 6 times
Chris Mullen - 6 times
Adrian Dantley - 4 times
Kiki Vandewedge - 4 times
Reggie Miller - 3 times
James Worthy - 3 times
Alex English - 3 times
Dale Ellis - 3 times
Magic Johnson - 2 times
Penny Hardaway - 2 times
Kevin Johnson - 2 times
Clyde Drexler - 2 times
Cedric Ceballos - 2 times
Mark Aguirre - 2 times
Gary Payton - once
Byron Scott - once
Rolando Blackman - once
Walter Davis - once
Jeff Hornacek - once
Otis Birdsong - once
Jeff Malone - once
George Gervin - once
Drazen Petrovic - once
Reggie Lewis - once
Derek Smith - once
Scottie Pippen - once



And here is the list of guards/small forwards who shot over 50% and had 20+ PPG during the post-Lockout era(2000-2010).

Lebron James - once
Chris Paul - once
Tony Parker - once
Monta Ellis - once
Shawn Marion - once


So in MJ's era it was done 56 times by 26 different players.

In the last 11 years, it has been done only 5 times by 5 different players.

/thread

Yeah, the average amount of field goal attempts shot up by 4 after the 1999 NBA season, from 78.2 to 82.1, when the rule changes for defending perimeter players changed.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/stats.html

I think the mid-2000s were some of the best years of basketball talent-wise though.

The Infamous1 wrote:This is the list of guards/small forwards who shot over 50% and had 20+ PPG during MJ's era(1985-1998).

Michael Jordan - 6 times
Chris Mullen - 6 times
Adrian Dantley - 4 times
Kiki Vandewedge - 4 times
Reggie Miller - 3 times
James Worthy - 3 times
Alex English - 3 times
Dale Ellis - 3 times
Magic Johnson - 2 times
Penny Hardaway - 2 times
Kevin Johnson - 2 times
Clyde Drexler - 2 times
Cedric Ceballos - 2 times
Mark Aguirre - 2 times
Gary Payton - once
Byron Scott - once
Rolando Blackman - once
Walter Davis - once
Jeff Hornacek - once
Otis Birdsong - once
Jeff Malone - once
George Gervin - once
Drazen Petrovic - once
Reggie Lewis - once
Derek Smith - once
Scottie Pippen - once



And here is the list of guards/small forwards who shot over 50% and had 20+ PPG during the post-Lockout era(2000-2010).

Lebron James - once
Chris Paul - once
Tony Parker - once
Monta Ellis - once
Shawn Marion - once


So in MJ's era it was done 56 times by 26 different players.

In the last 11 years, it has been done only 5 times by 5 different players.

1. You literally just gave me a BS list. Lebron James has done it 3 times, for the record. You cherry picked that to the point where you're including several forwards and big men on the first list, and none on the 2nd list. How can you include James Worthy but not Tim Duncan on the 2nd list, for example.... Basically, you provided a false list that you made up.

2. Early to mid 80's defenses were AWEFUL.

I'm talking about the 90's. That's the era we're discussing.

Give me a list of that, and I'll believe you. But you're talking about a very weak era defensively. The greatest players of all time literally change the games rules (Wilt/MJ namely, just like Babe Ruth for baseball).

It wasn't until teams started setting their entire defenses against MJ that defenses became more intense. The Pistons were the first to do this, called it the "Jordan rules". Look it up. He scored 63 against the Celtics when they were considered (still) maybe the great team assembled of all time, including 4 HOF'ers in the starting line-up.

Anyway, yeah go ahead and give me the 90s stats for that.

Now I'm talking about perimeter players. So try small forwards, shooting guards, and point guards.

3. You'll notice the perimeter players of this decade score way more PPG generally, though of course none compare to MJ who was on another tier. The new era also take more perimeter shots because they have zone defenses, aka less double teams and NO HANDCHECKING. Wouldn't you shoot more perimeter shots if you weren't being posted up by a defender continually? No hand checking = significantly more space to get your shot off Several players have talked about how difficult it was when you had a hand in your face and someone pushing back. Before those rules, players could literally push you back if you posted up.

So of course the FG% will be lower. MJ had lower FG% as well coming back, but still got his 20 PPG at age 38 and shattered oldest player scoring records, including a 55 PT game at age 39.

Chocobanana wrote:Yeah, the average amount of field goal attempts shot up by 4 after the 1999 NBA season, from 78.2 to 82.1, when the rule changes for defending perimeter players changed.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/stats.html

I think the mid-2000s were some of the best years of basketball talent-wise though.

See? Respect for actually looking at things through an unbiased lens. The rest of these guys are in denial.

I actually agree with you that the mid 2000s were a lot of fun because you've got AI, Vince, T-Mac, Kobe, etc all playing really well.

But it is obvious that perimeter scoring was made easier due to the lack of center scoring (3 sec rules on both sides), and random spikes in scoring. The cross era lack of dominance on behalf of the newer era players who's dominated the newer era, etc.

It's just fibs.

But that 4 more FGA stat you just gave, that's solid proof. How does everyone care to explain that? Can't be the rule changes, right?

I also pose this question for you guys:

Why would the NBA enforce these rule changes?

What is the function/purpose of:
No hand checking?
3 second violation on both ends of the floor.....

and

Why did it happen the year after MJ retired, when the league was at an all-time low attendance?

You'll realize, if you admit it or not.... it was to make the game more flashy and to give a better chance for players to score.

Before, the big men were your rooks, and the perimeter players your pawns... now the big men are your pawns and perimeter players are your rooks.

After the rule changes, the game did become more fun to watch purely from a scoring/perimeter perspective. But not defensively. And the tick-tacky fouls are annoying,

but all of the AI/Kobe/T-Mac/Hill/Stackhouse/Carter bursts in scoring? You can thank the rules for making that show possible, and these rules indeed helped the NBA turn attendance around.

Why did big men dominate the 90s and perimeter players dominate the 00s? Are you telling me that human offspring failed to produce taller and stronger people recently? Is it all of the mcdonalds and HFCS we're eating? Wouldn't that make the newer era weaker anyway? Rule changes = your explanation.

bledredwine wrote:

Chocobanana wrote:Yeah, the average amount of field goal attempts shot up by 4 after the 1999 NBA season, from 78.2 to 82.1, when the rule changes for defending perimeter players changed.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/stats.html

I think the mid-2000s were some of the best years of basketball talent-wise though.

See? Respect for actually looking at things through an unbiased lens. The rest of these guys are in denial.

I actually agree with you that the mid 2000s were a lot of fun because you've got AI, Vince, T-Mac, Kobe, etc all playing really well.

But it is obvious that perimeter scoring was made easier due to the lack of center scoring (3 sec rules on both sides), and random spikes in scoring. The cross era lack of dominance on behalf of the newer era players who's dominated the newer era, etc.

It's just fibs.

But that 4 more FGA stat you just gave, that's solid proof. How does everyone care to explain that? Can't be the rule changes, right?

That was after a lockout season when they played just horrible, weak basketball without much energy.
Why did it go back to 80.6 in 00-01 and stayed just around 80 afterwards?
And arguing with those numbers just reveals some logical faults.
In 94-95 they introduced the first handchecking rules - what happened? FGAs went down from 84.4 to 81.5, 80.2 etc.
In 04-05 they even strenghtened these rules - what happened? FGAs did not increase.
Perimeter shooting exploded after they introduced these rules in the 94-95 (9.9 to 15.3, 16.0, 16.8) season and it hasn't changed much since.

Mr Grant Hill wrote:

bledredwine wrote:

Chocobanana wrote:Yeah, the average amount of field goal attempts shot up by 4 after the 1999 NBA season, from 78.2 to 82.1, when the rule changes for defending perimeter players changed.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/stats.html

I think the mid-2000s were some of the best years of basketball talent-wise though.

See? Respect for actually looking at things through an unbiased lens. The rest of these guys are in denial.

I actually agree with you that the mid 2000s were a lot of fun because you've got AI, Vince, T-Mac, Kobe, etc all playing really well.

But it is obvious that perimeter scoring was made easier due to the lack of center scoring (3 sec rules on both sides), and random spikes in scoring. The cross era lack of dominance on behalf of the newer era players who's dominated the newer era, etc.

It's just fibs.

But that 4 more FGA stat you just gave, that's solid proof. How does everyone care to explain that? Can't be the rule changes, right?

That was after a lockout season when they played just horrible, weak basketball without much energy.
Why did it go back to 80.6 in 00-01 and stayed just around 80 afterwards?
And arguing with those numbers just reveals some logical faults.
In 94-95 they introduced the first handchecking rules - what happened? FGAs went down from 84.4 to 81.5, 80.2 etc.
In 04-05 they even strenghtened these rules - what happened? FGAs did not increase.
Perimeter shooting exploded after they introduced these rules in the 94-95 (9.9 to 15.3, 16.0, 16.8) season and it hasn't changed much since.

I've already been given one post of made up stuff. I've given you guys proof.

Give me links so that I can read and discuss.

Also, can you explain the spike in scoring to me? How Stackhouse of all players scored 30 PPG? I'm still waiting for someone to explain this. And Jerry, Kobe, T-Mac, etc all continued dominating like this. The rules weren't changed back. Also, show me a list of FGA though honestly it'll have little to no avail because these guys continued to score high since the rules took effect and after the spike,

and their FGA have stayed way up there as well. Part of the reason these rule changes were made was to give the league more star power especially from the perimeter,

so if Kobe takes 3 more shots because it's easier to score for the star and the perimeter player next to him takes 3 or more less,
what does that prove?

FIBA Rules are therefore better. More handchecking, more post play and more passing instead of isolations.

I think the rule changes were necessary not because they were looking for another star, but because team defenses were getting really good.
Even after the rule changes, the early-mid 2000s era had some of the lowest scoring averages ever. The scoring averages only got up again after the rule changes that were implemented in the 2004-2005 season.