Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:25 am
Rajon Hondo.
Sports is our Business
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tsherkin wrote:
Top 15 player, top 15 player...
Who would you take over Rondo right now? I'm thinking Rose and Dirk (when healthy), Pierce (until he shows me otherwise, which will happen soon), Steph Curry, Chris Paul, Dwight, Nash, Kobe, Lebron, Deron, Melo and Tony Parker. I'm strong considering adding Kyrie Irving and James Harden to that list.
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og15 wrote:....
UGA Hayes wrote:I disagree. Obviously Boston fans can't answer this impartially anymore since Ray left but I guarrantee you if you asked the fans on our board last year while RAy was still on our team who was most responsible for our turnovers it would 95% Ray Allen and 5% everyone else.
I_Socrates wrote:it would be ignorant of me to say Rondo isn't as good as Nash as a point guard. The role of a point guard (in my humble opinion) is to primarily set up his team mates and run the team, and Rondo does that as well as anyone.
This is a pattern we see consistently, over time, with all the high-pressure, high creation players. When guys are able to take their own offense and use it pressure the defense on a regular basis, either by calling their own number or a teammate’s, it inflates the Global Efficiency of a team to a significant degree. We don’t see an effect this large with Rondo, and it makes it unlikely that he could be part of an elite offense without being surrounded by elite offensive players.
There is a fairly strong correlation with assists (R=0.83). However, the error rate in certain players is enormous, which was the impetus for the stat in the first place; we want to know who’s creating opportunities, not simply who is passing to good players.
bballjunkie281 wrote:I'm sorry but anyone who says they would take Irving over Rondo is talking out of their ass. Irving is a great shooter/scorer but a poor facilitator for a PG and a HUGE liability on defense.
tsherkin wrote:bballjunkie281 wrote:I'm sorry but anyone who says they would take Irving over Rondo is talking out of their ass. Irving is a great shooter/scorer but a poor facilitator for a PG and a HUGE liability on defense.
Mmm... he'd look better as a facilitator if he had a more polished team with superior roleplayers instead of what he's got in Cleveland right now. More to the point, there's no inherent value to a volume distributor, it always depends on the player. A point who can pressure a defense with probing drives and make them pay with perimeter shooting while playing unselfish ball and looking for his teammates is typically going to be at least as, if not more, valuable than a point who primarily dishes to others without also presenting a strong threat as a shooter.
Remember that there's a big difference between playing with Jason Terry/Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett versus playing with Tristan Thompson, Anderson Varejao, Alonzo Gee and Dion Waiters or whomever else.
Yeah, Irving doesn't put up sexy assist numbers, but he's a highly efficient scoring threat who isn't a ball-hog, and that's actually more important. Meantime, he'd look better on defense if there was any real semblance of organization or serious defensive talent behind him. Again, it's easy to play D when KG is backing you up and you have the legacy of Thibodeau's defensive system going through your players as opposed to what the Cavs have. Varejao is a good defender, but who else? He's not a DPOY-caliber player and while the Cavs force turnovers and dominate the defensive boards, they struggle on D all over the place. Irving is a point guard, the least important defensive position, and he's not even that bad on D for his position.
bballjunkie281 wrote:That "if he had better players to facilitate to" excuse was the same excuse Kings fans used for Tyreke Evans in his rookie year. Irving systematically passes up open teammates while being double-teamed. True, he is able to finish at an impressive rate even while being double teamed, but a PG has to trust his teammates even if they suck, otherwise he develops bad habits and is unable to run a team. Do you think if you surround him with better players he will all of the sudden change his game entirely to accommodate that?
I'm not trying to hate on Irving. I think he will be a great player but he is nowhere near Rondo's level as far as the total value he brings to a team, and I don't see him getting there in the foreseeable future.
bertrob wrote:Would you really take Steph Curry over Rondo? And Pierce over Rondo but not Garnett?
mid-post wrote:I was with you up to the point where you were considering Curry over Rondo. I think that is kind of disrespectful. Especially when you consider Rondo turns it up in the playoffs.
tsherkin wrote: See what I mean? I think people are too hypnotized by Rondo's rep and his APG, just like people seem to think bloated volume PPG is inherently valuable.
mid-post wrote:But I still think he's proven himself in the playoffs (assists aside) as an elite competitor, very good defender and a nice quarterback. I think Curry still has a ton to prove.
Blame Rasho wrote:tskerkin... Simple question... Is Rondo's A game better than Curry's A game? I think you would, agree yes...
tsherkin wrote:Top 15 player, top 15 player...
Who would you take over Rondo right now? I'm thinking Rose and Dirk (when healthy), Pierce (until he shows me otherwise, which will happen soon), Steph Curry, Chris Paul, Dwight, Nash, Kobe, Lebron, Deron, Melo and Tony Parker. I'm strong considering adding Kyrie Irving and James Harden to that list.
Doormatt wrote:
kevin love (when healthy)?
Aldridge?
wade?