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Rivers is regarded by many as a top three coach in the league, and I love the guy and the team, but I think it's becoming quite apparent that Rivers really isn't an elite coach. I think it was Tom Thibodeau that was responsible for squeezing the talent out of the 2008-2010 Celtic squads.

Let's look at some statistics:

Doc Rivers coaches the Orlando Magic for 4 seasons hovering around a 50% w/l rate. His fifth season he goes 1-11 and then gets fired. He then gets the head coaching gig for Boston.

His first three seasons as a Celtic?

45-37 (.549) 2004
33-49 (.402) 2005
24-58 (2.93) 2006

That's right, the 2006 Celtics only won 30% of their games. At this point, Rivers is an under .500 coach. Quite a bit under .500 actually. His future employment is in question.

They then hire Tom Thibodeau, current head coach of the Chicago Bulls, as assistant coach and rebuild the roster at the start of the 2007-2008 season.

2007 Celtics?

66-16 (.805)

So Thibodeau stays on board and the team goes: .756 / .610 / .683 in the three following seasons as Celtics assistant coach. He then leaves to coach the bulls.

The next season the Celtics then fall to, without Thibodeau:

39-27 (.591) Their worst season since the 2007.

Now the Celtics are off to a 6-5 start, about to go to 6-7 after they lose to the Spurs and OKC. Yet they have an extremely talented squad.

If you believe what Rondo believes:

“I believe this team is more talented than that team,” Rondo said. “But the key to the 2008 team is that everyone bought into the system….

“Guys probably won’t play their normal amount of minutes that they have in the past because we’re such a talented team.”

Then coaching / management is to blame for their lousy performances, at least partially. It becomes even more obvious when you watch the games. Doc Rivers doesn't play his rebounders, resulting in 13 offensive rebounds for the opposing team in ONE quarter. He insists on playing Sullinger and Bass at the same time, over and over and over. He doesn't take advantage of matchups. He has JET running through screens. And in and interview this morning he actually said he wasn't aware of Rondo's assist record because he, "doesn't read."

So Doc Rivers is a roughly .500 coach that people say is one of the elites. It's funny though, Popovich is an elite coach and he has a >.680 record over his career. That's elite.

Let's look at his old assistant coach, Thibs. His head coaching record?

TOM THIBODEAUX -- 112-36 (.757)

A 76% winrate in his first two seasons as Bull's headcoach?

I think Doc is a good, loveable guy, and has some decent huddle plays... but I don't think he's nearly as elite as people make him out to be. His players love him, sure, and he's charismatic, and has leadership abilities...but he's not good at teaching his team how to play. The celtics have had one of the worst offenses in the last couple of years, now their defense is suffering.

It's quite funny that the Celtic's defense went from best in the league to one of the worst, in one season. It doesn't make sense until you read:

Thibodeau (right) as part of the Boston Celtics coaching staff

On August 30, 2007, Thibodeau was named associate head coach of the Boston Celtics,[4][5][6] who hoped to bolster their defense with his hiring.[7] Eventually, he helped the Celtics become the best defensive team in the league with his expertise.[8] On November 4, 2007, Thibodeau took over head coaching duties against the Toronto Raptors in place of Doc Rivers, who was unable to coach due to the death of his father earlier that day.[9]

During the 2008 playoffs, Thibodeau had been rumored as a candidate for the vacant head coaching job with the New York Knicks, whom he worked for as an assistant coach for seven years, as well as the Chicago Bulls.[10][11] However, he wasn't hired as the head coach of either franchise.

Thibodeau led the Celtics to the best rating in several defensive categories in 2007–08,[2] and was a key factor in containing Kobe Bryant during the 2008 Finals.[12]

You can say the BIG 3s decline is to blame for this dropoff, and I'm sure it does have some effect, but you cannot deny that there is a strong correlation with the drop of performance, especially defensive, after Thibodeau departed.

So in short, Doc Rivers is great at leading a team when his assistant coach does most of the X's and O's. He's probably a below average coach in that regard. He needs a good assistant coach to shine, someone to take the burden off his shoulders. He's more of a PR manager than a coach, and probably owes his job and reputation to the head coach of the Bulls.

tom thibs was always the goods, when he was an assistant coach for the knicks under van gundy, they were an elite defensive team

blueNorange wrote:tom thibs was always the goods, when he was an assistant coach for the knicks under van gundy, they were an elite defensive team

Why didn't the Boston front office hold on to the guy, or give him the head coaching job?

It's more than obvious that he is probably one of the best coaches in the NBA.

because it'd be completely un-professional to

1. fire rivers after all the success
2. tell thibs "no you can't become a coach, you have to be an assistant coach"

Thibodeau is really an amazing coach, it's a surprise he went so long without getting a shot as head coach.

blueNorange wrote:because it'd be completely un-professional to

1. fire rivers after all the success
2. tell thibs "no you can't become a coach, you have to be an assistant coach"

Well Rivers was going to retire until the Boston FO coaxed him into more seasons. Why not pay Thibodeau as much as he'd get as head coach for the Bulls and then allow him to take over for Doc?

bawse wrote:Thibodeau is really an amazing coach, it's a surprise he went so long without getting a shot as head coach.

75% w/l rate for his first two seasons as head coach? That IS amazing. That's higher than Popovich's under the Spurs.

What if JVG doesnt get fired from the Rockets and Thibs stays on as his defensive coach for the 07-08 season?


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Doc Rivers is an elite coach. Get out of here for that!

kombayn wrote:Doc Rivers is an elite coach. Get out of here for that!

He's elite because...the media tells us he is? He hasn't had a single season above .600 without Tom Thibodeau, and has had quite a few seasons under .400.

I posted numbers proving the opposite. I eagerly wait your rebuttal.

If the C's are going to pay $32 mil for Jeff Green, you'd think they'd be able to offer Thibs ~4m or so.

Thibs a top 3 coach IMO. Tireless coach, he's never satisfied. He's JVG, but he knows when to appreciate results when they happen (unlike JVG And SVG who find ways to complain even after 30 pt blowouts). I'd love to have him as the Rockets coach.

I think you're ignoring why Rivers' teams got better in the 2007-08.

TexansFanatic wrote:Thibs a top 3 coach IMO. Tireless coach, he's never satisfied. He's JVG, but he knows when to appreciate results when they happen (unlike JVG And SVG who find ways to complain even after 30 pt blowouts). I'd love to have him as the Rockets coach.

It's amazing how he received almost no credit for the 2008 Celtic's championship. It's going to become dreadfully apparent how important he was to Boston's organization over the next couple of years.

TylerTheDebater wrote:I think you're ignoring why Rivers' teams got better in the 2007-08.

Obviously the big 3 had some to do with it, but I don't think it's the entire story. The Celtic's went from the #1 defense in the league to the bottom half a year a season after Thibodeau's departure? That's no coincidence.

So Cs fan's internal infighting is coming out to General Forum. Sad day indeed. There was no need of this. I am as disappointed as any Cs fans but this is still very early. I myself think Doc is overrated but let's see. We have long way to go. Hopefully things turnaround. Hope and luck are the words used for Cs and that is unfortunate.

cnv2855 wrote:Rivers is regarded by many as a top three coach in the league, and I love the guy and the team, but I think it's becoming quite apparent that Rivers really isn't an elite coach. I think it was Tom Thibodeau that was responsible for squeezing the talent out of the 2008-2010 Celtic squads.

Let's look at some statistics:

Doc Rivers coaches the Orlando Magic for 4 seasons hovering around a 50% w/l rate. His fifth season he goes 1-11 and then gets fired. He then gets the head coaching gig for Boston.

His first three seasons as a Celtic?

45-37 (.549) 2004
33-49 (.402) 2005
24-58 (2.93) 2006

That's right, the 2006 Celtics only won 30% of their games. At this point, Rivers is an under .500 coach. Quite a bit under .500 actually. His future employment is in question.

They then hire Tom Thibodeau, current head coach of the Chicago Bulls, as assistant coach and rebuild the roster at the start of the 2007-2008 season.

2007 Celtics?

66-16 (.805)

So Thibodeau stays on board and the team goes: .756 / .610 / .683 in the three following seasons as Celtics assistant coach. He then leaves to coach the bulls.

The next season the Celtics then fall to, without Thibodeau:

39-27 (.591) Their worst season since the 2007.

Now the Celtics are off to a 6-5 start, about to go to 6-7 after they lose to the Spurs and OKC. Yet they have an extremely talented squad.

If you believe what Rondo believes:

“I believe this team is more talented than that team,” Rondo said. “But the key to the 2008 team is that everyone bought into the system….

“Guys probably won’t play their normal amount of minutes that they have in the past because we’re such a talented team.”

Then coaching / management is to blame for their lousy performances, at least partially. It becomes even more obvious when you watch the games. Doc Rivers doesn't play his rebounders, resulting in 13 offensive rebounds for the opposing team in ONE quarter. He insists on playing Sullinger and Bass at the same time, over and over and over. He doesn't take advantage of matchups. He has JET running through screens. And in and interview this morning he actually said he wasn't aware of Rondo's assist record because he, "doesn't read."

So Doc Rivers is a roughly .500 coach that people say is one of the elites. It's funny though, Popovich is an elite coach and he has a >.680 record over his career. That's elite.

Let's look at his old assistant coach, Thibs. His head coaching record?

TOM THIBODEAUX -- 112-36 (.757)

A 76% winrate in his first two seasons as Bull's headcoach?

I think Doc is a good, loveable guy, and has some decent huddle plays... but I don't think he's nearly as elite as people make him out to be. His players love him, sure, and he's charismatic, and has leadership abilities...but he's not good at teaching his team how to play. The celtics have had one of the worst offenses in the last couple of years, now their defense is suffering.

It's quite funny that the Celtic's defense went from best in the league to one of the worst, in one season. It doesn't make sense until you read:

Thibodeau (right) as part of the Boston Celtics coaching staff

On August 30, 2007, Thibodeau was named associate head coach of the Boston Celtics,[4][5][6] who hoped to bolster their defense with his hiring.[7] Eventually, he helped the Celtics become the best defensive team in the league with his expertise.[8] On November 4, 2007, Thibodeau took over head coaching duties against the Toronto Raptors in place of Doc Rivers, who was unable to coach due to the death of his father earlier that day.[9]

During the 2008 playoffs, Thibodeau had been rumored as a candidate for the vacant head coaching job with the New York Knicks, whom he worked for as an assistant coach for seven years, as well as the Chicago Bulls.[10][11] However, he wasn't hired as the head coach of either franchise.

Thibodeau led the Celtics to the best rating in several defensive categories in 2007–08,[2] and was a key factor in containing Kobe Bryant during the 2008 Finals.[12]

You can say the BIG 3s decline is to blame for this dropoff, and I'm sure it does have some effect, but you cannot deny that there is a strong correlation with the drop of performance, especially defensive, after Thibodeau departed.

So in short, Doc Rivers is great at leading a team when his assistant coach does most of the X's and O's. He's probably a below average coach in that regard. He needs a good assistant coach to shine, someone to take the burden off his shoulders. He's more of a PR manager than a coach, and probably owes his job and reputation to the head coach of the Bulls.

I completely agree with this entire post. I have been saying this for a while. Thibodeau's defensive scheme made the Celtics. Doc just kept it going after TT left for Chicago. People want to say the Celtics were a top defensive team when he left but be honest, why change the system when it's working. What Doc is, is a good players coach and is able to manage personalities. With KG, Rondo, Allen, and Pierce he has been able to keep the team moving in a positive direction but the defensive system is all Thibodeau.....

CelticsRise wrote:So Cs fan's internal infighting is coming out to General Forum. Sad day indeed. There was no need of this. I am as disappointed as any Cs fans but this is still very early. I myself think Doc is overrated but let's see. We have long way to go. Hopefully things turnaround. Hope and luck are the words used for Cs and that is unfortunate.

Not infighting, I am just making a thread about our perception of head coaches in the NBA. I think Rivers is given too much "benefit of the doubt" and isn't nearly as solid a coach as people think. I think he's definitely to blame for our incredibly bad start to last season, and the subsequent horrible start to this season. We're going to see just how important coaching is with the performance of LAL over the course of this season.

Rivers is a great PR person, great at managing his players, great at keeping them happy, is charismatic, and has leadership qualities, but he's not the X's and O's kind of guy.

The Celtic's look lost this year. They are a top four team, talent-wise, but I think it's obvious to anyone who has watched all of their games where the weak link is... Not dissimilar to the current Lakers. All of our game threads, we're constantly baffled by the roster, rotations, and matchups that Doc has been using, and also by our absolutely horrible PnR defense.

I understand your point but I kind of disagree.

Phil Jackson, the only coach to have 11 rings as a coach and I think if I'm not mistaken has two as a player. Anyways, everyone views him as the greatest coach of all time. Which statisics shows that he is BUT he also had some poor years. Not saying Doc is close to Jackson level but my point being even good coaches can't really do much without good to superstar players.Jordan/ Pippen/Rodman/Grant, Byrant/ O'neal/ Gosal. Hell I'd say Jackson could barely get a horrible team to the playoffs.

So to answer your question, no I don't think Thibodeau was more responsible then Doc. You have an intresting point though.

Even as a Celtic fan I'll admit that Doc is overrated and isn't an elite coach.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD19Bm8QlpM[/youtube]

This was a nice gesture by the Celtics.

Not saying Doc is elite but I'd say he's a good coach.

piston1423 wrote:I understand your point but I kind of disagree.

Phil Jackson, the only coach to have 11 rings as a coach and I think if I'm not mistaken has two as a player. Anyways, everyone views him as the greatest coach of all time. Which statisics shows that he is BUT he also had some poor years. Not saying Doc is close to Jackson level but my point being even good coaches can't really do much without good to superstar players.Jordan/ Pippen/Rodman/Grant, Byrant/ O'neal/ Gosal. Hell I'd say Jackson could barely get a horrible team to the playoffs.

So to answer your question, no I don't think Thibodeau was more responsible then Doc. You have an intresting point though.

Are you saying the Celtic's aren't talented and don't have good players? They have a top 10 player overall in Rajon, the 2nd best PF of all time who is STILL playing at an elite level (Garnett), and Paul Pierce is still the team captain.

On paper, they're probably the 2nd most talented team in the East. Yet they're on the way to being 6-7 and under .500...again.