RealGM

Yeah, I know that using "offense" to "stop" is not usually a sensible combination of terms, but bear with me...

Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Durant, Westbrooke and Melo are all borderline-unstoppable, but what if opposing teams with sub-par wings would build their offense around tiring down these superstars?

Take for example a team with overall mediocre wings who have reasonable shooting skills like the Sacramento Kings - Brooks, Freddete, Salmons, Garcia - all with .365~.400 3PT% (I'm leaving out their wings with lesser shooting numbers this year - Thomas, Thornton and Evans). What if they run these players with constant off the ball movement (ala Reggie Miller and Ray Allen) and use hockey rotations so that whenever these players get tired they are replaced immediately? If the opposing superstar needs to constantly run after them it's inevitable that they get very tired after 30 minuets or so. If they slack off on defense they leave them free to make open 3 point shots.

If this scheme can work, teams with less talented wings but effective front-lines (e.g. Memphis' Gasol and Randolph, Indiana's Hibbert and West, and yes, even Sacramento's Cousins and Thompson) could in principle gain a new edge over teams that are otherwise superior.

Does this make sense? And if it does, why doesn't any NBA coach use this offense?

The mediocre wings are going to get tired before the superstar wings do.

realball wrote:The mediocre wings are going to get tired before the superstar wings do.

How so? Do you really think players like Brooks/Freddete/Salmons/Garcia are going to be tired running 5 minute per quarter? We're not talking bigs here. Do you think a player like Wade will get less tired running at the same pace as the opposing player if he has to keep it for 9-10 minutes per quarter? While the the "mediocre wing" is resting, Wade need to keep defending this crazy constant running. I don't see how he does not get more tired than the opposing player* who plays for much shorter periods.

* This scheme does not apply only to wings, but also to PG's.

That's what the zone is for. It'll leave some fairly open 3s, but eventually it'll be the team running around that gets more tired than the zone team.

StopItDRose wrote:That's what the zone is for. It'll leave some fairly open 3s, but eventually it'll be the team running around that gets more tired than the zone team.

And if you're playing a team like the Knicks or the Warriors, that'll hit most of those open threes? Leave them open long enough and there's almost no chance of beating them.

StopItDRose, that's a good point, but how many of these teams (LAL, MIA, OKC, NYK) know how to play effective zone defense? It's not trivial.

couldnt they just switch someone else onto the man running off ball often?

Ninjek wrote:couldnt they just switch someone else onto the man running off ball often?

Switching can result in serious mis-matches, especially when the constantly-moving player doesn't stay on the perimeter but also runs through the baseline and curls all over the court.

Other opinions?

Well it wouldn't affect Kobe, because he doesn't give **** on D anyways...

Running really hard doesn't affect these top tier athletes as much as it does mere mortals. This technique IS used, but then unless the shooters can really defend, the superstar wings will abuse these guys.

Imagine Wade guarded by Fredette, particularly if the backcourt consists of Brooks, Fredette, and say Salmons. Salmons has to stick LeBron, and you're left with Wade on Fredette. Who do you think is going to win that battle, no matter how tired Wade gets?

It's a good strategy when you've got like prime Mark Price, Reggie Miller, and say Steve Smith out there, but if you've got average players whose specialty is shooting, your defense is going to get abused and the offense will probably not be efficient enough to win.

But yes, off-ball movement to get the star player tired is not a new concept at all.

Usually they wont have the superstars chase anyone around. They'll have someone like Norris Cole or shane battier do that.

Other thing is that moving without the ball well and still being effective is an elite skill. Most scrubs cant catch and shoot on the move and miss cuts and rotations on both ends.



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The Bulls do this against twos. We have Rip Hamilton run around a bunch of screens, and then we bring in Jimmy Butler to play solid defense. Lather, rinse, repeat.

realball wrote:The mediocre wings are going to get tired before the superstar wings do.

/thread.

Wade has had trouble in the past with guys like Rip and Ray Allen. Not really offensively, but defensively they made him work extremely hard, and it somewhat limited his jumping strength on defense.

Its a good idea! Just run the good players to death. But I think that the defense would adjust at some point ( maybe switching? or zone defense?) but still a god idea!

The problem is that while you are hitting your three's at a 35-40% range the opposing team will score on each possession because most shooters can't defend a superstar.

You would have to have a very good interior defense to have any chance. And even if you have they are likely in foul trouble very soon if all these shooters let LeBron and company blow by them.