RealGM

Posted: **Tue Feb 5, 2013 8:17 pm**

From another thread, but hand checking is interesting topic, so I would like to hear more opinions on that.

yehyeh82 wrote:Hand checking didn't stop him but KJ probably would have been more prolific if they couldn't put hands on him. Just as Jordan probably would have been more efficient and Lebron would probably be less. I am not arguing as to the level of the athletes from each era or the level of defense. Things are different. You can play a zone today and you couldn't back then. But to think that allowing hand checking wouldn't affect a players effieciency or numbers is ludicrous.

But how much exactly it affects players numbers?

I think it would have a pretty substantial effect because it makes it easier to stay in front of a player. I know this from my own experience.

I don't know if you know

, but hand checking rules were first time changed in... 1978 (!):
• Clarification added to prohibit hand-checking through “rigid enforcement” of rule allowing a defensive player to retain contact with his opponent so long as he does not impede his opponent’s progress.

So if I'm understanding that right - you can "check" player, but can't stop him with your hands. So how it could affect offensive player if he want to attack the basket?

Besides, another change, 1994:
• Hand-checking eliminated from the end line in the backcourt to the opposite foul line.

1999
• In the backcourt, there is no contact with hands and forearms by defenders. In the frontcourt, there is no contact with hands and forearms by defenders except below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may only use his forearm. In the post, neither the offensive player nor the defender is allowed to dislodge or displace a player who has legally obtained a position. Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from point A to point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player. Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding “chucking” or “wrapping up” is prohibited.

2001
• No contact with either hands or forearms by defenders except in the frontcourt below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may use his forearm only.

Again - if I'm understanding that right hand checking was already prohibited in 1994 (to the FT line)? You may only put forearm below FT line (since 1999), right? So next rule change (2004) didn't change anything for penetrating (slashing) players who were attacking from top of the 3P line (or generally from above FT line)?

and finally 2004:
• New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html

So my question is - which of these hand checking rules change was the most important and how much does it help offensive player? What changed for perimeter players between 1994 and 2004 if they mostly attack from above the 3P line?

Posted: **Tue Feb 5, 2013 8:58 pm**

The 1994 change of the hand-checking rules in response to the Knicks-Rockets finals was the first major change as the Pistons had eroded the previous '78 rule change. The 2004 change where no contact with perimeter players came in was the biggest. The Pistons were able to hold opponents under 85 points per game with that kind of pressure defence where they would body guards up and down the floor. After that it became the parade to the free throw line. It also made the game a point guard's game and that position had a resurgence in scoring.

The inability to pressure a guard up the floor has opened up the game considerably. It has also devalued post play versus perimeter play. The removal of elbow checking has produced this modern era.

Posted: **Tue Feb 5, 2013 9:01 pm**

Anyone who doesn't think that a defender being able to put their hands on your has a marked effect on your ability to penetrate, get by them, change directions etc. has never played serious ball. Period. It also helps the defender guide the player into preferred areas/shotblockers and gives his teammates an extra second or so to provide help defense.

Posted: **Tue Feb 5, 2013 9:02 pm**

prophet_of_rage wrote:The 1994 change of the hand-checking rules in response to the Knicks-Rockets finals was the first major change as the Pistons had eroded the previous '78 rule change. The 2004 change where no contact with perimeter players came in was the biggest.

But contact above FT line was already prohibited in 1994, right? And everything except forearm below FT line was prohibited in 1999? So how exactly 2004 change affected penetrating players?

Posted: **Tue Feb 5, 2013 9:08 pm**

DavidStern wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:The 1994 change of the hand-checking rules in response to the Knicks-Rockets finals was the first major change as the Pistons had eroded the previous '78 rule change. The 2004 change where no contact with perimeter players came in was the biggest.

But contact above FT line was already prohibited in 1994, right? And everything except forearm below FT line was prohibited in 1999? So how exactly 2004 change affected penetrating players?

Handchecking like Derek Harper was made illegal for the 1994-95 season. While the elbow check was prohibited below the free throw line since 1999 the enforcement went in cycles and in 2004 you had the Pistons bodying up on the guard pressuring up the floor. You can no longer make any kind of contact with the guards. You'll notice that rule change coincided with Nash's surge into a superstar.

remember referees have points of emphasis and become acclimated to certain styles. So while contact was accepted in different circumstances and the interpretation of impeding was taken differently by 2004 there was a rigid enforcement.

Posted: **Tue Feb 5, 2013 9:10 pm**

DavidStern wrote:But contact above FT line was already prohibited in 1994, right? And everything except forearm below FT line was prohibited in 1999? So how exactly 2004 change affected penetrating players?

The major difference came with the interpretation. While the official rules said that handchecking wasn't allowed, the lax interpretation was letting the defensive player getting away with this until 2004 anyway. Since the 2004/05 a player actually gets called for handchecking, that was hardly the case before.

Posted: **Wed Feb 6, 2013 12:10 am**

The 2004 ban on hand checking turned Steve Nash (a very good player) into a tow-time MVP. Does that suggest how important (not overrated) that rule was.

Also defense had totally overtaken offense before the rule change. Some teams held opponents to under 90 ppg average for the whole season.

The hand check and more importantly the forearm check allowed defenders to redirect dribblers whenever they made a move towards the basket.

Posted: **Wed Feb 6, 2013 12:13 am**

if AI got to play his entire prime post-handchecking he would have been a lot more efficient. Just look at his stats.

Posted: **Wed Feb 6, 2013 12:18 am**

Jordan23Forever wrote:Anyone who doesn't think that a defender being able to put their hands on your has a marked effect on your ability to penetrate, get by them, change directions etc. has never played serious ball. Period. It also helps the defender guide the player into preferred areas/shotblockers and gives his teammates an extra second or so to provide help defense.

This. It also helps the on-ball defender recover on defense keeping his man in front of him. Hand checking = cheating.

Posted: **Wed Feb 6, 2013 12:26 am**

Yep getting rid of the hand check has been good for business. In response though they need to continue to work on the rules to allow the defender to have his space... and that includes jumping straight up... and hands in the air. Not saying we need a bunch of offensive foul whistles... but sometimes a few more no calls. Some will agrue that makes the game more rough... but that's what you get for running into a defender. Shouldn't blame the defense.

Posted: **Wed Feb 6, 2013 12:59 am**

I don't think it's overrated. It's far easier to defend someone on the perimeter when you can funnel them with your hand/forearm. Without hand-checking most defenders are at the mercy of guys who are extremely quick. Derrick Rose for example would be easier to contain with hand-checking.

Posted: **Wed Feb 6, 2013 1:22 am**

Hand checking helps sure .... but it doesn't make up for bad defense. So its not overrated its just the way guys describe the "handchecking" era is decieving. Believe me handchecking or not, a bad defender aint gonna stop a good offensive player much which is why those guys scored so much.

I won't go at length about the defense in the "handchecking" error but I'll sum it like this. You can't play good defense playing at a pace thats in the upper 90's or higher .... Its impossible. Even a pace in the mid 90's is a stretch. You can't play as fast or score as much as most of the teams did if your playing any real defense ... its impossible. Theres a reason those defensive piston teams in the 80's had one of the slowest pace in the league and was towards the bottom half in points scored.

Posted: **Wed Feb 6, 2013 1:33 am**

It was a great rule change. Those games got horrible to watch.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

Posted: **Wed Feb 6, 2013 1:48 am**

DavidStern wrote:But contact above FT line was already prohibited in 1994, right?

Tell Jordan that.

Posted: **Wed Feb 6, 2013 5:53 am**

Today I was watching GSW-HOU game and it seems hand checking still occurs on regular basis. For example Curry constantly was hand checking Lin above FT line. Similar with Klay on Harden. It's the same hand checking that was after 1994 change. Anyone could explain this?

Posted: **Wed Feb 6, 2013 6:02 am**

kodo wrote:
DavidStern wrote:But contact above FT line was already prohibited in 1994, right?

Tell Jordan that.

Tell LeBron:

or Nash

Really, I quickly rewatched many games from different seasons and even after 2004 rules change hand checking still occurs - not so strong like before 1978 (BTW, Jordan played in a era when hand checking rules were already softer, more pro offensive), but the same as after 1994. And basically the biggest difference between now and late 80s/early 90s was the way Pistons and NYK (especially Harper) played. Other than these two teams rest of the league hand checked the same way as todays teams.

Posted: **Wed Feb 6, 2013 6:10 am**

Ah. One of my favorite topics,.... hand check exists still in the game today and more than illegall double teams did back then which is NOW Legal. Does that make sense?

Posted: **Wed Feb 6, 2013 7:01 am**

Another today's game and the same story - hand checking at his best, look how Conley is defending Dragic. And that's not just one play, it happened all night:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-Z7BfkquvU&feature=youtu.b[/youtube]e

Posted: **Wed Feb 6, 2013 7:35 am**

DavidStern wrote:
kodo wrote:
DavidStern wrote:But contact above FT line was already prohibited in 1994, right?

Tell Jordan that.

Tell LeBron:

or Nash

in none of those pics is the defender impeding the offensive players movement though. obviously it's just a pic and if lebron/nash/cp3 made a move to the basket and were still being hand checked then maybe it was called.

Really, I quickly rewatched many games from different seasons and even after 2004 rules change hand checking still occurs - not so strong like before 1978 (BTW, Jordan played in a era when hand checking rules were already softer, more pro offensive), but the same as after 1994. And basically the biggest difference between now and late 80s/early 90s was the way Pistons and NYK (especially Harper) played. Other than these two teams rest of the league hand checked the same way as todays teams.

Posted: **Wed Feb 6, 2013 7:40 am**

playing against handchecking is so frustrating my goddd

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