Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA

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Re: Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA 

Post#61 » by countryboi » Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:58 pm

reading this it comes off as pretty racist, I wouldnt be shocked if he still believed something like this today, not that he would say it. the kinda person that blacks are inherently better athletes are the same people that say blacks are inherently worse in school or more like to be a criminal or asians are better at math. stereotypes are not facts
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Re: Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA 

Post#62 » by Neutral 123 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:02 pm

countryboi wrote:reading this it comes off as pretty racist, I wouldnt be shocked if he still believed something like this today, not that he would say it. the kinda person that blacks are inherently better athletes are the same people that say blacks are inherently worse in school or more like to be a criminal or asians are better at math. stereotypes are not facts

Yes, hopefully the Zen Master has grown. He certainly isn't more humble, so I'd cringe at to see him respond to being asked about this. His ego alone might make it hard for him to admit what he wrote was stupid.
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Re: Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA 

Post#63 » by Shaqsquatch » Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:34 pm

marcus_misc wrote:excerpt from his book "Maverick"

"Throughout the years the black players on the Knicks have possessed much better physical ability than the white players, being generally faster and better jumpers. I also think that they have always had superior one-on-one talent."

"White players are more often willing to run patterns and to work collectively."

"Because of the predominance of blacks in pro basketball, the sport is rapidly disintegrating into a one-on-one sport. There are only five or six NBA teams who play with more than a superficial degree of team unity."

On the Knicks: "The starting front court played white basketball while guards played black basketball."

"Black kids growing up want to be the superstar of their neighborhood. They want to be the toughest kids on the block, the richest or, once they get to the playground, the best one-on-one basketball players. White kids, on the
other hand, usually are raised in a more homogeneous environment which provides other outlets for personal
expression. They're also constantly being taught the principle of subordinating their own personal glory for the good
of the group."
"The average player's career is a very short period of his life, and the minute he's through nobody knows who is. Twenty-five years from now the only people who will remember me will be a few trivia experts, and that's exactly how it should be. A lot of black players look at their careers differently. Many blacks have let themselves believe
that being in the NBA is one of the greatest things a person can accomplish. I believe this type of feeling is
ultimately very destructive, because the only way you can live with it is to get into a heavy fantasy trip. I've seen
the process develop many times, and very few players ever find happiness that way."



couple questions
1) how come this hasn't gotten much attention? if someone (coach, player, media) were to say this today they would
get absolutely blasted.

2) to what extent, if any, is what he's saying true? (back then and today)


Well, unfortunately you're right about someone getting blasted nowadays about this. But Mr Jackson is right on the money for the most part. Charles Barkely made similar comments about many Blacks unrealistic expectations regarding pro sports ( remember the SI issue with him on the cover in shackles ?). BTW I'm black. Many young black men grow up thinking that the only way to have a satisfying life is to make it big in pro sports or music. I was one of them. What Phil basically said is that he saw his black teammates put all their eggs in one basket that very very few will find anything close to the amount of sucess and fame they hoped for. Barkley said the same thing 20 years ago. Except Barkley pretty much expanded it out to encompass 90% of all young black males.
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Re: Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA 

Post#64 » by Shaqsquatch » Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:37 pm

jdub114 wrote:I remember reading an article by Scoop Jackson about different racially charged comments from Phil and it always left a bad taste in my mouth, but what he says here is true for the most part.

It can be black and white, but it could also boil down to class. In the inner city there's a dog eat dog mentality. Everyone wants to make it out the hood, and be that savior that takes everyone with them. That mentality translates to the playing field. I've seen it growing up and been a victim to it. Even to the mentality of thinking the NBA is the greatest achievement possible. Now as an adult, I can see NBA players for what they are: just basketball players. It would be nice to be lauded like them and have their money, but they're not changing the world or the way people think (aside from the theme of hard work).


What hood did Kobe grow up in?
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Re: Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA 

Post#65 » by Gus McCrae » Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:57 pm

I want to tread lightly on these racial topics as not to be insensitive or offend anyone. I tried to do a quick lookup of some stats without any luck, maybe someone can help. My guess is maybe in the 70s there was a higher % of African Americans in poverty than there is today so he didn't feel the need to say he was only talking about poor African Americans, he probably felt that was a given when he made the statement. I don't know.
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Re: Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA 

Post#66 » by sportjames23 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:26 pm

The stereotyping in this thread is beyond foul. I bet most of those doing the stereotyping don't have a degree in sociology.

This crap should be locked.
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Re: Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA 

Post#67 » by Ziggy Stardust » Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:49 pm

It's funny how America (I'm assuming most this this thread are Americans, and phil is also) has progressed so much that we don't have anymore issues with race up until anything approaching the subject is brought up. Then everyone collectively loses it.

It's ironic but I think a lot of the things Phil said about a "specific" (so nobody freaks out) black culture and the players and traits it represents are actually looked at as a positive now even if that's not what Phil was implying then. There's obvious examples of players whose game and mentality take it way too far, but you generally want the best one on one guy, or the guy who takes the game personally. You want the guy (who has the talent to back it up) who thinks he's the best player on the court, and excels when the stakes are the highest. You want the "toughest guy on the block".
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Re: Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA 

Post#68 » by Baseline Runner » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:01 pm

EscapoTHB wrote:If you think that all black kids are "me first" and can't play the team game--and that that is a function of their race--then you are a racist. That is racism. I'm sorry if you think that's PC. But it's not. There are profound economic reasons that underlie these issues. A black kid raised in the suburbs with the same opportunities as a white kid is going to come out totally different than a black kid raised in poverty in the inner city. That is a straight up fact.

The fact of the matter is that even though segregation was ended--the races are still segregated. For the most part white people aren't living around black people and vice versa. For the most part black people aren't getting the same jobs and education as white people.

I mean look at our president. Black kid--who got given a lot of the opportunities generally afforded by default to white kids--and he became the president.

There is also the problem that we incarcerate black people at a rate disproportionate to the rest of society. Which is a part of why there is so much destabilization in the inner city. And most of the charges are drug related--where they are selling drugs to...wait for it...white people.

So I mean it's completely ignorant to just say that black people play this way, white people play this way--and play that off like it's a facet of their skin color, and not an economic consideration.



Relax man, we are talking about basketball, not sociology. It is true that a lot of blacks learned the game on the playground with their peers, not in gyms or basketball camp. There is nothing wrong with that, in fact black's every day access to basketball and other players, an opportunity denied to whites in their cloistered suburban environments, is a big reason why they have excelled at the game over whites in past decades. In recent years we see Europeans who grew up in similar inner city environments in Serbia or Spain become very good basketball players as well.

If you want to talk about soccer look at the Brazilians or Argentinians who grow up kicking the ball around the streets with each other, versus suburban Americans who get shuttled to soccer practices in mini-vans. Which one produces the better soccer players? Its not about race, its about environment.
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Re: Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA 

Post#69 » by blackhawk2076 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:03 pm

eagereyez wrote:I really freaking hate how if anyone says anything that's remotely demeaning to the black ethnicity today, no one is allowed to talk about it. What Phil J said is absolutely true. Why is it such a taboo subject to talk about (blacks not being team oriented) but it's ok to poke fun at whites for not being as athletic? Anyone ever heard of the movie White Guys Can't Jump? What if someone directed a movie called Black Guys Can't Pass? I guarantee there would be some strong opinions from the NAACP etc if a movie titled that were ever released. You can't shout White Power without being called a racist. Sorry for the rant, but I really hate the double standard when it comes to ethnic issues in America.
Why would you need to shout White Power anyway? And why whites want to use the N word because they see blacks getting away with saying it?

If blacks were the majority and controlled this country from the beginning of time I'm pretty sure you would get to say White Power all you want if you wasn't treated like a human being until 60 years ago. YOU HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT THAT HUH BUDDY.

You strike me as the person who says... Why is there a BET channel but not a WET channel. I suggest you to google and find out!

As for the white man can't jump stereotype. It's no different from when black people say white guys can hit an open jump shot(bet you don't have a problem with that one) or when people say black folks can't swim.
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Re: Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA 

Post#70 » by SunKing » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:06 pm

Of course young black males will identify to sport or music. As a kid you just see and incorporate what the older guys who seems like you do.

I'm a black guy in France, when I look to the TV growing up the only time I saw black people were : on a basketball or football field or in music videos. Tell me what black guys are awesome or great at their stuff, I swear to god if anybody don't include 3 sports guys or music guys in their top 5...

Of course I have not the same culture as black US kids and I think that their position are worse than black french kids but there are the same issues. They are taking what is easy to take. It's way more easy to take a look at Michael Jordan mix or a Lil Wayne video clip, now I think it's not that easy to take a look at the life (I'm talking for me) of Thomas Sankara, Patrice Lumumba or studying work of Cheikh Anta Diop. I mean when I was in France the only time I heard about black people at school honestly : slavery. I mean they are many black people in France, a lot of country in Africa were colonized by France, the **** soccer team that 80 000 people are going to see each time have a majority of black people FFS.

And it's all about the perspectives. Can you actually say to a kid from some inner city "Look at all those guys, they all are coming from the same place as you, are looking just like you, are working hard, have a nice life and take care of their families" and they are working as doctor, in construction or whatever ?

You know that to a lot of them you can't tell "Hey dude, stop dreaming, look at your dad and all he did for you that's what's life is all about".

It's just my opinion but if you're a happening to have some final (because everybody can be misunderstanding) race-first conclusion to those kind of issue, the world isn't clearly ready to evolve, it goes way deeper than that.

I'm not crying for black people or some BS like that but for whatever race or skin color I'm just asking for a totally fair parity. Then if some group of people totally fail and it happens to be of the same race, then I will be willing to tell that for example black people are some fat lazy bitches.

It's like I can understand that people became having a bias toward a group of people (I don't like the word racism like it's some kind of decease, of course it applies to people that just have a pure hate for now valuable reason), you've been beaten a couple time by black guy, your girlfriend have been robbed by a black guy. You don't know personally many black guys nor friends with. So what are you thinking this guy is going to think ? Of course he's going to say "**** are bad people".

That's for the same reason I'm not even mad at Phil Jackson for saying this kind of stuff, he's just trying to analyze what he saw and to an extent it's not like he's completely out of his mind his conclusion seems to be legit. Now I would be more sad if over the time he didn't analyze why he thought that and if he was actually right or if he's still thinking like that like it's written in the bible.
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Re: Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA 

Post#71 » by CablexDeadpool » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:14 pm

Phil Jackson was right....nothing to see here.
ken6199 wrote:A Rocket's loss really brought out the best of people. It makes me realize this forum is filled with jobless scumbags with their only intention to come hate the team they hate and realize their anger from their life/job/wife/kids or whatever.


:lol:
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Re: Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA 

Post#72 » by Roddy B for 3 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:15 pm

Pimpwerx wrote:
sprint2thecup wrote:why would he get absolutely blasted? everything he said was in good taste. some of it is subjective, but it's not offensive or rude or anything.

black kids really do tend to focus more on 1on1 play, etc.

why do we have to crucify someone just because they discuss race? kudos to phil for having the courage to give what is a very taboo but totally innocent viewpoint. good read.

:roll:

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Re: Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA 

Post#73 » by ermocrate » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:15 pm

I think at the times were two different things that concurred in that situation:

First thing is about a different physical specimen, I mean, I can't dunk, I can't overcome my opponent with my physical ability, I'm not faster than him, I'm not taller, how I'm going to succeed? Team play and obsessive training on fundamentals.

The other thing is about were I learned to play BBall, if I've learned il the playground I'm used to be hit, I play BBall out of instinct to overcome difficulties, I don't study how to play bu how to survive and go away with a win. On the other hand if I've learned it in a gym, with a coach, the first thing I study is how to do things by the book, the perfect shoot, the perfect handle, how to cut out, the path to follow when I'm on the floor, etcetera. Competition is the last thing in my mind, first I have to learn how to play.

As always happens the right mix of different culture leads to the better environment and the most accelerated progress, non the situation is a lot more mixed than back then.


This is not a race matter if you ask me, if something such RACE matters exist, but simply 2 different cultural environment ending up in the same melting pot and form a new culture.
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Re: Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA 

Post#74 » by heatwillbeback » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:16 pm

definitely not something you would see or hear today.

Disappointed he said this in the past, but it was a different time. Doesnt make it alright, but it makes it more understandable.
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Re: Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA 

Post#75 » by CablexDeadpool » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:16 pm

Nothing is wrong with generalizations...^

People are just sensitve these days to anything and everything like some females.
ken6199 wrote:A Rocket's loss really brought out the best of people. It makes me realize this forum is filled with jobless scumbags with their only intention to come hate the team they hate and realize their anger from their life/job/wife/kids or whatever.


:lol:
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Re: Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA 

Post#76 » by heatwillbeback » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:18 pm

CablexDeadpool wrote:Nothing is wrong with generalizations...^

People are just sensitve these days to anything and everything like some females.


talking about selfish players is one thing, and warranted if he sees fit.

talking about blacks being selfish players is where he went wrong imo.
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Re: Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA 

Post#77 » by CablexDeadpool » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:21 pm

heatwillbeback wrote:definitely not something you would see or hear today.

Disappointed he said this in the past, but it was a different time. Doesnt make it alright, but it makes it more understandable.



Uh it's true.

Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Tracy Mcgrady, Allen Iverson, Carmelo Anthony - all fancy supremely talented one on one players that took a crap load of time to be a "team player."

Just like Black quarterback tend to use their athleticism to win games over staying in the pocket.

It's just true.

Blacks are more dynamic and explosive athletes than White athletes and they get by on it in team sports.

See Michael Vick, see Allen Iverson, see Tracy Mcgrady, see MJ before Phil came along, see Lebron James before he hits his supreme prime and started using his body and post ups.

White athletes tend to focus more on their skill to compensate for a lack of explosive athleticism...

see Tom Brady, see Dirk Nowitski, see Larry Bird, see Steve Nash...

Phil Jackson made a true as hell observation.
ken6199 wrote:A Rocket's loss really brought out the best of people. It makes me realize this forum is filled with jobless scumbags with their only intention to come hate the team they hate and realize their anger from their life/job/wife/kids or whatever.


:lol:
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Re: Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA 

Post#78 » by CablexDeadpool » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:24 pm

heatwillbeback wrote:talking about selfish players is one thing, and warranted if he sees fit.

talking about blacks being selfish players is where he went wrong imo.


Blacks are selfish one on one players because they are more athletic and dynamic than everyone else.

Like I said...Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant, Carmelo Anthony, Michael Jordan

When the last time you ever seen an explosive athletic one on one White American Basketball Player...that could really just dominate a game?

I haven't seen one...since like IDK Pistol Pete

And guess what they said about Pistol Pete...he played like a Black player...and that was long long long time ago.

It's just true.
ken6199 wrote:A Rocket's loss really brought out the best of people. It makes me realize this forum is filled with jobless scumbags with their only intention to come hate the team they hate and realize their anger from their life/job/wife/kids or whatever.


:lol:
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Re: Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA 

Post#79 » by Ell Curry » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:31 pm

I can't speak with intelligence about that era, but nowadays, I think some of the perception of black players as 1 on 1 driven and white guys as role players is a function of survivor bias
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias)

Most white players lack the athleticism to be big-time scorers. I know that's a generalization, but it's mostly accurate. Thus they end up having to learn to be role players - and already have offensive role player skills, like shooting and passing at a high level or else they wouldn't have dominated enough in college enough to get drafted or end up out of the league.

Look at someone like Tyreke Evans, who is a black player who does not play a team game. There is no white equivalent to him, not because of a difference in upbringing or whatever, but because there aren't really 6'5 white athletes who are dominant enough in college to get drafted in the lottery. Then, people look at Tyreke Evans and say "black players are selfish."

The real dichotomy is shooters and passers (ball movers) instead of scorers (ball stoppers) instead of whites vs blacks. As the league becomes more obsessed with finding "3 and D" players like Danny Green to compliment scorers and increase offensive efficiency through floor spacing while providing excellent D, we'll see it trickle down to the college and high school game. I'd say the floor spacing trend will lead to a slightly higher percentage of white guys in the NBA for a bit, then the trend will trickle down to college and high school ball and more coaches will look to make their 3rd and 4th best players floor spacing shooters and since (again a generalization) most white guys lack the athleticism to be great perimeter defenders (Aaron Craft is the best in the country though, again indicating that this is all nonsense) and the great "3 and D" players in the league at present are pretty much all black (Battier, Sefolosha, Rush, Danny Green, Leonard).

Basically, racial differences are not really that relevant, black players do tend to be more athletic than white players, people see race when other issues are more important, and the Spurs are geniuses. Nothing to see here.
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Re: Young Phil Jackson on white vs. black players in the NBA 

Post#80 » by Roddy B for 3 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:41 pm

DeBlazerRiddem wrote:
Jakay wrote:
narmerguy wrote:I love how people are acting like races are actually different.


Yeah, obviously they don't hang out with all those tall chinese kids and well tanned Scots. I mean, it's one thing to profile a race too much in any direction, or to assume that there aren't always exceptions to the rule, but you have to be kind of an idiot not to notice that there actually differences still.

Black people are able to handle higher heat and exposure to prolonged sunlight.[/racism]


Physical or cultural differences, ok, there can be a cautious but adult conversation.

But when someone starts suggesting black people have a "me first" attitude (or similar mental/personal peculiarity) because they are genetically black (instead of because they came up in a poor neighborhood) that is where it stops making sense, and starts sounding prejudice. Because of the culture we live in, this line must be carefully outlined.

There was just no need for the original statement by Jackson to mention skin color. He should have highlighted the problem with poor people seeing the NBA as their only way out or pitfalls of giving someone with no idea how to handle their money millions of dollars. There is no need to tie it to race, because those type of things are not dependent on the color of someones skin. They are dependent on how that person was raised, not by the genetics they carry.

Again, there can be an adult conversation about impoverished black culture, with the understanding that black culture is a result of more than their genetic make-up, and that simply having black skin does not mean that someone was raised or was part of that culture. But a poor white person is just as likely to come to the NBA with a "me first" attitude because the factors that cause that are independent of genetic heritage.


Remeber that Philly ownership basically told Wilt "to get his" (so they could turn a profit)
Was 2011 Dirk black? Because he was the best 1 on 1 payer in the league.
Is Lebron James white? He seems like a decent team player.
Manu can take anyone off the drible. I guess he grew up in the ghetto.
Bill Russell was quite the team player. Was he not?
Deron williams is just bad.

& do we count J-kidd as a white team player or as a black athlete who got to the rim at will and finished in traniston at an elite level?

Maybe we should look at individuals as individuals
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