Should Rodman have been 1996 finals MVP?

[lorak]

First of all – MJ won MVP averaging 27.3 PPG on 41.5% FG and 3 turnovers per game. He really had only one great game: 36 pts, 11/23 FG, 11/11 FT in a blowout (+22) win in game 3 at Seattle.

On the other hand Rodman was the best Bulls player in a crucial wins in game 2 (close game, +4 win), when he had 20 rebounds (tied record for offensive rebounds – 11) and game 6 (Sonics have won two previous games), when Jordan struggled badly (5/19 FG, 5 TOV), but Dennis again saved Chicago: 19 rebounds (again 11 offensive), 9 points, 5 assists and three steals. He also played mind games with Kemp (and earlier in the series with Brickowski) and eliminated him as Shawn was fouled out and most of fouls he committed on Rodman.

So Dennis was the best Bulls player in two wins (G2 and G6), Jordan in one (G3 blowout) and basically whole team played great in game 1 blowout win.

After the finals George Karl said: “As you evaluate the series, Dennis Rodman won two basketball games. Game 2 and tonight, he was the reason they were successful.” And some quotes after game 2: “Rodman was definitely the difference,” Hershey Hawkins said. “Rodman killed us,” said Vincent Askew. “There is no question he was the MVP of the game,” Karl said. “His offensive rebounds hurt us. A lot of possessions, the momentum of the game, the style of the game, and even the scoreboard might have changed.”

And that’s how that series looked – Sonics played very good defense on Jordan, who struggled with his shots and Dennis saved Bulls on many occasions with his offensive rebounds (he had total 41 ORB in the finals, that means because of Rodman Chicago had 41 additional plays! Sonics as a whole team had 67 ORB in the finals…). He also played a lot of mind games with Kemp or Brickowski and won all of them. Kemp was by far the best Sonics player and he was off his game in game 6 because of fouls on Dennis.

So tell my again, why he didn’t win finals MVP?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20ByBuATTyg[/youtube]

[Von Oswald]

Don't bother

[Sasaki]

For the same reason that Danny Green was never winning Finals MVP.

[TheBargnaniRule]

For the same reason that Danny Green was never winning Finals MVP.

If he had kept his shooting up for the whole series and the Spurs had won, I don't see why not.

[tsherkin]

Neat thread, DS.

Rodman certainly played well. MJ carried the offense while going up against a strong defensive team with a great perimeter defender, so Offense Bias plays; he was the most memorable player. For all Rodman's efforts, Kemp was a 23/10 guy on 63% TS in that series, up from 19.5/11 on 63%.

Rodman certainly had impact but Kemp played extremely well against him.

Jordan crapped himself in the second half of game two and they nearly lost but for Seattle's impotence on O, some of which was fueled by Rodman but even the perimeter guys struggled.

Jordan obliterated the Sonics in game three. Pippen lost them game 4 (1/5 FG with 5 TOV in the 4th). Rodman couldn't stop Kemp matching Jordan's 11 straight points in the third Q of game 4. Kemp was big early in Game 5. Pip, Kukoc and Kerr combined to to 3/20 from 3, and Jordan 0/4 besides (11/18 inside the arc tho).

Jordan was big early and tailed off late, playing an all around game bu shooting very poorly after the first.

Interesting series. Rodman should get more credit than he does, but Kemp kind of crapped on him much of the series, so I don't think Finals MVP makes sense.

[Reservoirdawgs]

I was only nine so I can't remember the series too terribly well, but was Jordan guarding Hawkins or Payton? Clips online seem to show he was guarding Payton a lot, but I'm not too sure. If he was, should Jordan also get the blame for Payton's .553 TS%; and .519 eFG%?

[lorak]

I was only nine so I can't remember the series too terribly well, but was Jordan guarding Hawkins or Payton?

Both.
(BTW, I stat tracked 4 games from that series - 2, 4, 5, 6 - and overall Sonics players shot 17/30 FG [8/12 3P!) vs Jordan, but MJ also forced a lot of turnovers: 15. Overall he did very good job on Payton, his pressure defense was all D level, but his team D was worse - a bit o gambling, a bit of lost rotations.)

(BTW2, through these 4 games Jordan was 9/17 FGA vs Payton, drawn 12 fouls - 15/16 FT - and overall scored 1.17 ppp vs Gary. Payton did BY FAR the worst job on MJ among Sonics defenders if Jordan had ball in his hands. However he was great in denying the pass and quite often Bulls offense collapsed, because they weren't able to give ball to Mike, because of Payton's great D.)


Tsherkin, true, Kemp played very well (IMO the best Sonics player), but Rodman didn't guard him all the time. Longely also spent some time on Shawn.

[SlimD235]

Also that was MJs first full year back, winning the championship on father's day. Bulls just when 72-10. It was always going to be Jordan's

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[Uncle Mxy]

How did MJ and Rodman do in the games that the Bulls won?

[SonicMcMahon]

Wow I love this thread.

This was my first NBA finals, and I was (became, really) a huge sonics fan.

I was only twelve, so its tough to take my perspective without a grain or two of salt, but I remember hating Rodman that series. He had a massive impact. It was amazing Shawn id manage a good series because Rodman was such a pest, and the insane amount of offensive rebounds he grabbed were such an x-factor. Additionally in terms of 'intangibles' I think both he, and Michael brought a whole bunch to the table. (In Rodman's case: frustrating the bigs, taking them out of their games; and really turning the series into a war with enemies on either side)

That said, at the time I never really questioned Finals MVP because MJ was MJ. And even though I may have been young and naive, I think that was really the right attitude about it. I still think about it today with this simple take: The Bulls may still have had enough to beat the Sonics without Rodman's impact on D and the boards, but thre's not a chance they do it without MJ. And I think that's what it comes down to. I mean it's not like there isn't a statistical argument for Michael also, but I think leadership, presence and (even more) intangibles come into pay here.

But it is interesting, how much the story of that series became Dennis' impact. The gameplan was all about MJ to start, and then Rodman wormed his way into the starring role. Kemp responded and brought up his game too, and the PF matchup became the one to watch (at least until GP switched to MJ). I've gotta say for a series that started 3-0 there was some high drama. Great series!

[Froob]

Damn, that would have been something if the sonics had come back and beaten the 72-10 bulls after being down 3-0. Probably greatest upset of all time.

[Dark_Mephisto]

Dennis was an intense individual who had the ability to get under anyone skin. And was as effective as poison ivy in that regard

[Uncle Mxy]

Dennis was an intense individual who had the ability to get under anyone skin. And was as effective as poison ivy in that regard

He learned from the best -- Laimbeer.

[tsherkin]

I was only nine so I can't remember the series too terribly well, but was Jordan guarding Hawkins or Payton?

Both.
(BTW, I stat tracked 4 games from that series - 2, 4, 5, 6 - and overall Sonics players shot 17/30 FG [8/12 3P!) vs Jordan, but MJ also forced a lot of turnovers: 15. Overall he did very good job on Payton, his pressure defense was all D level, but his team D was worse - a bit o gambling, a bit of lost rotations.)

(BTW2, through these 4 games Jordan was 9/17 FGA vs Payton, drawn 12 fouls - 15/16 FT - and overall scored 1.17 ppp vs Gary. Payton did BY FAR the worst job on MJ among Sonics defenders if Jordan had ball in his hands. However he was great in denying the pass and quite often Bulls offense collapsed, because they weren't able to give ball to Mike, because of Payton's great D.)


Tsherkin, true, Kemp played very well (IMO the best Sonics player), but Rodman didn't guard him all the time. Longely also spent some time on Shawn.

True.

It's been a while, so I can't recall, how was his attention on shooters? Thst was the "forget the wing, I'm going for the board" era for Rodman.

[Tave]

First of all – MJ won MVP averaging 27.3 PPG on 41.5% FG and 3 turnovers per game.

3 turnovers is nothing on that kind of usage. Even playing off-ball Jordan had an extremely high usage rate. His actual turnover rate is incredibly low, which is all the more impressive considering the defensive pressure he faced. Compare his turnover rate to a Magic Johnson or Chris Paul, he blows them out of the water while facing constant triple-teams. Jordan was elite at taking care of the ball, he made very very very few mental mistakes.

I was only nine so I can't remember the series too terribly well, but was Jordan guarding Hawkins or Payton? Clips online seem to show he was guarding Payton a lot, but I'm not too sure. If he was, should Jordan also get the blame for Payton's .553 TS%; and .519 eFG%?

At that point the Bulls trotted out a lot of 3-guard lineups with Harper/Scottie/Michael, letting those guys wreak havoc among opposing backcourts. They were all extremely athletic, long, tall, fundamentally-sound defenders. Phil gave them freedom to trust their instincts and help out where they saw fit. The Bulls won every game of that series in which Harper played meaningful minutes. Even on a bum knee he proved too much for opposing PGs.

Given their versatility, Toni and Dennis were perfect compliments at the forward position.

[Dr Spaceman]

I don't know enough to really say, so I'll be following this topic for sure. 11 Offensive rebounds in 2 separate games Is absurd. Couple that with Jordan having a weaker series (by his standards) and you may be on to something.

I'm glad Rodman is getting more respect around here lately. I don't think the guy won 5 titles by accident. One of the most unique talents we've ever seen. Can't believe he was compared to Danny Green earlier in this thread.

A lot of you may have seen this, but take a look: http://skepticalsports.com/?page_id=1222
Certainly got me thinking about Rodman in a different light.

[dautjazz]

If Kemp had an abortion of a series, Rodman would have a shot. MJ's offensive struggles had much to do with Payton covering MJ the last few games. Rodman has been getting very overrated on these boards.

[Flannerz]

Is is true that Rodman is the only man to win back to back championships with two different teams?

[Dark_Mephisto]

Dennis was an intense individual who had the ability to get under anyone skin. And was as effective as poison ivy in that regard

He learned from the best -- Laimbeer.

Yea "Big Bill" was an exceptional antagonist. Question, when was the last time the big hick from Kansas tricked you into saying you name backwards ?

[Belarion]

Is is true that Rodman is the only man to win back to back championships with two different teams?

Nope, Horry won 94 and 95 with the Rockets and 2000-02 with the Lakers. Ron Harper did it with the Bulls (96-98) and the Lakers (00, 01). I think those 3 are all