Breaking down the Cavs' perceived failure

shukle · Post #1 » by **shukle** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:44 am

Hi everybody! Not a regular poster here, I come pretty often on this forum because it's one of the best to actually get opinions from unbiased fans on teams around the NBA.

I am an NBA fan first and foremost, started playing bball at 6. I come from Europe and got to spend a year in Ohio, where I became a Cavs fan when they were on top of the NBA.

The reason I am starting this topic is this : pretty much all national media and all posters on here bash on the Cavs whenever the topic is brought up. The common opinion is that our front office is one the worst, if not the worst in the NBA. I read plenty about the cavs, I watch plenty too and I just don't believe this is true.

DRAFT
The most often seen argument is that Grant sucks at drafting. I think this in mainly due to the fact that he has "reached" for all of his pick, going against consensus draft boards. Because he hasn't drafted that bad actually.

Kyrie is his biggest hit. He doesn't get credit for it, but he still got the most talented player of the draft, by far. There was serious talk about how we should have drafted Derrick Willians and Brandon Knight instead of Kyrie... Remember he had only played 11 games in college.

TT was a reach, not projected to go any higher than 8 in most draft boards. Everybody was expecting us to take JV, and Grant gets bashed for not taking Kawhi or Klay Thompson. 12 other GM's also passed on them and it's not like they are franchise changing players either. They just play for winning organisation and therefore are seen as winners. TT has improved every year and is actually a really serviceable player. Great rebounder, good defender, great attitude and motor. He is no franchise player either, but I hope he stays a cavs his whole life. Down the road, his role is probably coming off the bench unless he actually develops a reliable jumper. He just switch shooting hands and has been getting more and more confortable with it. His FTs are already way improved. JV is not turning heads either, statisticly, TT and him are pretty comparable...

Dion Waiters is the streakiest of streaky players. Grant could have had Barnes or Drummond instead. While he did miss out on Drummond, so did 8 other GMs. Drummond had bust written all over him with what he showed in college. Barnes is not playing any better than Waiters either. He made a name for himself in the playoffs when he played stretch 4 and the defense was leaving him open all series to double team Thompson and Curry. Since then, he hasnt done much. Waiters on the other has carried the Cavs numerous times this season. He is one of those rare players capable of taking over a game. He truly gets into the paint at will and is an improving shooter. His defense is also getting better everyday. I honestly think Waiters will play in an All Star game someday.

Bennett has been simply terrible this year and it looks like Grant really blew this one. It's still early though and I would wait until next year to know if he can actually become serviceable. He didn't have an offseason and doesn't get any playing time in Browns system so he can't develop any rythm... Right now, he looks scared as sh*t out there. When you watch him play at UNLV, it's clear it's not the same player. He will probably never become an AllStar, but he is a big body with a good looking stroke. Those are more and more valuable everyday. Also, who has played well in the top 5? Oladipo is doing ok, but I think Waiters is just as good. Zeller is doing bad, Porter is playing like crap, Len can't see the floor either, Noel hasn't played a single game... It's not like he really missed out on someone here, the 2013 DRAFT sucked big time, thats for sure...

Karasev and Tyler Zeller have been playing ok. Karasev hasn't seen the floor much, but he's got loads of potential and an amazing stroke. I am sure he'll be a player someday. Zeller is actually a good back up C. He runs the floor, he has range and has a great work ethic. Give a couple years to develop his body and his post game and he'll be very fine.

So in my opinion, while Grant isn't Presti at drafting, he isn't that bad either. I would say he is average, definitely not the worst. I'd give him a B- or a C+

TRADES / FA
All national media burnt us for the Deng trade, saying we gave up too much for a rental and should have tanked for Embid or Wiggins. At some point, you have to become a winning organisation and going to the lottery again and again isn't the best for this. We had statisticly the WORST starting SF in the league and replaced him with an All Star... All of this while giving up a highly protected pick. I think it was a pretty great freaking deal! We are 4-2 since the trade and 3-2 on the road (having previously won 2 road games the whole year...)

Grant has also amassed a **** ton of assets from Sessions, Hickson, Leuer and a whole bunch of average players, I'd say that's pretty good job on his part.

He signed Delly out of nowhere, he's been great. He signed Miles who's been good too. He overpayed for Jack a little and Jack finds himself without a role on this team now that Waiters is the sixth man(which he is hand made for). So Jack wasn't that great a signing. Bynum allowed him to get Deng for next to nothing.

To me, Grant gets an A here

So why is our record so awful?
Well, this is really hard to say. We are actually better against the West than against the East, we are playing above 500 bball at home and absolutely suck on the road... So it looks like we play better against better opponent and also tend to lose focus on the road (not having the fans to keep you motivated). Looks like the mark of a young team...

Brown is also to blame. He has emphasized defense so much, that our offense has been terrible at times. But we are getting better on both side now. He always said that it would be a process. He has to turn a tanking franchise (because yes, we were obviously tanking, fielding the All DLeague/Undrafted team) into a winning one. Not gonna happen in one day... He has done a decent job, while not great by any means. He is getting results though. Our defense is much improved for the Byron Scott days.

I think if we havent improved as much, it's because of Kyrie. He hasn't improved really, and you could make a solid case for him even degressing. He hasn't learnt to run a team yet. He is a great passer, but just doesn't now how to run a team. He has always been such a gifted scorer that he's never really had to run a team to win. He also had a huge shooting slump to start the year, which didn't help at all. But he has also shown sign of improvement. He has run the team properly at times, using his amazing ball ahndling skills to break defenses and find the open man. He has shown a knack for stealing the ball on defense. But he also sucks at defending right now. He is getting better, but still gets burnt way too often. Therefore, when Kyrie's shot isn't falling, well he doesn't contribute to winning at all.
I believe he'll get it eventually, but Kyrie is my biggest concern with this team.

His first two years, he looked like a future MVP. However, I never thought of Kyrie as a pure bball player. Kyrie is an artist, a celebrity. I think bball is a way to get there for him, I just don't know if he has the drive to be the best he can be. I really hope he works like crazy this offseason and comes back more mature and ready to finally take this team on his back and carry it to the playoffs...

Now, this was a long post! I hope you guys can contribute and give me your opinions on my beloved Cavs. It's just so curious we get bashed so much, I wanna to understand why!

Razorback · Post #2 » by **Razorback** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:12 am

tl;dr, the Cleveland organization is full of none other than failures.

j_n · Post #3 » by **j_n** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:12 am

To keep it short:
1.Kyrie was clearly a good pick

2.Thompson was a solid pick but should have went with Val

3.Waiters is a selfish player that does nothing but score inefficiently and plays defense when he feels like it, horrible pick.

4.Bennet looks terrible so far but I still think he can turn this around.

Overall, when you consider what was available, the Cavs get to much criticism for their draft choices imo, TT is very underated and Bennet needs more time.
The only truly horrible pick imo was Waiters.

shukle · Post #4 » by **shukle** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:16 am

Waiters isn't selfish at all, he is just streaky. He is actually good at running the team. When he feels safe (as in, he knows he'll have the ball in his hands), he runs the team better than Kyrie.

KL78192020 · Post #5 » by **KL78192020** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:18 am

That Bennett pick is just awful, he was expected to go late lottery, should've taken Dipo. TT is looking better, Dion looks like he needs a change of scenery. Its more so the fit of these players that have been drafted. Looks like the Cavs have major chemistry issues. Oh and coach Brown stinks.

Liver_Pooty · Post #6 » by **Liver_Pooty** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:19 am

Really too much hate on the Bennett pick. Hes has been horrific, but everyone in the draft other than perhaps Oladipo, MCW, and Burke have been as well. What a pathetic draft class.

DarkXaero · Post #7 » by **DarkXaero** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:27 am

Liver_Pooty wrote:Really too much hate on the Bennett pick. Hes has been horrific, but everyone in the draft other than perhaps Oladipo, MCW, and Burke have been as well. What a pathetic draft class.

It wouldn't be considered so bad if Cavs didn't reach so much to pick him. NO ONE expected Bennett to go first and for a reason. Oladipo was the far safer pick.

Liver_Pooty · Post #8 » by **Liver_Pooty** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:28 am

DarkXaero wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:Really too much hate on the Bennett pick. Hes has been horrific, but everyone in the draft other than perhaps Oladipo, MCW, and Burke have been as well. What a pathetic draft class.
It wouldn't be considered so bad if Cavs didn't reach so much to pick him. NO ONE expected Bennett to go first and for a reason. Oladipo was the far safer pick.

But no one really thought Oladipo would go first as well. Most mocks I saw had Noel going first. Maybe the Cavs thought Bennett could solve their problem at SF? Who knows.

Altered_Beast · Post #9 » by **Altered_Beast** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:33 am

how about jarret jack and earl clark? also deng wants no part of a rebuild hes gone next season

and bringing back a coach you had fired after only 2 seasons?

basically you said kyrie is good which we all know and that TT/waiters/Bennett will some day be good.

my opinion on the cavs as a bad franchise have not changed at all

Rasho_libre · Post #10 » by **Rasho_libre** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:35 am

j_n wrote:To keep it short:
1.Kyrie was clearly a good pick

2.Thompson was a solid pick but should have went with Val

3.Waiters is a selfish player that does nothing but score inefficiently and plays defense when he feels like it, horrible pick.

4.Bennet looks terrible so far but I still think he can turn this around.

Overall, when you consider what was available, the Cavs get to much criticism for their draft choices imo, TT is very underated and Bennet needs more time.
The only truly horrible pick imo was Waiters.

JV under you guys would be developing far faster than he is here, over here our coach likes to play Hayes over him at times. JV has his problems like most 21 year old centers. But next to kyrie his development would have been further ahead. Most teams aren't like us, they develop talent in 3 years what it takes us 5-6 to do. We love guys like Allan Anderson, chuck Hayes and Aaron gray to stay on the treadmill.

JungleCat022 · Post #11 » by **JungleCat022** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:37 am

j_n wrote:To keep it short:
1.Kyrie was clearly a good pick

2.Thompson was a solid pick but should have went with Val

3.Waiters is a selfish player that does nothing but score inefficiently and plays defense when he feels like it, horrible pick.

4.Bennet looks terrible so far but I still think he can turn this around.

Overall, when you consider what was available, the Cavs get to much criticism for their draft choices imo, TT is very underated and Bennet needs more time.
The only truly horrible pick imo was Waiters.

Clearly never watched Waiters play, he's a better and more willing distributor than Kyrie.

j_n · Post #12 » by **j_n** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:40 am

Rasho_libre wrote:\
JV under you guys would be developing far faster than he is here, over here our coach likes to play Hayes over him at times. JV has his problems like most 21 year old centers. But next to kyrie his development would have been further ahead. Most teams aren't like us, they develop talent in 3 years what it takes us 5-6 to do. We love guys like Allan Anderson, chuck Hayes and Aaron gray to stay on the treadmill.

Yep, I think Val could really become a great player, thought he would get some more touches with Gay gone.

JungleCat022 · Post #13 » by **JungleCat022** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:43 am

JungleCat022 wrote:
j_n wrote:To keep it short:
1.Kyrie was clearly a good pick

2.Thompson was a solid pick but should have went with Val

3.Waiters is a selfish player that does nothing but score inefficiently and plays defense when he feels like it, horrible pick.

4.Bennet looks terrible so far but I still think he can turn this around.

Overall, when you consider what was available, the Cavs get to much criticism for their draft choices imo, TT is very underated and Bennet needs more time.
The only truly horrible pick imo was Waiters.

Clearly never watched Waiters play, he's a better and more willing distributor than Kyrie.

Which player is the best passer?

1. Chris Paul, L.A. Clippers -- 46.7%

2. Rajon Rondo, Boston; Ricky Rubio, Minnesota -- 16.7%

4. Steve Nash, L.A. Lakers -- 6.7%

Also receiving votes: Marc Gasol, Memphis; LeBron James, Miami; Greivis Vasquez, Sacramento; Dion Waiters, Cleveland

http://www.nba.com/news/2013-14-nba-gm-survey/

Liver_Pooty · Post #14 » by **Liver_Pooty** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:44 am

Waiters and Irving would co exist perfectly if they could both set aside their egos and just play the freaking game.

shukle · Post #15 » by **shukle** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:56 am

Altered_Beast wrote:how about jarret jack and earl clark? also deng wants no part of a rebuild hes gone next season

and bringing back a coach you had fired after only 2 seasons?

basically you said kyrie is good which we all know and that TT/waiters/Bennett will some day be good.

my opinion on the cavs as a bad franchise have not changed at all

Jack was brought in to be a veteran next to Kyrie and Waiters, help bring them along. It made sense, even though on paper the fit is pretty bad, they are all shoot first guards. From what I know, Jack was like plan D this summer. The problem is, Brown has put Waiters at the sixth man role, where he belongs I believe. Jack is also a sixthman, he has therefore fallen out of rotation.
Bad signing from Grant

Clark was also a bad signing. He is a serviceable player, but has no IQ and no dribble. All he does is drain trees. This was supposed to be Bennett's role. Clark was probably also plan D, they were hoping he could be a 3. Obviously, he isn't.

Bringing back a coach we fired. Well... Why not? I don't see anything bad with this. It was a completely different team. I wanted Karl honestly. I didn't support the signing. Brown isn't bad but he isn't good either. I understand the need for a strong defense, and I think Brown will in time have this team playing top 5 defense. I just hope our offensive coordinator russian guy is good at his job...

And yes I said that because I believe the Cavs are much better than there record suggest and I think the Deng trade might be what finally brings this team together. He is everything we needed :
- had statisticly the worst starting SF in the league (Gee)
- needed a veteran presence next to Kyrie and Waiters
- All Star and 2 way player, will be a vocal leader for our defense and bust his ass off.

I really hope we are able to retain him. Now that he is on our team, we at least have a shot. I hope our front office isn't waiting for James decision to offer Deng a contract. Deng is a keeper, he fits perfectly on this team.

shukle · Post #16 » by **shukle** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:58 am

Liver_Pooty wrote:Waiters and Irving would co exist perfectly if they could both set aside their egos and just play the freaking game.

this is very true. Hope Deng and Varejao can keep inspire them.

Altered_Beast · Post #17 » by **Altered_Beast** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:02 am

shukle wrote:
Altered_Beast wrote:how about jarret jack and earl clark? also deng wants no part of a rebuild hes gone next season

and bringing back a coach you had fired after only 2 seasons?

basically you said kyrie is good which we all know and that TT/waiters/Bennett will some day be good.

my opinion on the cavs as a bad franchise have not changed at all

Jack was brought in to be a veteran next to Kyrie and Waiters, help bring them along. It made sense, even though on paper the fit is pretty bad, they are all shoot first guards. From what I know, Jack was like plan D this summer. The problem is, Brown has put Waiters at the sixth man role, where he belongs I believe. Jack is also a sixthman, he has therefore fallen out of rotation.
Bad signing from Grant

Clark was also a bad signing. He is a serviceable player, but has no IQ and no dribble. All he does is drain trees. This was supposed to be Bennett's role. Clark was probably also plan D, they were hoping he could be a 3. Obviously, he isn't.

Bringing back a coach we fired. Well... Why not? I don't see anything bad with this. It was a completely different team. I wanted Karl honestly. I didn't support the signing. Brown isn't bad but he isn't good either. I understand the need for a strong defense, and I think Brown will in time have this team playing top 5 defense. I just hope our offensive coordinator russian guy is good at his job...

And yes I said that because I believe the Cavs are much better than there record suggest and I think the Deng trade might be what finally brings this team together. He is everything we needed :
- had statisticly the worst starting SF in the league (Gee)
- needed a veteran presence next to Kyrie and Waiters
- All Star and 2 way player, will be a vocal leader for our defense and bust his ass off.

I really hope we are able to retain him. Now that he is on our team, we at least have a shot. I hope our front office isn't waiting for James decision to offer Deng a contract. Deng is a keeper, he fits perfectly on this team.

the thing is if the cleveland fans ideal situation of lebron returning doesnt happen do you think deng wants to resign in cleveland. the guy is on the last leg of his career and its obvious to me that he really wants to win/contend. im not sure cleveland is ready to contend next year or the year after for that matter

shukle · Post #18 » by **shukle** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:25 am

Altered_Beast wrote:
shukle wrote:
Altered_Beast wrote:how about jarret jack and earl clark? also deng wants no part of a rebuild hes gone next season

and bringing back a coach you had fired after only 2 seasons?

basically you said kyrie is good which we all know and that TT/waiters/Bennett will some day be good.

my opinion on the cavs as a bad franchise have not changed at all

Jack was brought in to be a veteran next to Kyrie and Waiters, help bring them along. It made sense, even though on paper the fit is pretty bad, they are all shoot first guards. From what I know, Jack was like plan D this summer. The problem is, Brown has put Waiters at the sixth man role, where he belongs I believe. Jack is also a sixthman, he has therefore fallen out of rotation.
Bad signing from Grant

Clark was also a bad signing. He is a serviceable player, but has no IQ and no dribble. All he does is drain trees. This was supposed to be Bennett's role. Clark was probably also plan D, they were hoping he could be a 3. Obviously, he isn't.

Bringing back a coach we fired. Well... Why not? I don't see anything bad with this. It was a completely different team. I wanted Karl honestly. I didn't support the signing. Brown isn't bad but he isn't good either. I understand the need for a strong defense, and I think Brown will in time have this team playing top 5 defense. I just hope our offensive coordinator russian guy is good at his job...

And yes I said that because I believe the Cavs are much better than there record suggest and I think the Deng trade might be what finally brings this team together. He is everything we needed :
- had statisticly the worst starting SF in the league (Gee)
- needed a veteran presence next to Kyrie and Waiters
- All Star and 2 way player, will be a vocal leader for our defense and bust his ass off.

I really hope we are able to retain him. Now that he is on our team, we at least have a shot. I hope our front office isn't waiting for James decision to offer Deng a contract. Deng is a keeper, he fits perfectly on this team.

the thing is if the cleveland fans ideal situation of lebron returning doesnt happen do you think deng wants to resign in cleveland. the guy is on the last leg of his career and its obvious to me that he really wants to win/contend. im not sure cleveland is ready to contend next year or the year after for that matter

I think we have a good chance at resigning Deng. We will hopefully finish this season strong and gel. Deng has said all the right things. Without trading for him, we wouldn't have had a chance. Deng will be getting offers in the FA market, that's for sure. He is everything you want your starting SF to be. I also believe he could slide to the four.

As for LBJ... Do we really wanna bring this topic up? Honestly, there is a chance he comes back. It would possibly be the biggest storyline in sports history. We all know he is considering it. LBJ wants to be remembered the best. Jordan could retire, comeback and keep winning. Maybe LBJ can switch teams and keep winning for his hometown, a city that hasn't had any championchips of any kind in almost 60 years? I think Cleveland is the only team that has a chance at getting him. We won't know before the end of this season obviously and I don't think our front office should wait on him to do anything. We cannot afford to wait for him, we already did, it didn't turn out good. But we MUST have room to give a max contract this summer, and maybe next summer. I think Lebron will come back, it's too good of a story and the perfect way to erase the only stain in his career. It will depend on Miami's results in the playoffs. If they win, it will be harder for them to break up.

JrueHK · Post #19 » by **JrueHK** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:28 am

City is cursed

That is all.

Novocaine · Post #20 » by **Novocaine** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:40 am

shukle wrote:
So why is our record so awful?
Well, this is really hard to say.

Is that you, Fox Butterfield?

It's only hard to say if one accepts the panglossian premise you outlined up to the point you faced that question. Of course, if one assumes a prior an organization has very good management and coaching, it automatically becomes really hard to say why they have a bad record. Obviously, the causation runs the other way around.

I do agree about Irving though. His reputation has been far above his actual production since his rookie year. The disconnect between people's expectations and results are the reason the Cavs are perceived as a failure and the main factor for that disconnection is the gap between Irving's reputation and actual contributions.