Is Nikola Jokic a franchise level talent?

[walk with me]

What he is saying is that talking about Embiid is irrelevant. This thread is strictly directed about Jokic. I only made that comment about Embiid because I was in a troll mood and wanted to make a sarcastic remark. I'm sorry.

Fair enough.. answer is still no lol

[Nuggets_Talk]

lol I don't care

Exactly. The same reason embiid should have never been brought up in the first place.

I don't care about your thoughts

Embiid future brighter then any center in the nba today and health pending will be better then jokic peak for peak

You do. And many players will be better than embiid. Assuming he stays healthy of course.

Does anyone want to start a jokic vs embiid thread so these insecure fans can feel better?

Btw I will also vote for embiid once it is started. Just want to get this garbage out of a thread that jokic has earned with his recent play.

[Nuggets_Talk]

Exactly. The same reason embiid should have never been brought up in the first place.

I don't care about your thoughts

Embiid future brighter then any center in the nba today and health pending will be better then jokic peak for peak

What he is saying is that talking about Embiid is irrelevant. This thread is strictly directed about Jokic. I only made that comment about Embiid because I was in a troll mood and wanted to make a sarcastic remark. I'm sorry.

#respect

[T-d0t]

He's good but franchise center? Too far

[naabzor]

If we are talking about talent I mean, absolutely.

[turnmeup88]

I don't think so.

For comparison, I consider Cousins and Davis to be franchise level bigs, and think its highly likely Embiid and KAT will join them.

I think Blake is a borderline case, who might be able to be one in different circumstances, but would need defensive help.

I don't consider Marc Gasol productive enough to be one, and it was very borderline whether his brother ever truly was either.


I think Jokic has a shot to be like a 3rd Gasol brother. I don't think he's ever going to be a dominant enough scorer, or a strong enough defender, to truly be "the franchise", but he's got a chance to be a strong #2/borderline All Star guy every year.

How is Cousins a franchise level big, but beither Gasol was? Hell, how is Marc Gasol not productive enough?

What reasoning did you use to reach this conclusion?

Sigh. Ok, look, RGM is touchy about too much comparative stuff being done out here on the general board instead of the Player Comparisons board. Nonetheless, the widespread Boogie ignorance on RGM has long been a sore spot with me, so I'm going to do this quickly.

Marc:
The single most productive NBA season Marc Gasol has ever had is this one so far, and he's produced:
33.9min 19.9pts 6.2reb 4.3ast 1.0stl 1.5blk

Which puts him 35th in the league in scoring, and 61st in the league in rebounding.

His best full season was 2 years ago when he produced:
33.2min 17.4pts 7.8reb 3.8ast 0.9stl 1.6blk

Those are, none of them, franchise player level numbers. That's a star, not a superstar.

Pau:
The single best season Pau ever put up tyring to carry Memphis on his own was:
36.2min 20.8pts 9.8reb 3.4ast 0.5stl 2.1blk

That's getting close to franchise level. Unfortunately it was one of only two years he ever broke 20ppg in a 15 year career. He was built to be a #2.

His best year as a #2 to Kobe was:
37.0min 18.3pts 11.3reb 3.4ast 0.6stl 1.7blk


Cousins:
Now let me demonstrate the gap between a skilled 18-20ppg star player, and a carry you every night franchise player. Cousins the last 4 years:

32.4min 22.7pts 11.7reb 2.9ast 1.5stl 1.3blk
34.1min 24.1pts 12.7reb 3.6ast 1.5stl 1.7blk
34.6min 26.9pts 11.5reb 3.3ast 1.6stl 1.4blk
34.7min 29.1pts 10.4reb 3.5ast 1.3stl 1.5blk


Conclusion:
So to review:
Franchise player: 34.1min 24.1pts 12.7reb 3.6ast 1.5stl 1.7blk
Not franchise player: 33.2min 17.4pts 7.8reb 3.8ast 0.9stl 1.6blk

Franchise player: 34.7min 29.1pts 10.4reb 3.5ast 1.3stl 1.5blk
Not franchise player: 36.2min 20.8pts 9.8reb 3.4ast 0.5stl 2.1blk

Having better teammates has never been a franchise player qualification. And if it is, Jokic is in trouble anyway. marc has made 2 All Star games in 9 years. Pay made 6 in 16, although only 1 as the main guy in Memphis (then 3 as Kobe's caddy, and 2 more dubious ones in Chicago). All Star caliber bigs, borderline All Star bigs. I can see Jokic reaching that level.


Jokic:
And to bring that all back to Jokic, his per36 right now is 17.7pts 11.1reb 5.3ast 0.9stl 1.0blk. Last year it was 16.5pts 11.6reb 3.9ast 1.6stl 1.0blk. That looks to me to be a guy headed much more down the Gasol path than the Boogie/KAT/Embiid 25-10 massive production path.

Those per 36 numbers are quite ridiculous when you consider the guy is only 21 years old. What tells us that by the age of 27/28 he will be unable of producing 25/12/7/2/1 - with free throw and 3 pt efficiency.

I think it's hard to compare a guy like Cousins (who I think is a franchise talent - not player yet) with a guy like Gasol. Cousins has always been asked to do it all because he has an awful franchise and management around him. Put Cousins on that Memphis team with Conley/Allen/Randolph instead of Gasol and he wouldn't put up as many points or boards. This is why using stats as a reference point is flawed. A franchise player should either be defined as a guy who can be your number 1 player and can lead you to a championship (essentially 4-8 players at any time in the league) or defined as a guy who can be the best player on a team and who makes your team better / has tremendous potential / or you can build around and compete in the coming seasons

[Pachinko_]

He's only 21, geez
The dude was a kid with man boobs 5 years ago... if he can do that now, imagine what he will do when he gets to something near average NBA athleticism in a couple of years.

[Riko]

If you make a discussion and that discussion lead to tell Cousins is better than M.Gasol then your argument are wrong.
When a "franchise player" can't win more than 33 games/season then your "franchise player" isn't a franchise player. Give me a 17-7-4 player if it means that he will lead my team to the PO over a 30-20-10 guy that wins (at best) 33 games.

Put Cousins in Memphis and he blows even that franchise, there are some players that worth less than their talent.

[LacosteM]

Most definitely. He's only 21 and already one of the most versatile bigs in the league. The closest comparison I have for him is Marc Gasol, altough Jokic is way ahead in development than Marc was at 21.

Also I can see a bit of Vlade's game with him in terms of his post-game and passing.

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

He's only 21, geez
The dude was a kid with man boobs 5 years ago... if he can do that now, imagine what he will do when he gets to something near average NBA athleticism in a couple of years.

Posting so people can see that it's not a hyperbole

[Synciere]

He isn't producing like one yet, but I don't see how someone can say he doesn't have the potential when he's just 21.

I think in time, yeah, he will be. Even if he doesn't have elite scoring, he'll be an elite offensive player with his assist numbers and he's still a very good rebounder.

The Nuggets have a good problem in that they two good young centers. I like Jokic more than Nurkic, because I like passing big men, but you can't deny the impact of an rim defender that the Nuggets have in Nurkic. I'm not sure I'd give either of them up yet.

[NuggetsWY]

Big time Jokic fan here: Some players are drafted with a label of "Franchise level talent". Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. Other players acquire that label over time.

Is Jokic a "franchise level talent"? Probably not yet. Could he be? Sure - consider Hassan Whiteside; 2 years in Sacramento and barely played. 2 years out of the NBA. Joined Miami in the middle of the next season and after just one-and-one-half seasons was given a "franchise level tag" and the corresponding paycheck. So who knows what can happen?

What I do strongly believe is that Jokic makes the players around him better. He's not a rim protector but he's a pretty good defender and is always providing help-defense. His passing is already becoming "the talk of the town". He's got some low post moves but it's not his strength but he can hit 3s and a decent rate. I'm just glad he's on the Nuggets!

[Throwback24]

He's winning me week after week in fantasy.

[E-Balla]

Yes.
He can be the greatest passing big we've seen.
His skillset is rare for a big.
He can build up his body and he can improve in D.
You can work on these things, but his arsenal offensively is pure talent.

I'm not sure if he can be the greatest but he's as good as young C. Webb was IMO and that's crazy.

[The Rebel]

It if funny that every time Jokic comes up people cannot wait to bring up their favorite young big and say Jokic is not as good as that guy. What that tells me is that people either have no clue how good Jokic is, or they are insecure knowing that what Jokic has shown is very rare and if he and the Nuggets can capitalize on it he has the chance to revolutionize the game, a center that passes better than many starting PGs in the league, that can go in the low block, that has 3 point range, and can run the offense from the high post is very very rare.

[um.]

It if funny that every time Jokic comes up people cannot wait to bring up their favorite young big and say Jokic is not as good as that guy. What that tells me is that people either have no clue how good Jokic is, or they are insecure knowing that what Jokic has shown is very rare and if he and the Nuggets can capitalize on it he has the chance to revolutionize the game, a center that passes better than many starting PGs in the league, that can go in the low block, that has 3 point range, and can run the offense from the high post is very very rare.

they mad

[youngthegiant]

Denver has been searching for that exciting star player ever since Melo left. They may just have found him. Jokic is bringing people back to the Pepsi Center and we are 5-2 ever since he entered the starting lineup. Denver has two more draft picks this year and a ton of capspace to bring in a Free Agent. They're are in great shape for next season and even have a chance to make the playoffs and gain momentum.

[eathb_au]

Jokic must be reading this thread atm because he's like taking every shot for Denver.

14 points in the first quarter against Embiid/Noel.

[XPeak]

He always gets into foul trouble though since he moved in the starting lineup. He needs to control that, 3 fouls against Embiid now. He has been terrific as usual in the first half though.

[Cappy_Smurf]

It if funny that every time Jokic comes up people cannot wait to bring up their favorite young big and say Jokic is not as good as that guy. What that tells me is that people either have no clue how good Jokic is, or they are insecure knowing that what Jokic has shown is very rare and if he and the Nuggets can capitalize on it he has the chance to revolutionize the game, a center that passes better than many starting PGs in the league, that can go in the low block, that has 3 point range, and can run the offense from the high post is very very rare.

Glass houses, my friend. It's been two years since you first told me that both Jokic and Nurkic were/will be as good as Gobert or better. I like Jokic and believe he will be a very good player, but you've been hyping him for a while now, and I'm still waiting for him to be as good or better than Rudy. Also, I might have been able to take you more seriously if you had just hyped Jokic instead of claiming both those guys were better.

Anyway, I do agree that a lot of fans lack appreciation for how good Jokic is because they haven't watched him play much, but you've been just as guilty in regards to Gobert, IMO.