2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

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Who will win MVP?

Curry
12
3%
Durant
3
1%
Harden
112
31%
LeBron
42
12%
Leonard
60
17%
Westbrook
109
30%
Other
20
6%
 
Total votes: 358

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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1321 » by RightToCensor » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:30 am

It's funny the way Harden and Westbrook changed the way fans and writers see turnovers and how much they weigh them to the offensive burden you carry. When your usage is sky high and you're 99% of your offense, turnovers are bound to happen and as a team you live with those mistakes because you know he'll make up for it. Those two are approximately averaging 30 points and 10 assists per game while winning, you can excuse or ignore the 4 or 5 giveaways they've had.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1322 » by RightToCensor » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:39 am

LivingLegend wrote:Whose team is 1-7 without him playing? LeBron

Westbrook and Harden have yet to take a day off to relax and regroup.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1323 » by LivingLegend » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:46 am

RightToCensor wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:Whose team is 1-7 without him playing? LeBron

Westbrook and Harden have yet to take a day off to relax and regroup.


Westbrook and Harden havent played 14 years in the NBA while playing in 6 straight NBA Finals with 6 straight 100+ game seasons.

LeBron FG- 54%
Harden FG- 44%
Westbrook FG- 42%

LeBron 3PT- 40%
Harden 3PT- 35%
Westbrook 3PT- 34%

LeBron 4th QTR FG- 1st
Harden 4th QTR FG- 64th
Westbrook 4th QTR FG- 44th

LeBron Turnovers- 263
Harden Turnovers- 408
Westbrook Turnovers 370

Lebron Win%- .737
Harden Win%- .686
Westbrook Win%- .580

LeBron On/Off- +15.1
Harden On/Off- +5.5
Westbrook On/Off- 11.1

LeBron FGs Missed- Not in top 25
Harden FGs Missed- 1st
Westbrook FGs Missed- 7th

LeBron's Team- #1 Seed
Hardens Team- #3 Seed
Westbrook's Team- #6 Seed

LeBron FT Attempts- 437- 13th
Harden FT Attempts- 770 - 1st
Westbrook FT Attempts 741- 2nd

LeBron Usage- 29
Harden Usage- 35
Westbrook Usage- 41

LeBron Defense- Top Tier
Harden Defense- Below Average
Westbrook Defense- Below Average
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Re: RE: Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1324 » by K_chile22 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:56 am

LivingLegend wrote:Here is the stat that cannot be overlooked when comparing the 2. All time turnover record. James Harden has absolutly obliterated HIS OWN all time turnover record and there is still 15 games left to play. Harden is going to wind up with OVER 800 turnovers in the past 2 seasons. That is absolutely inexcusable. Westbrook is going to finish 2nd all time in turnovers after this year as well.


1. James Harden---408 Turnovers----2016/2017
2. James Harden---374 Turnovers---2015/2016
3. Russell Westbrook---370 Turnovers---2016/2017
4. Artis Gilmore---366 Turnovers---1977/1978
5. Kevin Porter---360 Turnovers---1977/1978

His turnover rate isn't that high historicaly. Perfect storm of usage, pace, and minutes played there, for both Harden and Westbrook.
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Re: RE: Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1325 » by LivingLegend » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:04 am

K_chile22 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:Here is the stat that cannot be overlooked when comparing the 2. All time turnover record. James Harden has absolutly obliterated HIS OWN all time turnover record and there is still 15 games left to play. Harden is going to wind up with OVER 800 turnovers in the past 2 seasons. That is absolutely inexcusable. Westbrook is going to finish 2nd all time in turnovers after this year as well.


1. James Harden---408 Turnovers----2016/2017
2. James Harden---374 Turnovers---2015/2016
3. Russell Westbrook---370 Turnovers---2016/2017
4. Artis Gilmore---366 Turnovers---1977/1978
5. Kevin Porter---360 Turnovers---1977/1978

His turnover rate isn't that high historicaly. Perfect storm of usage, pace, and minutes played there, for both Harden and Westbrook.


Sure, but that also works AGAINST his raw stats. If you believe Westbrook/Harden only have that amount of turnovers because of usage--then you have to also say that the only reason their raw stats are so high is because they control the ball that much and they should be that high because of how many shots they launch leading to inflated points/rebounds/assists.

Which is why I am basing my argument on MVP off of more granular stats like percentages and on/off to paint a better picture of effectiveness. Which LeBron destroys both Harden/Westbrook in nearly every category as I listed. But here they are again.

LeBron FG- 54%
Harden FG- 44%
Westbrook FG- 42%

LeBron 3PT- 40%
Harden 3PT- 35%
Westbrook 3PT- 34%


LeBron 4th QTR FG- 1st
Harden 4th QTR FG- 64th
Westbrook 4th QTR FG- 44th


LeBron Turnovers- 263
Harden Turnovers- 408
Westbrook Turnovers 370

LeBron On/Off- +15.1
Harden On/Off- +5.5
Westbrook On/Off- 11.1


Lebron Win%- .737
Harden Win%- .686
Westbrook Win%- .580

LeBron FGs Missed- Not in top 25
Harden FGs Missed- 1st
Westbrook FGs Missed- 7th

LeBron's Team- #1 Seed
Hardens Team- #3 Seed
Westbrook's Team- #6 Seed

LeBron FT Attempts- 437- 13th
Harden FT Attempts- 770 - 1st
Westbrook FT Attempts 741- 2nd

LeBron Usage- 29
Harden Usage- 35
Westbrook Usage- 41

LeBron Defense- Top Tier
Harden Defense- Below Average
Westbrook Defense- Below Average
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1326 » by sophie23 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:55 am

LivingLegend wrote:
K_chile22 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:Here is the stat that cannot be overlooked when comparing the 2. All time turnover record. James Harden has absolutly obliterated HIS OWN all time turnover record and there is still 15 games left to play. Harden is going to wind up with OVER 800 turnovers in the past 2 seasons. That is absolutely inexcusable. Westbrook is going to finish 2nd all time in turnovers after this year as well.


1. James Harden---408 Turnovers----2016/2017
2. James Harden---374 Turnovers---2015/2016
3. Russell Westbrook---370 Turnovers---2016/2017
4. Artis Gilmore---366 Turnovers---1977/1978
5. Kevin Porter---360 Turnovers---1977/1978

His turnover rate isn't that high historicaly. Perfect storm of usage, pace, and minutes played there, for both Harden and Westbrook.


Sure, but that also works AGAINST his raw stats. If you believe Westbrook/Harden only have that amount of turnovers because of usage--then you have to also say that the only reason their raw stats are so high is because they control the ball that much and they should be that high because of how many shots they launch leading to inflated points/rebounds/assists.

Which is why I am basing my argument on MVP off of more granular stats like percentages and on/off to paint a better picture of effectiveness. Which LeBron destroys both Harden/Westbrook in nearly every category as I listed. But here they are again.

LeBron FG- 54%
Harden FG- 44%
Westbrook FG- 42%

LeBron 3PT- 40%
Harden 3PT- 35%
Westbrook 3PT- 34%


LeBron 4th QTR FG- 1st
Harden 4th QTR FG- 64th
Westbrook 4th QTR FG- 44th


LeBron Turnovers- 263
Harden Turnovers- 408
Westbrook Turnovers 370

LeBron On/Off- +15.1
Harden On/Off- +5.5
Westbrook On/Off- 11.1


Lebron Win%- .737
Harden Win%- .686
Westbrook Win%- .580

LeBron FGs Missed- Not in top 25
Harden FGs Missed- 1st
Westbrook FGs Missed- 7th

LeBron's Team- #1 Seed
Hardens Team- #3 Seed
Westbrook's Team- #6 Seed

LeBron FT Attempts- 437- 13th
Harden FT Attempts- 770 - 1st
Westbrook FT Attempts 741- 2nd

LeBron Usage- 29
Harden Usage- 35
Westbrook Usage- 41

LeBron Defense- Top Tier
Harden Defense- Below Average
Westbrook Defense- Below Average


1. On/0ff

Against:

A. Lebron on/off includes minutes on the ROAD, most B2B games in which he didnt play
Indiana: -10
Mem: -8
Det: -16
Chi: -18
Mia: -28

B. Kawhi and Harden are on teams which have more balanced roster.

2. Lebron FG%, 4th qtr FG%, fg missed vs. JH and RW

Lbj - 41% of shots lebron made are 0-3 f. from basket. His efficiency is 77%.

Jh - 24% are from 0-3f. Efficiency 70%.

Rw - 29% are from 0-3f. Eff. 58%

As we can see different shot selection. It produces those variances in fg%.

Then about 3s JH is more a volume shooter with more arsenal, more shot selection outside the perimeter. It is not even the discussion.

3. Lebron's usage

Lebron has better teamates when it comes to sharing usg%. They can be more effective because of this.

Rw and Jh rely much more on themselves. Cavs can change their system of play, recognizing plays, momentum and sharing usg% with Kyrie, because its more effective for a team.

4. Team record

Just a general image. Cavs as a team hasnt got the record they have potential for. Against lebron goes the fact that he himself assemble this roster with kyrie and k.love.
He rests b2b games with tough road games.








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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1327 » by mtron929 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:04 am

A lot of the quibble with MVP comes with the definition of the MVP. However, there is one definition of the MVP that just seems like the most fair. That is, the MVP = best player. How can anyone think that giving the award to the best player in the NBA is somehow unfair? It is the most fair way to reward someone.

So I advocate that we slowly converge upon this definition and give the best player in the NBA (i.e. Lebron) his award.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1328 » by Tritodian » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:34 am

bondom34 wrote:
Tritodian wrote:1. Harden has been a much better outside shooter than Westbrook throughout his career - just not this season. Westbrook has improved his 3PT shooting while Harden's shooting has been declining, so the gap is closed quite a bit if we only look at the 3PT shooting ability. But overall, Harden is still much efficient scorer and not just because of his ability to get to the free throw line.

There is a stat called eFG% which strictly measures players' shooting efficiency (2PT+3PT combined.) It doesn't take into account FTs and if you look at the numbers, Harden is actually pretty good scorer even without the help of FTs. In fact, it's actually Westbrook who begins to look pedestrian once you take away all the free gimmes he accumulates throughout the whole game.

eFG% (League average : 50%)
Harden 53.1%
Westbrook 46.8%

The reason why Harden has far superior TS% despite Westbrook averaging similar free throw attempts and making them at similar rates is because Harden is far better scorer inside the arc (53.4 2PT% vs Westbrook's 45.2 2PT%). In fact, if Harden didn't take so many threes - which hurts any player's overall FG% - the gap in FG% between him and Westbrook would be much bigger than it is now.

In the end, Harden is scoring 29 PPG on 62 TS% and 53 eFG%. That is pretty god damn impressive, and has only been achieved 8 times before in NBA (https://tinyurl.com/k38vq7g), while putting up near triple-double average himself. Westbrook is doing some great things too, but he's nowhere as efficient as Harden is when it comes to pure scoring.

2. Even if we go by overall impact on the offensive side of the ball, Harden still has better ORPM and OWS. Westbrook has better OBPM, but BPM is notoriously skewed by rebounding figures and collinearity, so I think it's fair to say Harden is having a better offensive season than Westbrook in general.

3. Harden is very turnover prone, but so is Westbrook. FWIW, Harden has slightly better AST/TOV ratio than Russ, but I agree that when it comes to play-making ability, Westbrook is not that far behind. I used to regard Westbrook as a mediocre passer, but he's changed my mind lately.

4. One strong argument for Russ is the sheer impact he's having on his team. While I still think Harden should win the MVP award over Westbrook, OKC does really suck when Westbrook sits out unlike Houston, and that's a fair point to make. But this can't be the sole argument since traditionally MVP award is not necessarily given to the most impactful player in the league. By that measure, Bill Russell or Tim Duncan should have never gotten any, and Harden should've been the MVP over Curry in the 14-15 season. It may be not fair, but team success is and always will be a huge factor in these kinds of awards.

5. One final point : People forget that Harden is just two rebounds per game short from averaging triple-double himself. And given that we're comparing two players in the guard position where rebounding is the least of anyone's concern, and given Westbrook's well-documented tendency to inflate his rebounding numbers, this gap of 2 rebounds per game is nowhere enough to justify the discrepancy in team success between the two. On top of that, Harden has been a much efficient scorer as well as slightly better passer.

Yes, OKC does have worse roster, but not as much as people think. If it weren't for Lou Williams acquisition (who brings similar value as Taj Gibson + McDermott combined IMO), Houston would be in serious trouble right now because guys like Gordon, Ariza, and Dekker have been laying bricks for months since the beginning of the new year. If people still think Eric Gordon is much better than Oladipo, just have a look at their numbers now because they're pretty much identical, and that's with Oladipo being a much better defender.

1. I never said Westbrook was having the better offensive season, I said it was close (it is) and his overall impact is greater (it is). He's the better player, having a better season. Again I'm not alone on this, though apparently this thread seems to live on it's island apart from the rest of the NBA world. As well, OWS is biased more toward efficiency and scoring, so discounting BPM and counting OWS is a bit disingenuous.

2. I agree both turn it over a lot, but Harden moreso. Using TO's as a measure against Westbrook and not Harden is my gripe. Or simply ignoring TOs from Harden like they don't exist.

3. I'm not arguing even Russ getting votes, I've accepted he's not winning. But it's a poor criteria when a better player having a better season is punished because his team is worse. I've aways felt that way, always will.

4. This is fine. But Harden's rebounds are equally inflated and he's pulling in nearly identical "contested" rebounds. This gap doesn't matter, what does is the impact each has on the team and the simple fact that Westbrook having a better overall season is enough reason that he should win the award (though won't).

5. As for rosters, this doesn't at all account for why when Harden sits, his team still rolls around a 112 O rating. If I change that to "since January 1", the offense is BETTER with Harden on the bench.

http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612745/onoffcourt-advanced/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=01%2F01%2F2017&DateTo=03%2F24%2F2017

So if you'd explain why the cast isn't vastly better, it should take into account how Harden's team can literally improve it's offensive output when he's sat, while Westbrook's is about the worst in the NBA. People keep saying there's not a big difference, sorry, but the numbers don't at all bear this out and just repeating there's not a difference isn't showing there's not. There is.


Now I'll let everyone alone to post their normal reasons Westbrook doesn't deserve the award and Harden does.

Enjoy the thread, if you want to discredit Westbrook to prop Harden that's great (not you specifically but the trend itt) it shows how weak you think his case must be.

No, it's not because of 2 rebounds Westbrook is better. It's because of literally everything else. I totally get voting for Harden, he's entirely deserving, but trying to make it sound so by either saying it's because of 2 rebounds (which isn't true) or simply discrediting Westbrook is just showing a poor case being made.

Remembering why I stick on the PC board. If people think 2 rebounds is the reason someone is MVP, that's probably an opinion to ignore. 2 rebounds do matter, but anyone basing MVP solely on a box score isn't doing anything right.


1. The reason why I specifically separated out offense is because defensive stats are notoriously unreliable and has too many flaws to be used in a discussion like this, so lumping them altogether to make a case for 'overall impact' is disingenuous. Also, Harden and Westbrook both are not really good defenders to begin with, so it's really not a relevant subject anyway. Offensively, the only measures in which Westbrook seems to edge out Harden are PPG, OBPM and offensive net rating. That's it. Harden edges out Westbrook in APG, FG%, 3PT%, FT%, TS%, eFG%, OWS, ORPM, AST/TOV ratio, etc. Sorry, Harden is simply the better offensive player.

2. I'm very critical of Harden's TOs so your point doesn't apply to me. That being said, Harden's AST/TOV ratio is still a little better than Westbrook's, and Harden does make more pass attempts per game, so to suggest that Harden has bigger turnover issues than Westbrook is misleading. Harden does commit more turnovers, but he also dishes out more assists and makes more pass attempts in general.

3. You keep saying Russ is the better player and not just this season, but how so? If anything, Harden has accomplished more than Westbrook up to this point.

- Harden has higher MVP shares than Westbrook (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/nba_mvp_shares.html)

- Harden has two All-NBA First team selections vs Westbrook's one. Remember, they've been competing for the same spot throughout their whole career.

- Ever since joining Houston, Harden has had five playoff appearances (including this year) and advanced to WCF once. In the same time span, Westbrook has had four playoff appearances (including this year) and advanced to WCF once, and that's with playing with Durant.

The fact that Westbrook has not had a better career than Harden despite having shared majority of his minutes and burden with Kevin Durant as his teammate is kind of damning. Westbrook might be more fun to watch, but he's not the better player and certainly is not having better career up to this point.

4. Harden's rebounds are not equally inflated. Westbrook leads the league in uncontested rebounds category with 8.4 vs Harden's 6.4. If we just focus on contested rebounds, Westbrook barely edges out Harden (2.1 vs 1.7), and Harden has higher Contested REB% (21.2 vs 20.3) http://stats.nba.com/players/rebounding/#!?sort=REB_UNCONTEST&dir=1

5. You keep referencing on/off net rating without mentioning its limitations. There's a reason why people have come up with stats like RPM or BPM, because just looking at raw net rating numbers doesn't tell you that much about a player's true impact. Harden and Kawhi's net rating is low because Houston and San Antonio consciously tries to maintain balance between their starting five and bench members, whereas OKC just goes full out with their starting group. Players like Capela, Ryan Anderson, Ariza and Beverley are not significantly better than Gordon, Lou Williams, Nene and Sam Dekker. Houston's starting five is nothing special and actually lacks offensive talent for a 3rd seed team in WC. It should come as no surprise that Houston's bench is performing well offensively without Harden because it was purposefully designed that way. With the exception of Ryan Anderson, Harden primarily shares his playing time with defensive role players with no particular offensive skill set. Switch Capela, Ariza, and Beverely's place with Gordon, Lou, and Nene and then see what happens. There will be a significant drop off between the starting five and the bench performance on the offensive side of the floor, and Harden's raw net rating will instantly increase.

If a good player is on a weaker team, his impact is inevitably elevated above his peers. A same player performing at the same level can have zero impact on a team like San Antonio, while could be +20 in Brooklyn. There's nothing about his individual performance that has changed, just his surroundings. Even the Bulls manged to win 55 games without Micheal Jordan, as opposed to 57 games in the previous season with Jordan playing. Does that mean Jordan's overall value was equal to just two more additional wins? There will always be some good players who will have the opportunity to leave more mark in the game, so to speak, than others just because he's playing for one of the worst teams in the league. Should we reward those guys MVP every year even though their team is lottery bound? If that's your take, then fine, but it's just wishful thinking on your part and will never happen realistically.

Anyways, I've already conceded that Westbrook is having bigger impact on his team this season, not because of raw net rating figures, but on the basis of Russ having slightly higher RPM. But as with all other stats, RPM tracks offense much more accurately than defense, and by that measure Harden's offensive impact (ORPM) has been greater than Westbrook's this season. But as I've said before, MVP doesn't necessarily mean the most impactful player in the league. And going by traditional criteria by which we crown MVPs of this league, Harden should win the award. http://static.bkref.com/friv/mvp.html
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1329 » by RightToCensor » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:35 am

mtron929 wrote:A lot of the quibble with MVP comes with the definition of the MVP. However, there is one definition of the MVP that just seems like the most fair. That is, the MVP = best player. How can anyone think that giving the award to the best player in the NBA is somehow unfair? It is the most fair way to reward someone.

I've pitched that the league should introduce an award to commemorate the best player in the league. Give Lebron a certificate of appreciation and a blue ribbon for being acknowledged as the best player in the world. Let the Regular Season MVP remain as such in terms of voting and credentials.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1330 » by mtron929 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:16 pm

RightToCensor wrote:
mtron929 wrote:A lot of the quibble with MVP comes with the definition of the MVP. However, there is one definition of the MVP that just seems like the most fair. That is, the MVP = best player. How can anyone think that giving the award to the best player in the NBA is somehow unfair? It is the most fair way to reward someone.

I've pitched that the league should introduce an award to commemorate the best player in the league. Give Lebron a certificate of appreciation and a blue ribbon for being acknowledged as the best player in the world. Let the Regular Season MVP remain as such in terms of voting and credentials.


The MVP should be a snapshot of the NBA during that time. Such that if someone from year 2100 is going through list of 100 MVPs from 2000 to 2100, he will get a great idea on who the best of best all times were. That is why guys like Jordan and Lebron should have 6+ MVP awards, such that people in the future have an accurate grasp of who really were the best players. Right now, there is too much of "spread the wealth" according to how we define the MVP and thus, we get a misrepresentation about who really was special in the NBA history.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1331 » by Bolivar » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:47 pm

mtron929 wrote:A lot of the quibble with MVP comes with the definition of the MVP. However, there is one definition of the MVP that just seems like the most fair. That is, the MVP = best player. How can anyone think that giving the award to the best player in the NBA is somehow unfair? It is the most fair way to reward someone.

So I advocate that we slowly converge upon this definition and give the best player in the NBA (i.e. Lebron) his award.


So theoretically, in your opinion, you could just skip the entire regular season, start your season in the playoffs, get the (regular season)MVP award, win a championship because that's what you do as the best player of the game.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1332 » by antonac » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:42 pm

Bolivar wrote:
mtron929 wrote:A lot of the quibble with MVP comes with the definition of the MVP. However, there is one definition of the MVP that just seems like the most fair. That is, the MVP = best player. How can anyone think that giving the award to the best player in the NBA is somehow unfair? It is the most fair way to reward someone.

So I advocate that we slowly converge upon this definition and give the best player in the NBA (i.e. Lebron) his award.


So theoretically, in your opinion, you could just skip the entire regular season, start your season in the playoffs, get the (regular season)MVP award, win a championship because that's what you do as the best player of the game.


TBH, all this "regular season is meaningless" stuff that has been focused so heavily on makes me think that we should just do away with the play offs and have the top seed in each league play each other in a finals and that's it.

see how meaningless it is and how much people want to rest if you've got a 2nd seed breathing down your neck and a few slip ups might end your season.

Just to throw it out there, I was actually slipping towards thinking it was between leonard and Durant (before he was injured), my voting would have Harden 3rd and Westbrook 4th. I'll get me coat.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1333 » by mtron929 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:09 pm

Bolivar wrote:
mtron929 wrote:A lot of the quibble with MVP comes with the definition of the MVP. However, there is one definition of the MVP that just seems like the most fair. That is, the MVP = best player. How can anyone think that giving the award to the best player in the NBA is somehow unfair? It is the most fair way to reward someone.

So I advocate that we slowly converge upon this definition and give the best player in the NBA (i.e. Lebron) his award.


So theoretically, in your opinion, you could just skip the entire regular season, start your season in the playoffs, get the (regular season)MVP award, win a championship because that's what you do as the best player of the game.


I think there is an extreme case where if you miss too many games, then you are eliminated from consideration even if you are the best player. However, in a year like this, then you provide a benefit of a doubt to the best player and give Lebron the award. The worst case scenario is that you give some of the best players to ever play (e.g. Lebron, Jordan, Shaq) too much credit and give them an extra MVP that they might not deserve. I would rather err on the side of giving the best more awards as opposed to giving some of the mere mortal players more credit.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1334 » by BallerTalk » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:24 pm

mtron929 wrote:A lot of the quibble with MVP comes with the definition of the MVP. However, there is one definition of the MVP that just seems like the most fair. That is, the MVP = best player. How can anyone think that giving the award to the best player in the NBA is somehow unfair? It is the most fair way to reward someone.

So I advocate that we slowly converge upon this definition and give the best player in the NBA (i.e. Lebron) his award.


There's a reason why they give it out each year.
It's for the player having the best season. This season that player is NOT Lebron.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1335 » by mtron929 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:25 pm

BallerTalk wrote:
mtron929 wrote:A lot of the quibble with MVP comes with the definition of the MVP. However, there is one definition of the MVP that just seems like the most fair. That is, the MVP = best player. How can anyone think that giving the award to the best player in the NBA is somehow unfair? It is the most fair way to reward someone.

So I advocate that we slowly converge upon this definition and give the best player in the NBA (i.e. Lebron) his award.


There's a reason why they give it out each year.
It's for the player having the best season. This season that player is NOT Lebron.


No, that is your definition. I just disagree with this definition. I think it should be given out to the best player.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1336 » by mtron929 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:27 pm

BallerTalk wrote:
mtron929 wrote:A lot of the quibble with MVP comes with the definition of the MVP. However, there is one definition of the MVP that just seems like the most fair. That is, the MVP = best player. How can anyone think that giving the award to the best player in the NBA is somehow unfair? It is the most fair way to reward someone.

So I advocate that we slowly converge upon this definition and give the best player in the NBA (i.e. Lebron) his award.


There's a reason why they give it out each year.
It's for the player having the best season. This season that player is NOT Lebron.


Also, what is the worst case scenario under adopting my definition of the MVP? Guys like Lebron, MJ, Shaq, Kareem get too many MVPs whereas Derrick Rose, Steve Nash, Karl Malone, etc. get less? I don't think this is unfair at all.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1337 » by NormanDale » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:28 pm

Both in RealGM and among professional reporters, there seems to be a lot of cherry-picking stats to argue against Westbrook, who seems to be 4th on many people's lists despite having a season we haven't seen for more than 50 years and being the obvious pick.

Don't act like it's just ignoramuses seduced by counting-stats who support Russ' candidacy. Russ leads the league by substantial margins in VORP (10.8 to Harden's 8.0), BPM (14.9 to Harden's 10.4) and PER (30.4 to Harden's 27.8, and Kawhi's 28.0). He also leads in assist rate, 56.6 to Harden's 50.9, a testament to the fact that Harden's "raw" assist lead is in large part a product of the quality of his teammates.

The big case for Harden seems to be that his team has won 8 more games than Westbrook's team, even though it's acknowledged that a big part of the gap comes from the massive difference in the two teams when their stars are off the court--Westbrook's team falls off a cliff, Harden's does not.

Also: I'm as big of a fan of advanced stats as anyone, but let's not completely dismiss the 30-10-10. As recently as a year ago, Big-O's numbers were seen as a relic of a strange, mythical era when the game looked nothing like it does today, as unlikely to be repeated as Wilt's 50 ppg. When Westbrook did it for the first couple months, everyone said, "this is amazing, but there's no way he'll keep it up." He has, and now we're all pretending it's not that big a deal. Except it is. It's insane.

And the eye test backs up how incredible what Westbrook is doing is. While I love Harden's game, and think he would be worthy of the MVP in almost any other year, I have never in my life seen anything like Westbrook this season, a freight-train going 100 mph all the damn time, putting the team on his shoulders and fighting all comers like the hero in a kung-fu movie. It's electrifying.

It's one of those things where you look at the stats and you say, "How is that even possible in 2017??" Then you watch him play, and you go, "Ohhh, that's how it's possible. You have to be a **** maniac every day for 6 straight months."

When you play at a consistent intensity and quality level that rivals the best seasons we've ever seen (certainly among the best I've ever seen, and I've been watching the NBA consistently since 1991), and when the eye-test, the advanced-stats, and the traditional stats all back that up...then, I'm sorry, but you're the MVP.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1338 » by Torchmode » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:31 pm

mtron929 wrote:
BallerTalk wrote:
mtron929 wrote:A lot of the quibble with MVP comes with the definition of the MVP. However, there is one definition of the MVP that just seems like the most fair. That is, the MVP = best player. How can anyone think that giving the award to the best player in the NBA is somehow unfair? It is the most fair way to reward someone.

So I advocate that we slowly converge upon this definition and give the best player in the NBA (i.e. Lebron) his award.


There's a reason why they give it out each year.
It's for the player having the best season. This season that player is NOT Lebron.


No, that is your definition. I just disagree with this definition. I think it should be given out to the best player.


This isnt a lifetime achievement award. Its an MVP award. Aka "player of the year" award.

LeBron has not been the best player this season based on his stats and record mixed in the fact that hes sitting games.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1339 » by mtron929 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:33 pm

Torchmode wrote:
mtron929 wrote:
BallerTalk wrote:
There's a reason why they give it out each year.
It's for the player having the best season. This season that player is NOT Lebron.


No, that is your definition. I just disagree with this definition. I think it should be given out to the best player.


This isnt a lifetime achievement award. Its an MVP award. Aka "player of the year" award.

LeBron has not been the best player this season based on his stats and record mixed in the fact that hes sitting games.


Of course, it's not the lifetime achievement award. Or else, guys like Dirk or Wade might still be eligible. Lebron is still considered to be the best player by majority of the fans. Just not the MVP. I find this distinction awkward as I think the best player is the MVP and the MVP should go to the best player.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1340 » by Torchmode » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:37 pm

mtron929 wrote:
Torchmode wrote:
mtron929 wrote:
No, that is your definition. I just disagree with this definition. I think it should be given out to the best player.


This isnt a lifetime achievement award. Its an MVP award. Aka "player of the year" award.

LeBron has not been the best player this season based on his stats and record mixed in the fact that hes sitting games.


Of course, it's not the lifetime achievement award. Or else, guys like Dirk or Wade might still be eligible. Lebron is still considered to be the best player by majority of the fans. Just not the MVP. I find this distinction awkward as I think the best player is the MVP and the MVP should go to the best player.



He doesent need an award for that. If fans consider him the best player then thats all the reconition he should get for that. The MVP award should be something a playeds works all season to achieve. Giving the award out to a player because "the fans think hes the best" would be idiotic. The award must be earned, not handed out on past achievements or fan recognition. Why even have the award then? Top players would just forfeit the season and try less hard and we would have much lower quality basketball from the superstars because they would know "lebron is gonna win it every year until he retires why bother"

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