Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan

Moderators: magnumt, ken6199, BombsquadSammy, Yuri Vaultin, Tarik Black, Mr. E, bwgood77, Rhettmatic, Duke4life831, KF10, GimmeDat, Knickstape1214, DayofMourning, Capn'O, Dirk, CoreyGallagher

The4thHorseman
Analyst
Posts: 3,605
And1: 880
Joined: Jun 18, 2011

Re: Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan 

Post#161 » by The4thHorseman » Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:25 am

Jedi32 wrote:
The4thHorseman wrote:
Jedi32 wrote:People keep saying lebron beat a super team without acknowledging lebron is on a super team himself.

Who on the Cavs roster (besides James) made an All-NBA team or the All-Star team in 2016?

May I ask why that would matter? I mean according to realgm things like all star games are irrelevant because they're voted on by casual fans...

Then what constitutes a superteam in your eyes?
User avatar
AgentGreen
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,715
And1: 1,905
Joined: Feb 12, 2013
Location: Greentown
     

Re: Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan 

Post#162 » by AgentGreen » Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:40 am

He still didnt shoot a FT with his eyes closed.
Image
User avatar
Pharaoh
RealGM
Posts: 11,467
And1: 2,641
Joined: Aug 10, 2001

Re: Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan 

Post#163 » by Pharaoh » Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:26 am

You can't catch what can't be caught.

It's not the Finals win-loss record

It's not the rings

It's not the 2 three-peats

It's not the points

It's not changing the game for off the floor endorsements

It's not even the $30 mil salaries

It's everything rolled into one and the fact Jordan came along when Bird & Magic were viewed as the standard that sets MJ apart

Jordan's impact on the game allowed a guy like Lebron to come along in the first place and have the opportunities he's had

Sent from my SM-J110F using RealGM mobile app
User avatar
Axl Rose
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,487
And1: 2,859
Joined: Jul 03, 2013
Location: Right Next Door to Hell
Contact:

Re: Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan 

Post#164 » by Axl Rose » Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:27 am

he will never catch Jordan
I'm climbin' through the wreckage of all my twisted dreams
jagz
Junior
Posts: 423
And1: 137
Joined: Aug 22, 2010

Re: Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan 

Post#165 » by jagz » Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:42 am

The4thHorseman wrote:Since you confirm that both Wade and James are both close friends, then it's not hard to imagine an agreement of LeBron taking a back seat so Wade can have one last hurrah and try to win another FMVP.
Does it not strike you odd that shortly after that Finals loss, Wade told the media "it's LeBron's team now" in which Miami proceeded to win B2B Championships with Wade taking the backseat and the luxury of taking games off during the reg. season??


No, it doesn't because I can document for you exactly what happened. The lockout-shortened 2012 season began in December with James and Wade once again in full co-alpha mode. Through two games, LeBron was averaging 26 and Wade 24. In the third game, Wade got hurt and then had to sit out nine games, during which time the Heat went 8 -1, and James/ Bosh were a devastating combo. After seeing this and in light of LBJ's ultimate failure at sharing the leadership mantle in 2011, Wade approached James and told him he would take the back seat (however, he was sort of lying as he proceeded to outplay James for the next two months-- during January and February, in terms of per 36, Wade averaged 28 ppg to James' 24 ppg; but, in March, Wade suffered sustained his first serious injury of the Heatles-era, which signified the beginning of the end of his prime).

Also, your theory about LBJ agreeing to defer in the 2011 Finals is a cute attempt to obscure the fact that LeBron scored 8 points in Game 4, which they lost by 3, with the Heat poised to take a 3 - 1 lead, which with HCA under the 2-3-2 format was insurmountable. It also ignores that Wade outplayed James in the second most important series of that playoffs against the Celtics (33 ppg vs. 27 ppg), outscored him in the playoffs outright (24 ppg vs. 23 ppg), was statistically on par with him during the season (27/7/7 vs. 26/6/5), had better numbers per 36 and was the leading scorer in more games that both played. Wade was in every way James' equal, if not better.

MJ shouldered the offense while Pippen shouldered the defense by guarding the best opposing offensive player. That's why MJ could stay fresher on offense. Younger non-injured better 2 way player Pippen > 2012-14 Wade. Young Grant banging for rebounds and posting up > 2012-14 Bosh


Defense does not equal offense. Neither does rebounding, and neither does passing or any other skill (although the ability to be a scorer/playmaker is admittedly fundamental to dominance-- hence why MJ's first Finals when he dropped 31/11 was one of his more impressive performances). Overall, there is no more valuable ability in basketball then for your team to put the ball in your hands and say win us the game/ series/ title. On that front, without hesitation, I'm taking both MJ and Wade over James.

Also, while MJ didn't hit every single game-determining shot on the biggest stage (for example, Phil drew up a play for a Paxson 3 that won the 1993 title against the Suns, and MJ drew and kicked to Kerr for the clincher in 1997 vs. the Jazz), he was never bailed out as LeBron definitely was by Ray Allen after he missed a game-tying three in Game 6 in 2013 and also arguably was by Kyrie last year.

As far as comparing prime Pippen to 2012 - 2014 Wade, I suppose that's arguable. But, here's what I'll say: as recently as the 2016 playoffs last year, a healthy 34 year-old Wade was reprising his "hop-on-my-back" role in beating the Hornets and taking the Raptors to Game 7. Scottie couldn't do that. He wasn't that kind of player. (Scottie's stats in his best season without MJ are almost identical to his best season with MJ-- the proper comparison for him is the Grant Hill tier).

The reason this matters is that even as it got to the point where Wade was constantly getting his knee-drained in the postseason, he was still able to provide "flashes" of his true self at critical times, such as Games 2 - 5 in the 2012 Finals when he averaged 25 ppg and Game 4 of the 2013 Spurs series, which he closed down after James subbed himself out, scoring 32 and putting the Heat up by 15 by the time LeBron reentered.

MJ just never had that caliber of support. An easy way to explain the difference is that Mike played with a true Robin. LeBron played with a Batman who was crammed into a Robin costume, a fact reinforced by the fact that as soon as LBJ left, Wade immediately changed back into his Batman suit. (The jury is out on whether Kyrie is a Batman; we haven't seen him in that role in his prime).
User avatar
Hello Brooklyn
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,082
And1: 2,323
Joined: Dec 24, 2012
   

Re: Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan 

Post#166 » by Hello Brooklyn » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:17 am

Lebron can definitely catch Jordan if he wins 6 championships. I mean I don't see how he doesn't if that happens.
sophie23
Freshman
Posts: 83
And1: 37
Joined: Nov 28, 2015

Re: Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan 

Post#167 » by sophie23 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:04 am

MJ all day long.

Even if Lebron beats Gsw this year and next.

When you think about Jordan you think Goat, when you think about Lebron ... too many what if's, too many loosing narrative. Lebron is and will always be up there but in my opinion too many missed goat-to-be occasions.

Sent from my SM-G920F using RealGM mobile app
alexb618
Pro Prospect
Posts: 886
And1: 520
Joined: Mar 07, 2005
Location: +618
 

Re: Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan 

Post#168 » by alexb618 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:29 am

we would be asking the same question in reverse if lebron played in the exponential growth era of the nba and if jordan played today

i think it is fair that you can compare on court stuff but because so many people grew up with this jordan phenomenon happening, most people will never accept anyone could be as good as or better than MJ
Travis Outlaw: Oh man. That feels great. To have a bobblehead of me is just terrific.
PhillySixers22
Junior
Posts: 325
And1: 150
Joined: Mar 10, 2014

Re: Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan 

Post#169 » by PhillySixers22 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:52 pm

Barring a miraculous next few seasons I don't see it. LeBron is definitely going to be top 3 and deserving of discussion but Jordan's legacy is about as close to untouchable as it gets. The thing that doesn't show up on the stat sheet and far to often isn't brought up IMO is his unmatched will to win and passion. It's the reason LBJ is in the discussion now, because of his performances these last two finals against the Warriors. Sure his statistical production warrants praise as well, but anyone watching the finals and the way he willed his team, the intangible impact he had is undeniable. That's what MJ brought year in and year out, and what Bron was lacking until recently.
michaelm
Starter
Posts: 2,066
And1: 711
Joined: Apr 06, 2010

Re: Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan 

Post#170 » by michaelm » Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:16 pm

alexb618 wrote:we would be asking the same question in reverse if lebron played in the exponential growth era of the nba and if jordan played today

i think it is fair that you can compare on court stuff but because so many people grew up with this jordan phenomenon happening, most people will never accept anyone could be as good as or better than MJ

Except Jordan was a very large contributor to that exponential growth, so it is hard to feel sorry for LeBron given the degree to which he has profited.
Pr0nzingis
Sophomore
Posts: 163
And1: 141
Joined: Jul 10, 2015
   

Re: Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan 

Post#171 » by Pr0nzingis » Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:21 pm

Jordan would average 50ppg today.

H goes to Miami ring chase joining an unprecedented stack up team, than comes back to play for the team with 3 nº1 picks in 4 years, the best PG in the game, and the biggest payroll in NBA history and people wonder if him vs Jordan is debatable? lol is this a joke?

HE FAKED an misterious elbow injury and pissed on his team so that he could bail out to Miami to win multiple titles.

He is the biggest ring chaser in NBA history, he is the most babied player by the league in NBA history (historic bad reffing, rules change to help him, unprecedented raise in salary cap to help his team and its record breaking payroll), he is without question the biggest statpadder and cherry picker in the NBA history (he can have a triple double without anyone noticing him, he knows no shame, statpadding layups in garbage time after another MIA in the NBA FINALS vs gsw, he already statpadded against Matt Bonner garbage time with Spurs starters watching on the bench), he had the biggest choking meltdowns in NBA history, he is a flopping and whining bitch that still can't shoot at age 32, and even with the refs helping, and even with Kyrie single handedly outplaying the other team best two player he still needed a bitch move to get someone else suspended to win another title.

Kyrie was the one bringing the cavs from big deficits, he was the one blowing games out... lebron statpadded layups after MIA and had a block...

At one point Lebron's best competition was Roy Hibbert... lol serioulsy lol, not only he played for stacked teams he had no competition. And even on the most stacked team ever, the not 1, not 2, not 3 team, he needed the most ridiculous refs calls in recent memory to get past the celtics, a bunch of 36 old guys.

This is his legacy... everything else is ESPN\NBA propaganda, he looks good on the surface, but looking closer he is really nothing but a stronger Scottie Pippen playing on a very weak era.

LEbron = Given not earned
User avatar
MartinToVaught
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,682
And1: 9,648
Joined: Oct 19, 2014
     

Re: Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan 

Post#172 » by MartinToVaught » Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:40 pm

LeBron is the GOAT. Jordan couldn't have dragged the 2007 Cavs to the Finals. Jordan couldn't lead the entire Finals in every statistical category by himself like LeBron did last year. Jordan never even played anyone nearly as good as the Warriors in the playoffs, let alone beat them. He was on the "Warriors" of his era. And, as Wilt pointed out during MJ's playing days, the league significantly changed its rules to make it easier for Jordan to win - a favor they never did for LeBron. LeBron has spent his whole career doing more with less. That will always be more impressive to me than racking up accomplishments on the most stacked team of your era.

The real question is how Jordan compares to Duncan and Kareem. I don't think I'd take MJ over those guys either.
Image
User avatar
dautjazz
Head Coach
Posts: 7,355
And1: 3,473
Joined: Aug 01, 2001
Location: Miami, FL
 

Re: RE: Re: Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan 

Post#173 » by dautjazz » Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:41 pm

Pr0nzingis wrote:Jordan would average 50ppg today.

H goes to Miami ring chase joining an unprecedented stack up team, than comes back to play for the team with 3 nº1 picks in 4 years, the best PG in the game, and the biggest payroll in NBA history and people wonder if him vs Jordan is debatable? lol is this a joke?

HE FAKED an misterious elbow injury and pissed on his team so that he could bail out to Miami to win multiple titles.

He is the biggest ring chaser in NBA history, he is the most babied player by the league in NBA history (historic bad reffing, rules change to help him, unprecedented raise in salary cap to help his team and its record breaking payroll), he is without question the biggest statpadder and cherry picker in the NBA history (he can have a triple double without anyone noticing him, he knows no shame, statpadding layups in garbage time after another MIA in the NBA FINALS vs gsw, he already statpadded against Matt Bonner garbage time with Spurs starters watching on the bench), he had the biggest choking meltdowns in NBA history, he is a flopping and whining bitch that still can't shoot at age 32, and even with the refs helping, and even with Kyrie single handedly outplaying the other team best two player he still needed a bitch move to get someone else suspended to win another title.

Kyrie was the one bringing the cavs from big deficits, he was the one blowing games out... lebron statpadded layups after MIA and had a block...

At one point Lebron's best competition was Roy Hibbert... lol serioulsy lol, not only he played for stacked teams he had no competition. And even on the most stacked team ever, the not 1, not 2, not 3 team, he needed the most ridiculous refs calls in recent memory to get past the celtics, a bunch of 36 old guys.

This is his legacy... everything else is ESPN\NBA propaganda, he looks good on the surface, but looking closer he is really nothing but a stronger Scottie Pippen playing on a very weak era.

LEbron = Given not earned

Lebron played with just one 1st overall pick, Wiggins and Bennett never played with him. Also Love struggled in the 2016 playoffs. Lets be honest, he had to leave Miami it was a bad situation, constant injuries to Bosh and Wade, and looks like he and Riley weren't exactly seeing eye to eye. LeBron could of chosen about 10 other teams where he could of had more support, so its not like Lebron chose the best team like Durant. LeBron simply makes half the teams in the NBA the best, why should he chose an awful team, which btw before LeBron the Cavs were.

Sent from my phone which is better than yours!
NickAnderson wrote:
How old are you, just curious.

by gomeziee on 21 Jul 2013 00:53

im 20, and i did grow up watching MJ play in the 90's.
garrick
Veteran
Posts: 2,803
And1: 233
Joined: Dec 02, 2006

Re: Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan 

Post#174 » by garrick » Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:48 pm

mobifree wrote:In all of Jordan's championship wins, he ALWAYS had Pippen and a solid supporting cast (Grant, Cartwright, Paxon, Armstrong, Hodges) ... Rodman, Kukoc, Longley.

2015 Cavaliers were Lebron and NOONE else!
2015-16 Cavaliers had a supporting cast, but Lebron carried that team. Like Kerr hitting game winning shot with Jordan, Irving hit the game winning shot with Lebron.

well remember the Heat big 3 first season they lost so you can't make the excuse when he lost that they didn't always have enough talent.

The first time he went to the finals he gets a pass because he had a horrible Cavs team but while on the Heat they had three HOF players and didn't always manage to win.
garrick
Veteran
Posts: 2,803
And1: 233
Joined: Dec 02, 2006

Re: Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan 

Post#175 » by garrick » Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:53 pm

garrick wrote:
mobifree wrote:In all of Jordan's championship wins, he ALWAYS had Pippen and a solid supporting cast (Grant, Cartwright, Paxon, Armstrong, Hodges) ... Rodman, Kukoc, Longley.

2015 Cavaliers were Lebron and NOONE else!
2015-16 Cavaliers had a supporting cast, but Lebron carried that team. Like Kerr hitting game winning shot with Jordan, Irving hit the game winning shot with Lebron.

well remember the Heat big 3 first season they lost so you can't make the excuse when he lost that they didn't always have enough talent.

The first time he went to the finals he gets a pass because he had a horrible Cavs team but while on the Heat they had three HOF players and didn't always manage to win.

For those of you saying LBJ was so great for taking the Cavs to the finals in 2007 the East was ridiculously weak then while MJ battled the Pistons and Celtics in their peak years early on in his career, even now the Cavs have a free pass to the finals barring injury so LBJ has had a much easier time getting to the finals.
garrick
Veteran
Posts: 2,803
And1: 233
Joined: Dec 02, 2006

Re: Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan 

Post#176 » by garrick » Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:53 pm

garrick wrote:
garrick wrote:
mobifree wrote:In all of Jordan's championship wins, he ALWAYS had Pippen and a solid supporting cast (Grant, Cartwright, Paxon, Armstrong, Hodges) ... Rodman, Kukoc, Longley.

2015 Cavaliers were Lebron and NOONE else!
2015-16 Cavaliers had a supporting cast, but Lebron carried that team. Like Kerr hitting game winning shot with Jordan, Irving hit the game winning shot with Lebron.

well remember the Heat big 3 first season they lost so you can't make the excuse when he lost that they didn't always have enough talent.

The first time he went to the finals he gets a pass because he had a horrible Cavs team but while on the Heat they had three HOF players and didn't always manage to win.

For those of you saying LBJ was so great for taking the Cavs to the finals in 2007 the East was ridiculously weak then while MJ battled the Pistons and Celtics in their peak years early on in his career, even now the Cavs have a free pass to the finals barring injury so LBJ has had a much easier time getting to the finals.
User avatar
Axl Rose
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,487
And1: 2,859
Joined: Jul 03, 2013
Location: Right Next Door to Hell
Contact:

Re: Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan 

Post#177 » by Axl Rose » Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:12 pm

sophie23 wrote:MJ all day long.

Even if Lebron beats Gsw this year and next.

When you think about Jordan you think Goat, when you think about Lebron ... too many what if's, too many loosing narrative. Lebron is and will always be up there but in my opinion too many missed goat-to-be occasions.

Sent from my SM-G920F using RealGM mobile app


exactly LeBron is too polarizing to be GOAT

the majority respects Jordan as GOAT with no questions. im not sure if anybody will ever surpass him as his legend only gets stronger as time goes on...soon he'll be known to have walked on water.
I'm climbin' through the wreckage of all my twisted dreams
garrick
Veteran
Posts: 2,803
And1: 233
Joined: Dec 02, 2006

Re: Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan 

Post#178 » by garrick » Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:47 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:LeBron is the GOAT. Jordan couldn't have dragged the 2007 Cavs to the Finals. Jordan couldn't lead the entire Finals in every statistical category by himself like LeBron did last year. Jordan never even played anyone nearly as good as the Warriors in the playoffs, let alone beat them. He was on the "Warriors" of his era. And, as Wilt pointed out during MJ's playing days, the league significantly changed its rules to make it easier for Jordan to win - a favor they never did for LeBron. LeBron has spent his whole career doing more with less. That will always be more impressive to me than racking up accomplishments on the most stacked team of your era.

The real question is how Jordan compares to Duncan and Kareem. I don't think I'd take MJ over those guys either.

Oh please like LBJ doesn't also get favorable calls and gets the benefit of the doubt on defense so he rarely ever is in foul trouble?

LBJ made the finals in an extremely weak eastern conference while Jordan did not make the finals in his early years because he had to battle the bad boy Pistons and the Celitics who knocked him out of the playoffs until age started to catch up with them, had the East been similarly weak Jordan would have had a cakewalk to the finals but he didn't.

The first three peat was also not exactly an easy road as the Knicks were a pretty physical team that played tough defense that simply could not be played today, look at the old youtube clips of the Knicks committing hard fouls that would be graded as flagrant fouls today.

Jordan also won a NCAA title so that should also count for something.
User avatar
Johnny Firpo
General Manager
Posts: 9,907
And1: 4,266
Joined: Apr 17, 2009
 

Re: Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan 

Post#179 » by Johnny Firpo » Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:33 pm

Hello Brooklyn wrote:Lebron can definitely catch Jordan if he wins 6 championships. I mean I don't see how he doesn't if that happens.


I think he needs seven, mostly because MJ's peak - certainly defensively - was a little bit higher. 7 would mean it's a legit, two-way discussion. I guess 6 would make it a debate as well, but anything less, I don't see it.
User avatar
Johnny Firpo
General Manager
Posts: 9,907
And1: 4,266
Joined: Apr 17, 2009
 

Re: Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan 

Post#180 » by Johnny Firpo » Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:38 pm

Axl Rose wrote:im not sure if anybody will ever surpass him


It's pretty much a certainty. Another perfect player will come along the way, who gets on a winning franchise, and ends up winning 7-8 titles as the man, while shattering every records in the book. It's inevitable, the only question is, if it happens in the next 20, 30, 50 or 70 years. The only thing that can stop this, if - for whatever reason - there is no NBA in the future.

Return to The General Board