Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1...

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Re: Zach Lowe: 

Post#161 » by Pelly24 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:30 am

KayDee35 wrote:
Bergmaniac wrote:
KayDee35 wrote:KD relies on efficiency and defensive impact for his value while WB relies on high usage and energy for his impact. Those two types of players don't usually work well together when they are the top dogs. See Kobe-Shaq in their Finals against the Pistons for reference.


So the three-peat they achieved earlier doesn't count? 8-)

Come on, now. :banghead: I referred to one particular playoff series, not their body of work together, because if you watched it you could see the tug-of-war between Kobe and Shaq and how that worked out. There is a way that the Kobe-Shaq combo worked against good teams and part of it involved getting the high efficiency guy the ball in the right spots and getting the high usage guy to be more judicious in his shot selection and commit to moving the ball more.

Shaq was Finals MVP for their three-peat. The Pistons played him one-on-one for the most part in that Finals which was unheard of at the time.

I'll let Chauncey Billups lay it out for you:

But, if we’re going to play Shaq straight-up, [the Lakers'] eyes are going to get big, which means they’re going to keep throwing it down there. We’re telling Ben the whole time, "Take fouls when you need to, but don’t get yourself into foul trouble. You need to give up a layup, cool, we’re going to get what we want on the other side." But what’s going to happen is Mr. Bryant is going to get a little discouraged with getting no touches and now the second half comes around…now he’s pressing. He’s going to start coming down and just breaking the offense. When you do that, you’re done—you’re playing right into our hands. Even if you start making those shots, you’re finished.


Durant's improvement in TS% is directly related to running fewer iso's. He might do it more than he should but he's way down from his tenure with OKC.


Bergmaniac wrote:He runs fewer ISOs because his team is stacked and has a bunch of great passers. of course he'd take more good shots on the most stacked team ever. Not sure how that proves that he and Westbrook were a bad duo.


WB and KD weren't used well together, imho. If you believe they were used to their full potential and there was no room for improvement as a combo, then you should also be willing to accept that they were at their absolute ceiling and just needed more help.

I thought there was significant room for improvement especially late in games.


What I've always disliked about this is how short-sighted it all is. Westbrook and Durant probably beat the 2008-2010 Lakers, and they probably beat the 2009 Magic, or the 2008 Celtics, or maybe even the 2007 Spurs. They were a championship caliber team that went up against an inexhaustible bench with a flawless system. It took a miracle game from Klay Thompson. I don't think KD and Russ were used to their best potential, i think Westbrook has taken a step forward this year with late game management, he's won a lot of close games. They prob. beat GSW this year if they stayed together, now that super-curry is erratic.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#162 » by Pelly24 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:35 am

Chinook wrote:I really don't want to make it seem like I'm ragging on OKC fans for supporting their team, but you can totally argue that the Thunder being a seventh seed is an insignificant accomplishment. Sure, they'd be a lottery team without Russ, but in the grand scheme of things, is he making them any closer to winning a title now? Then how valuable are his contributions?

I think OKC winning in the first round would be a huge boost to Russ' candidacy, mainly because it would involve beating a contender or at least one of Utah/LAC. THAT would show exactly how good Westbrook makes the Thunder. If they get swept in the first round, then I don't know if they really look different than a 30-win team.

REALLY not trying to belittle the Thunder here. I am more trying to say that those who look at the top teams almost exclusively do so for a reason. The relative value of an improvement is boosted well beyond it's absolute value. Going from a 50-win team to a 65-win team is hella harder than going from a 25- to 30-win team to a 45- or 50-win team. That's just due to a normal distribution.


How? Your impact is how many wins you add to your team. In the example you gave, both players have the same impact, and one isn't really easier than the other. If Westbrook's team would win 20 games without him but they end up winning 48, that's pretty huge. That's the difference between being one of the 6 worst teams in the game to being comfortably in the playoffs. That's an enormous impact. It's not glamorous, but I dont get your argument. They're 25 or so games closer to winning a title than they would have been.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#163 » by Pelly24 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:40 am

inDe_eD wrote:
Winsome Gerbil wrote:
inDe_eD wrote:Re: productivity - Kawhi IS matching the productivity of the other two guys. He's second in PER behind only Westbrook. He's anchoring the best defense, and the number 5 offense. His 26/6/3/2/1 Statline is impressive because he's pairing it with elite efficiency, on high volume, on one of the slowest teams in the league, on top of being the best perimeter defender in the game. Yea that's a mouthful, and it doesn't sound as good as "triple double" or "points and assists leader" but it doesn't take away from the fact that it's every bit as impressive if you care about team success.



The Spurs are a very solid team without Kawhi. If HArden or Westbrook were on that squad (even accounting for the fact that it wasn't built for either of them), they'd probably get 60 wins too. Westbrook is taking a team that by almost every statistic ranks as one of the very worst teams offensively when he's off the court to being comfortably in the playoffs. Harden's taking a solid team to an elite win-loss record.

Westbrook is leading the leagues in Estimated Wins Added, and he might get to a lebron esque 25-28 EWA by year's end.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#164 » by Chinook » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:11 pm

Pelly24 wrote:
Chinook wrote:I really don't want to make it seem like I'm ragging on OKC fans for supporting their team, but you can totally argue that the Thunder being a seventh seed is an insignificant accomplishment. Sure, they'd be a lottery team without Russ, but in the grand scheme of things, is he making them any closer to winning a title now? Then how valuable are his contributions?

I think OKC winning in the first round would be a huge boost to Russ' candidacy, mainly because it would involve beating a contender or at least one of Utah/LAC. THAT would show exactly how good Westbrook makes the Thunder. If they get swept in the first round, then I don't know if they really look different than a 30-win team.

REALLY not trying to belittle the Thunder here. I am more trying to say that those who look at the top teams almost exclusively do so for a reason. The relative value of an improvement is boosted well beyond it's absolute value. Going from a 50-win team to a 65-win team is hella harder than going from a 25- to 30-win team to a 45- or 50-win team. That's just due to a normal distribution.


How? Your impact is how many wins you add to your team. In the example you gave, both players have the same impact, and one isn't really easier than the other. If Westbrook's team would win 20 games without him but they end up winning 48, that's pretty huge. That's the difference between being one of the 6 worst teams in the game to being comfortably in the playoffs. That's an enormous impact. It's not glamorous, but I dont get your argument. They're 25 or so games closer to winning a title than they would have been.


Not all wins are created equal. It's significantly harder to go 82-0 than 81-1, which is significantly harder than going 80-2 and so on. A guy who adds 30 wins to a horrible team will not add that many to a great team. That just wouldn't make sense. If you add Russ to the Warriors, they aren't winning 28 more game. They aren't even winning 100 percent of them. That doesn't make him any worse of a player. It's just a different context.

It's much easier to win more games to approach the average than it is to win (or lose) games to move away from the average. That's just statistics. That's why there are a ton of treadmill teams every year. To take a team from good to elite is just much harder, because games you really should lose statistically end up in wins. While Westbrook may be the cause of the Thunder getting so many wins, there are many more combinations of players who could have yielded that result than their are players who would get 60-plus wins.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#165 » by Pennebaker » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:48 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Pennebaker wrote:
inDe_eD wrote:
It's definitely a KKK conspiracy.


No, it's not that. It's really just a matter of taste.


Interesting. Okay, I'm going to respond to this noting up front I'm veering away from the race thing here because I don't want any part of that.

What is undeniably true is that different types of fans disagree about which types of players are the most valuable.

What is undeniably false though is the notion that it's simply a matter of taste. This isn't art, this a game with winners and losers. As such it ain't about taste, it's about perspective, and not all perspectives see things as clearly as others and there are always specific reasons why.


Basketball play is most definitely an art, but the real winners and losers revolving around the sport have absolutely nothing to do with winning and losing on the court.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#166 » by GoSu » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:49 pm

Pennebaker wrote:
Peja Stojakovic wrote:
Pennebaker wrote:Nope. Kawhi has long been overrated by white people.


too far bro. i get that he gets unnecessary props from the "plays the right way, no showboating etc" crowd but his impact is still undeniable via eye test or advanced stats or the win loss column


I'm actually offended by the amount of attention that Leonard gets for not "showboating", or not being more demonstrably proud. He essentially gets extra credit for removing his emotions - or, more accurately, for not scaring white people.

To them, his defense always looks better. His decisions always very clever.

No, it's not too far. I believe it's very accurate. Uncomfortably so!

No two eye tests are alike. I still see Kawhi as a beta, in a franchise sense. He's the modern Scottie Pippen.


Amazing insight! Care to elaborate more? :lol:
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#167 » by Pennebaker » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:51 pm

GoSu wrote:
Pennebaker wrote:
Peja Stojakovic wrote:
too far bro. i get that he gets unnecessary props from the "plays the right way, no showboating etc" crowd but his impact is still undeniable via eye test or advanced stats or the win loss column


I'm actually offended by the amount of attention that Leonard gets for not "showboating", or not being more demonstrably proud. He essentially gets extra credit for removing his emotions - or, more accurately, for not scaring white people.

To them, his defense always looks better. His decisions always very clever.

No, it's not too far. I believe it's very accurate. Uncomfortably so!

No two eye tests are alike. I still see Kawhi as a beta, in a franchise sense. He's the modern Scottie Pippen.


Amazing insight! Care to elaborate more? :lol:


I can, but this point is self-explanatory.
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Re: Zach Lowe: 

Post#168 » by KayDee35 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:03 pm

Pelly24 wrote:
KayDee35 wrote:
Bergmaniac wrote:
So the three-peat they achieved earlier doesn't count? 8-)

Come on, now. :banghead: I referred to one particular playoff series, not their body of work together, because if you watched it you could see the tug-of-war between Kobe and Shaq and how that worked out. There is a way that the Kobe-Shaq combo worked against good teams and part of it involved getting the high efficiency guy the ball in the right spots and getting the high usage guy to be more judicious in his shot selection and commit to moving the ball more.

Shaq was Finals MVP for their three-peat. The Pistons played him one-on-one for the most part in that Finals which was unheard of at the time.

I'll let Chauncey Billups lay it out for you:







WB and KD weren't used well together, imho. If you believe they were used to their full potential and there was no room for improvement as a combo, then you should also be willing to accept that they were at their absolute ceiling and just needed more help.

I thought there was significant room for improvement especially late in games.


What I've always disliked about this is how short-sighted it all is. Westbrook and Durant probably beat the 2008-2010 Lakers, and they probably beat the 2009 Magic, or the 2008 Celtics, or maybe even the 2007 Spurs. They were a championship caliber team that went up against an inexhaustible bench with a flawless system. It took a miracle game from Klay Thompson. I don't think KD and Russ were used to their best potential, i think Westbrook has taken a step forward this year with late game management, he's won a lot of close games. They prob. beat GSW this year if they stayed together, now that super-curry is erratic.


If you look at one of my more recent posts you can see how the KD-WB combo performed in the clutch and barring one season, it does not look good.

OKC looks great in the clutch this year but it might be an aberration as you can see from the data.

Nevertheless, WB is a great iso player and as you pointed out he can get hot and go on streaks that help his team win games. However, these successful scoring binges get noticed more than unsuccessful binges. Players like that also have the potential to shoot their team out of games and freeze their teammates out of several possessions in a row especially when they are the primary ball handler. But that gets lost in the mix.

KD does not get the touches or looks that maximize his potential in that scenario. For Russ to maximize his potential, he needs to go hog wild. The clutch stats over several seasons bear out why they were not a successful late game combo. Two talents like that should be absolutely dominant in the clutch. But they weren't.

Their teams are both better in the clutch this year. Maybe they got by on talent for most of the game but that talent wasn't enough to carry them through in crunch time.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#169 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:34 pm

Pennebaker wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Pennebaker wrote:
No, it's not that. It's really just a matter of taste.


Interesting. Okay, I'm going to respond to this noting up front I'm veering away from the race thing here because I don't want any part of that.

What is undeniably true is that different types of fans disagree about which types of players are the most valuable.

What is undeniably false though is the notion that it's simply a matter of taste. This isn't art, this a game with winners and losers. As such it ain't about taste, it's about perspective, and not all perspectives see things as clearly as others and there are always specific reasons why.


Basketball play is most definitely an art, but the real winners and losers revolving around the sport have absolutely nothing to do with winning and losing on the court.


Spoken like someone who would never be taken seriously by anyone who was actually involved with the league.

It's absolutely fine for you to consume basketball as art, and I certainly enjoy basketball on an aesthetic level else I wouldn't be on a board like this, but when you're in a conversation about MVPs, aesthetics are irrelevant.
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Re: Zach Lowe: 

Post#170 » by Pelly24 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:06 am

KayDee35 wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
KayDee35 wrote:
WB and KD weren't used well together, imho. If you believe they were used to their full potential and there was no room for improvement as a combo, then you should also be willing to accept that they were at their absolute ceiling and just needed more help.

I thought there was significant room for improvement especially late in games.


What I've always disliked about this is how short-sighted it all is. Westbrook and Durant probably beat the 2008-2010 Lakers, and they probably beat the 2009 Magic, or the 2008 Celtics, or maybe even the 2007 Spurs. They were a championship caliber team that went up against an inexhaustible bench with a flawless system. It took a miracle game from Klay Thompson. I don't think KD and Russ were used to their best potential, i think Westbrook has taken a step forward this year with late game management, he's won a lot of close games. They prob. beat GSW this year if they stayed together, now that super-curry is erratic.


If you look at one of my more recent posts you can see how the KD-WB combo performed in the clutch and barring one season, it does not look good.

OKC looks great in the clutch this year but it might be an aberration as you can see from the data.

Nevertheless, WB is a great iso player and as you pointed out he can get hot and go on streaks that help his team win games. However, these successful scoring binges get noticed more than unsuccessful binges. Players like that also have the potential to shoot their team out of games and freeze their teammates out of several possessions in a row especially when they are the primary ball handler. But that gets lost in the mix.

KD does not get the touches or looks that maximize his potential in that scenario. For Russ to maximize his potential, he needs to go hog wild. The clutch stats over several seasons bear out why they were not a successful late game combo. Two talents like that should be absolutely dominant in the clutch. But they weren't.

Their teams are both better in the clutch this year. Maybe they got by on talent for most of the game but that talent wasn't enough to carry them through in crunch time.



I get the idea behind what you're saying, but I think you're overstating their flaws in the clutch. They never won 66 games, but ultimately, what matters more is the playoffs. Given their track record and ability to do everything on the floor well, i can;t think of better players to pair, except for LeBron and KD.

Russ is a good, but not great ISO player from what I can tell, but maybe his volume messes it up. I think the late game part is just overrated to begin with. The fact is, no matter what their clutch rating says, they went to the WCF at least every single time they were both healthy from 2011 on. They never lost a series that they were expected to win going in. Last year, against GSW, they simply were not as good of a team. Given the circumstances, I can't really see what more they could've done. They didn't really have much spacing, their secondary role players were pretty weak when comparing them to GSW's (Harrison Barnes, who's now proven to be a legit 21 ppg 56 TS% scorer, Iggy 2015 Finals MVP, Diaw versatile big man, Barbosa former 6MOTY, Livingston, 6'7" guard can pass, shoot, handle the ball, etc.). At the end of the day, Westbrook and KD both had to do too much to win. All Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson actually had to do was score and play adequate defense. Westbrook had to distribute, score, play defense and score a LOT. Same with KD. No easy shots for either of them, ever, and KD was uncharacteristically off from 3 the whole playoffs. GSW was just too deep, but even then, it took a legendary game 6 from Klay for them to get it done.

So my question is, what is KD's ideal scenario? Everyone's ideal scenario is playing on GSW, but it's just not realistic. If KD was on Houston they'd win 60+ games, but they're likely losing in the second round, which is still worse than KD+Westbrook. The fact is, Westbrook and KD only lost to Peak LeBron (Arguably the first or second greatest peak ever), 2014 Spurs (who also destroyed a more a somewhat more well-balanced miami heat) and the 2016 Warriors, who won 73 games.

What you said about Westbrook can also be said about 1988 Michael Jordan (MJ was clearly better), but the point is, Westbrook's never had a better option than what he has. Westbrook's gunning won them at least one or two games in last year's WCF. KD wasn't hitting shots, so someone had to do something. Westbrook had the ability to do it. Wasn't pretty, but it worked. Same thing this year. The Thunder don't have anyone that can take over a game besides him, so at the end of games he's always the best option.

I think Westbrook "reaching his potential" is interesting. I don't think he's necessarily a better player now than he was in 2014-2016, it's just that the role he's in now calls for him to use all of his powers. You're seeing near the absolute limits of what one guard can do for an awful team. In this case, Westbrook's taking a 20 win squad to about 45-48 wins.
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Re: Zach Lowe: 

Post#171 » by KayDee35 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:17 pm

Pelly24 wrote:
KayDee35 wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
What I've always disliked about this is how short-sighted it all is. Westbrook and Durant probably beat the 2008-2010 Lakers, and they probably beat the 2009 Magic, or the 2008 Celtics, or maybe even the 2007 Spurs. They were a championship caliber team that went up against an inexhaustible bench with a flawless system. It took a miracle game from Klay Thompson. I don't think KD and Russ were used to their best potential, i think Westbrook has taken a step forward this year with late game management, he's won a lot of close games. They prob. beat GSW this year if they stayed together, now that super-curry is erratic.


If you look at one of my more recent posts you can see how the KD-WB combo performed in the clutch and barring one season, it does not look good.

OKC looks great in the clutch this year but it might be an aberration as you can see from the data.

Nevertheless, WB is a great iso player and as you pointed out he can get hot and go on streaks that help his team win games. However, these successful scoring binges get noticed more than unsuccessful binges. Players like that also have the potential to shoot their team out of games and freeze their teammates out of several possessions in a row especially when they are the primary ball handler. But that gets lost in the mix.

KD does not get the touches or looks that maximize his potential in that scenario. For Russ to maximize his potential, he needs to go hog wild. The clutch stats over several seasons bear out why they were not a successful late game combo. Two talents like that should be absolutely dominant in the clutch. But they weren't.

Their teams are both better in the clutch this year. Maybe they got by on talent for most of the game but that talent wasn't enough to carry them through in crunch time.



I get the idea behind what you're saying, but I think you're overstating their flaws in the clutch. They never won 66 games, but ultimately, what matters more is the playoffs. Given their track record and ability to do everything on the floor well, i can;t think of better players to pair, except for LeBron and KD.

Russ is a good, but not great ISO player from what I can tell, but maybe his volume messes it up. I think the late game part is just overrated to begin with. The fact is, no matter what their clutch rating says, they went to the WCF at least every single time they were both healthy from 2011 on. They never lost a series that they were expected to win going in. Last year, against GSW, they simply were not as good of a team. Given the circumstances, I can't really see what more they could've done. They didn't really have much spacing, their secondary role players were pretty weak when comparing them to GSW's (Harrison Barnes, who's now proven to be a legit 21 ppg 56 TS% scorer, Iggy 2015 Finals MVP, Diaw versatile big man, Barbosa former 6MOTY, Livingston, 6'7" guard can pass, shoot, handle the ball, etc.). At the end of the day, Westbrook and KD both had to do too much to win. All Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson actually had to do was score and play adequate defense. Westbrook had to distribute, score, play defense and score a LOT. Same with KD. No easy shots for either of them, ever, and KD was uncharacteristically off from 3 the whole playoffs. GSW was just too deep, but even then, it took a legendary game 6 from Klay for them to get it done.

So my question is, what is KD's ideal scenario? Everyone's ideal scenario is playing on GSW, but it's just not realistic. If KD was on Houston they'd win 60+ games, but they're likely losing in the second round, which is still worse than KD+Westbrook. The fact is, Westbrook and KD only lost to Peak LeBron (Arguably the first or second greatest peak ever), 2014 Spurs (who also destroyed a more a somewhat more well-balanced miami heat) and the 2016 Warriors, who won 73 games.

What you said about Westbrook can also be said about 1988 Michael Jordan (MJ was clearly better), but the point is, Westbrook's never had a better option than what he has. Westbrook's gunning won them at least one or two games in last year's WCF. KD wasn't hitting shots, so someone had to do something. Westbrook had the ability to do it. Wasn't pretty, but it worked. Same thing this year. The Thunder don't have anyone that can take over a game besides him, so at the end of games he's always the best option.

I think Westbrook "reaching his potential" is interesting. I don't think he's necessarily a better player now than he was in 2014-2016, it's just that the role he's in now calls for him to use all of his powers. You're seeing near the absolute limits of what one guard can do for an awful team. In this case, Westbrook's taking a 20 win squad to about 45-48 wins.


Russ is the most explosive the league has seen for a long time which makes him great at creating shots in ISO plays. WB is somewhere between MJ and AI in terms of efficiency. Like them, he is a high usage guy and can throw the defense off balance with his speed and penetration. He benefits from having players around him who can enhance his style of play by spreading the floor, crashing the boards, and playing solid D. His current squad isn't a perfect fit but with a few tweaks he could lower his usage a little and still have a big impact.

Durant is a shooter who needs the ball in the right spots for his game to be at its peak. He benefits from having good passers who know when and where to get the ball to him. When he is set up like Reggie Miller, Rip Hamilton, or Klay, he is very efficient. When he has to dribble less, his turnovers go down and his FG% goes up. A pass first PG would be ideal for KD along with some spacing and slashers to make the defense move. GS is not the ideal scenario but it's a good enough fit and a good deal better than how OKC used him.

When people criticize KD for being on a loaded team, the implication is that he would to do less and impact the game less while getting more wins. However, in just his first season, his stats and impact are pretty close to his OKC days. His WS/48 is 2nd in the NBA, for example.

KD and WB were two individually great talents who happened to be on the same team. They didn't make the other player better. They didn't cover for the other player's weakness. And unlike many super-talented duos of the past - MJ-Pip, Kobe-Shaq, Stock-Malone - their game style and impact aren't dependent on the presence of the other player or another player of a similar nature. Instead, they sometimes got in each other's way. Since the 2010-11 season, Russ has had a higher usage than KD despite shooting at significantly lower efficiency.

I don't hear people talking about how good they were as a combo, because they weren't. They were just tremendous players wearing the same uniform.

And maybe they would have figured out how to play together better and enable their teammates to play better but I didn't see signs of that.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#172 » by OkcSinceSGA » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:59 pm

Harden or Kawhi will win it. Both teams were expected to take steps back and did the opposite. I kinda lean Harden because many said the Rockets wouldn't even make the playoffs. Mike D'Antoni who I never stopped believing in for the right team will win COY.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#173 » by inDe_eD » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:14 pm

Pennebaker wrote:
I'm actually offended by the amount of attention that Leonard gets for not "showboating", or not being more demonstrably proud. He essentially gets extra credit for removing his emotions - or, more accurately, for not scaring white people.

To them, his defense always looks better. His decisions always very clever.

No, it's not too far. I believe it's very accurate. Uncomfortably so!

No two eye tests are alike. I still see Kawhi as a beta, in a franchise sense. He's the modern Scottie Pippen.


How does this extra amount of attention manifest itself, I'm just curious? I can find 10 different MVP articles written in the last week that all have a phrase along the lines of "oh don't forget Kawhi" or "He's in the conversation". In fact, I'd posit exactly the opposite: Kawhi actually loses points because of his low-key behavior, which could in fact hurt his mvp chances.

I'm sorry your perceived notion of who white people like dampens your feelings on certain players.
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Re: Zach Lowe: 

Post#174 » by Pelly24 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:54 am

KayDee35 wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
KayDee35 wrote:Russ is the most explosive the league has seen for a long time which makes him great at creating shots in ISO plays. WB is somewhere between MJ and AI in terms of efficiency. Like them, he is a high usage guy and can throw the defense off balance with his speed and penetration. He benefits from having players around him who can enhance his style of play by spreading the floor, crashing the boards, and playing solid D. His current squad isn't a perfect fit but with a few tweaks he could lower his usage a little and still have a big impact.

Durant is a shooter who needs the ball in the right spots for his game to be at its peak. He benefits from having good passers who know when and where to get the ball to him. When he is set up like Reggie Miller, Rip Hamilton, or Klay, he is very efficient. When he has to dribble less, his turnovers go down and his FG% goes up. A pass first PG would be ideal for KD along with some spacing and slashers to make the defense move. GS is not the ideal scenario but it's a good enough fit and a good deal better than how OKC used him.

When people criticize KD for being on a loaded team, the implication is that he would to do less and impact the game less while getting more wins. However, in just his first season, his stats and impact are pretty close to his OKC days. His WS/48 is 2nd in the NBA, for example.

KD and WB were two individually great talents who happened to be on the same team. They didn't make the other player better. They didn't cover for the other player's weakness. And unlike many super-talented duos of the past - MJ-Pip, Kobe-Shaq, Stock-Malone - their game style and impact aren't dependent on the presence of the other player or another player of a similar nature. Instead, they sometimes got in each other's way. Since the 2010-11 season, Russ has had a higher usage than KD despite shooting at significantly lower efficiency.

I don't hear people talking about how good they were as a combo, because they weren't. They were just tremendous players wearing the same uniform.

And maybe they would have figured out how to play together better and enable their teammates to play better but I didn't see signs of that.


I get what you're saying, they weren't players that optimized each other's talents. I think that's fair to say, I just think that sometimes players are so good it simply doesn't matter, and Russ and KD are a perfect example of that. I'm sure if they played on a team with more spacing they would have beat GSW, an all time great team. KD's impact may have stayed the same while Westbrook's has gone up a good bit, but stats don't capture everythig, but they put in work when they were together, and I think, given their ability to score, pass, handle the ball, play defense and dominate games physically. Those two on this year's Thunder--which is a horribly shallow squad--are most definitely beating San Antonio and or the Rockets, and they'd also have a decent shot at beating last year's GSW team. It's hard to match that impact.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#175 » by bondom34 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:18 am

OK last post, but we're 9 years into Russ getting discredited.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#176 » by Pennebaker » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:18 am

inDe_eD wrote:
Pennebaker wrote:
I'm actually offended by the amount of attention that Leonard gets for not "showboating", or not being more demonstrably proud. He essentially gets extra credit for removing his emotions - or, more accurately, for not scaring white people.

To them, his defense always looks better. His decisions always very clever.

No, it's not too far. I believe it's very accurate. Uncomfortably so!

No two eye tests are alike. I still see Kawhi as a beta, in a franchise sense. He's the modern Scottie Pippen.


How does this extra amount of attention manifest itself, I'm just curious? I can find 10 different MVP articles written in the last week that all have a phrase along the lines of "oh don't forget Kawhi" or "He's in the conversation". In fact, I'd posit exactly the opposite: Kawhi actually loses points because of his low-key behavior, which could in fact hurt his mvp chances.

I'm sorry your perceived notion of who white people like dampens your feelings on certain players.


It's not a perceived notion. It is an actual fact. White people love the Spurs and they also love Kawhi because he's the closest thing in temperamant to Tim Duncan - another player that white people adored (especially sportswriters). And most basketball writers are white people. Obviously Zach Lowe is white. I'm the only white dude that I know that thinks Leonard is overrated.

Btw, those Spurs vs Heat Finals were also in fact a case of white vs black fanbases. And this issue was covered at the time - so it's not something I'm inventing here. And it's the same with Golden State and the Cavs i.e. in that matchup, most white fans will root for Golden State and most black fans for LeBron.

So Kawhi (also applies to Steph and Klay) gets extra credit from white people for not offending the sensibilities of white fans, in other words.

This is the same reason why there was a major race divide between fans of Joe Frazier and fans of Muhammad Ali. Frazier was quiet and unspoken, but still driven and talented. White people gravitated towards him because he didn't scare them as much as Ali did, to put it bluntly.

How does it manifest itself? Any time a black sports celebrity exerts their authority against traditional white authority (owners/other owners/fans in past decades) or expresses an opinion which runs contrary to the opinion of the white majority, white people recoil. This is kind of why white people loved Michael Jordan and Will Smith - meaning that they were never controversial. But Kareem Abdul Jabbar REALLY IS a devastating rival to Jordan's throne! If only he never converted to Islam and never rejected the method of white rule in the 60's and 70's, he'd have a more comfy popular standing today!

Come to think of it - and this is very apropros to modern times - but both Muhammad Ali and Kareem Abdul Jabbar were slighted by white sports fans for the fact that they converted to Islam.

White fans kind of made up for it in the 80', 90's and 00's by elevating both up into a quasi-white sports pantheon (not official), but I don't think white people as a group have accepted and processed WHY white people rejected them initially (misunderstanding of history and an irrational fear of the familiar unknown, etc.).

But I digress...

To put it short, I think Kawhi is overrated and is almost certainly not "the MVP of the whole league".
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#177 » by Prez » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:48 am

So we're just gonna ignore that the Spurs are 4-1 without Kawhi this year, and 11-4 without him the past two years combined?

Kawhi's awesome, but let's be honest, the burden on him to carry a team isn't even in the same galaxy as guys like Harden and Westbrook. If you want to go by the unstated media definition of MVP as the best player on the team with the best or close to the best record, then sure. But if we're talking MVP according to what it actually means, as in the player who is most valuable to his team and whose team (even a good team) would utterly collapse without him, it's not Kawhi and I don't really see an argument for him.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#178 » by Pelly24 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:22 am

Milbuck wrote:So we're just gonna ignore that the Spurs are 4-1 without Kawhi this year, and 11-4 without him the past two years combined?

Kawhi's awesome, but let's be honest, the burden on him to carry a team isn't even in the same galaxy as guys like Harden and Westbrook. If you want to go by the unstated media definition of MVP as the best player on the team with the best or close to the best record, then sure. But if we're talking MVP according to what it actually means, as in the player who is most valuable to his team and whose team (even a good team) would utterly collapse without him, it's not Kawhi and I don't really see an argument for him.



This. I hate the checklist approach. Spurs win no fewer than 47 games with Kawhi and a replacement level SF. Without Harden the Rockets win 35 games maybe. Without Westbrook, the Thunder win 15-20 games tops.


Interestingly enough, now that Harden has Lou Williams? His team is pretty stacked lol. He's the straw that stirs the drink, but a roster with Eric Gordon, Lou Will, Trevor Ariza, Patrick Beverley, Ryan Anderson ... that's five lethal long range shooters and all but maybe Lou Will and Anderson are quality defenders. Houston will want an All Star I'd imagine, but they've definitely built a great team around Harden.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#179 » by Pennebaker » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:26 am

Black Jack wrote:Trade him now while he still has value!!!

I can dig him as MVP over Westy and Harden. Especially given the Spurs are probably a star player short in the comparison with GSW and CLE but yet they have the #2 record in the league.


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Re: Zach Lowe: 

Post#180 » by KayDee35 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:54 pm

Pelly24 wrote:
KayDee35 wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:


I get what you're saying, they weren't players that optimized each other's talents. I think that's fair to say, I just think that sometimes players are so good it simply doesn't matter, and Russ and KD are a perfect example of that. I'm sure if they played on a team with more spacing they would have beat GSW, an all time great team. KD's impact may have stayed the same while Westbrook's has gone up a good bit, but stats don't capture everythig, but they put in work when they were together, and I think, given their ability to score, pass, handle the ball, play defense and dominate games physically. Those two on this year's Thunder--which is a horribly shallow squad--are most definitely beating San Antonio and or the Rockets, and they'd also have a decent shot at beating last year's GSW team. It's hard to match that impact.


KD and WB are one of the best duos of all time. No doubt.

But they didn't complement each other like some of those other duos. KD's ceiling with OKC was lower than it is with GS. Player ceilings are not supposed to go up when they move to better teams. That speaks to how poorly KD's potential was realized with OKC.

But there's no denying their impact despite being an ill-fitting duo. I think KD realized that they did not fit well together and decided to move on. It appears that he was right.

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